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Boy or girl?

Boy
30 (47.6%)
Girl
33 (52.4%)

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Author Topic: Is Birdo a boy or girl?  (Read 59007 times)

« Reply #120 on: June 13, 2014, 09:21:51 PM »
I actually had a debate with a friend about this when we had a N64 tournament a while ago. We're both on the older side now (late 20s) and are old enough to have played Mario 2 when it was being sold for NES.

After about ten minutes of discussion, we believe Birdo is a boy who wants to be a girl. The Mario 2 manual did come up, and we believe Nintendo uses the female pronouns in newer media because Birdo has decided to adhere to the female gender. This actually happens quite often with people who are unsure of their gender at some point and decide to live as the opposite gender. There have been cases in the news about this recently in which the family and friends of such a person would start using the opposite gender pronouns and identification. This, I believe, is what happened with Birdo.

Notice how Birdo has no bow in Mario 2. The later versions do have a bow (although I really can't remember if the Mario All Stars game on the SNES has a bow). This is, to me, equivalent to someone unsure about their gender eventually going to identification through clothing and the like. It reminds me of a case I heard on the news about a year or so ago where a boy from a western state (Colorado? Texas?) started to dress and look (i.e. long hair) like a girl. (This was the child who wasn't allowed to use the girls' bathroom, which led to a court case).

Someone mentioned eggs. The thing is, we don't really know much about Birdo's species, and if eggs are being shot out of what appears to be a nose, this definitely isn't the classic egg-laying creature we're used to. Perhaps they aren't really even eggs at all and only resemble them. In Mario 2, after all, you don't see them cracking open. Birdo was also in Mario RPG and I don't remember anything like that happening there either. They're more or less projectiles, and it could be more a means of self-defense than reproduction.

OK--I hope this post wasn't over-political or anything like that!!

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #121 on: June 13, 2014, 09:23:33 PM »
There wasn't much of a need for a debate.

Being a dude in drag is basically Birdo's entire schtick in Japan.

Nintendo of America on the other hand acknowledged it at first, then started calling him a girl, then didn't mention his gender at all, and now acknowledges it again but doesn't mention it directly.

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #122 on: June 14, 2014, 08:39:19 PM »
I think there's room for debate on whether Birdo is actually transgender (male-bodied at birth; fully identifies as female; may or may not have had gender confirmation surgery / hormone replacement therapy / etc.), or just a drag queen (a man who dresses as a woman as a performance, but may still identify as a man).

The original Japanese descriptions could lean more toward drag queen -- "he thinks he's a girl" just being a flippant way of referring to a male-bodied person wearing women's clothes, like when you see a cat sitting in a chair in a human-like fashion and you say "Aw, look, it thinks it's people!" But as they go on, the descriptions sound less like it's an act and more like it's just the way Birdo fully identifies, even if the Japanese manual writers don't respect that -- "A pink dinosaur who's convinced he's a woman, and is a young maiden at heart," from Itadaki Street DS; "He's a pink dinosaur(?) who firmly believes he's a woman. He gets extremely happy when people call him 'Cathy,'" from the Japanese Brawl trophy.

So I'm going to use female pronouns when referring to Birdo.
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #123 on: June 14, 2014, 08:40:49 PM »
Birdo is usually voiced by a drag queen in Japan though, so I'm going with drag queen.

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #124 on: June 14, 2014, 09:15:31 PM »
One thing that I think does complicate the question of "Does Birdo really identify as female, or is it an act?" is that all Mario characters are always acting. Miyamoto's vision of the games is like a Popeye cartoon or a Muppet movie, where Mario and Bowser take on the roles of hero and villain for one game, but can change roles for another, while backstage they would exist as their actual selves, as actors. So whenever we see Birdo, she's acting, just like every other character.

But even if it's the case that Birdo the Actor is actually a cisgender male playing the part of a transwoman or a crossdressing man, we're seeing her while she's performing, and it would be rude to break up the act. She's indicated that she wants to be addressed as female, and it's only polite to respect that.

(Also, Tails is voiced by an adult woman; that doesn't mean he's an adult woman.)
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #125 on: June 14, 2014, 09:34:08 PM »
I don't think Japan and Japanese creators are that up on gender politics. Especially not whomever came up with Birdo. He's just a dude who ("erroneously") thinks he's a girl. And since Birdo is a fictional character and can't tell us off for not using the right pronoun, I don't think it matters if I call him a 'he'. At least calling him a 'he' lets people know that yes, Birdo is not biologically a woman (if you want to go as deep as using terms such as "biologically" on Mario characters of all things).

« Reply #126 on: July 05, 2014, 11:01:34 AM »
One thing that I think does complicate the question of "Does Birdo really identify as female, or is it an act?" is that all Mario characters are always acting. Miyamoto's vision of the games is like a Popeye cartoon or a Muppet movie, where Mario and Bowser take on the roles of hero and villain for one game, but can change roles for another, while backstage they would exist as their actual selves, as actors.

Sorry to be a bit off topic here, but this point interested me so much I literally just made a profile to ask about it. (I would have posted a new thread, but since I've never posted here before, a-hijacking I will go.) Do you know of any interview where Miyamoto stated this directly? I've waded through years of interviews and haven't found any comments he's made to this sentiment. It's not that I don't believe you (that's totally something he would say), I just would like to have a link handy for all future arguments about X or Y where this would clear things up. (These kinds of discussions do tend to crop up where ever I go.)
It also would make for some interesting discussions as to which kind of theater it's more like. I mean, since Miyamoto's Japanese, we might find some credence in attributing it to Kabuki rather than a more western kind of movie, or theater. Then if we stretch it, there's a small chance Princess Peach is a man and Bowser is just a big mask. Any way, I just was wondering if you have an article link-- it'd save me a lot of searching through interviews. Thanks either way, though. That's a new way of looking at the Mario series for me. (Makes a few things like everyone playing tennis together seem actually in character all the sudden...) 

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #127 on: July 05, 2014, 02:43:52 PM »
I remember fairly recently a topic or something we had about how the enemies are treated almost like individuals who appear in many places at once, with even SMB1's manual introducing each one like "This is Goomba, he has no sense of self-preservation" and "This is Bullet Bill, he is honorable enough to not shoot Mario from point blank" etc. Which works really well with the many enemies named with a common given name, and changed my perspective on how generic enemies will sometimes be playable in Mario Kart and such. I think the "actors portraying characters for today's misadventure" idea had something to do with that. I dunno how many sources were cited then, though.

What's interesting to me is how far back that apparently goes, even though so much of Mario's world has changed over the years. The red stage curtains over Super Mario Bros. 2's character select screen and SMB3's title and credits support it. And supposedly, the plan early on was to have Mario appear in all Nintendo's games in some role, like he does as the referee in Punch-Out!!.
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

« Reply #128 on: July 05, 2014, 03:06:15 PM »
It certainly adds some deeper dynamics on characters. It's less like "oh, another spin off" and more like "ah, we get to see what they do in their off time!" Like Dry Bone's apparent affinity for cart racing and soccer, but (by omission) we can assume he's not too big of a fan of playing tennis. They're like celebrities, rather than placeholders in that respect. An interesting idea, to assume all games are canon.

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #129 on: July 05, 2014, 03:12:41 PM »
The exact quote was from this Game Informer interview in 2012:

Quote
Time and again, Bowser kidnaps Peach. Why do Mario and Peach still race go-karts and play tennis with him?

SM: If you're familiar with things like Popeye and some of the old comic characters, you would oftentimes see this cast of characters that takes on different roles depending on the comic or cartoon. They might be businessman in one [cartoon] or a pirate in another. Depending on the story that was being told, they would change roles. So, to a certain degree, I look at our characters in a similar way and feel that they can take on different roles in different games. It's more like they're one big family, or maybe a troupe of actors.

This was the same interview that told us Mario and Luigi don't have a last name, the Koopalings aren't Bowser's children in "our current story", Mario's hair is naturally brown, and Dr. Mario "was maybe, in some way, not necessarily legitimate."

And with the character-species thing, it's kind of like Pokémon. Cubone is a Pokémon who wears his dead mother's skull. You can catch a Cubone. You can catch multiple Cubone. You can put a female Cubone in the daycare with another Pokémon and she will lay an egg and Cubone will hatch out of the egg, already wearing the skull of his dead mother. You can even have Cubone who are each other's full siblings, each of them wearing their dead mother's skull, and have them in a party along with their mother. (Granted, part of the reason Cubone is so bad about this is because breeding wasn't invented until Gen 2, but still)

Welcome to the fora, by the way!
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

« Reply #130 on: July 05, 2014, 04:34:24 PM »
the plan early on was to have Mario appear in all Nintendo's games in some role
I can only imagine.

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #131 on: July 05, 2014, 05:09:51 PM »
Heheh. I dunno if it meant that he'd be the star of whatever the genre of the day was or if it meant stuff like the referee cameo would happen more often. What if Talon and Mr. EAD were actually Mario, having auditioned to play a dairy farmer and a racing android with a terrible car
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #132 on: July 05, 2014, 07:18:14 PM »
I like to think they're more like Mario's "Elseworlds" counterparts. James McCloud would also fall into that, as would the Octoman from Star Fox Command. And maybe Nav-Com from Star Tropics.

(Granted, part of the reason Cubone is so bad about this is because breeding wasn't invented until Gen 2, but still)

Sadly it seems Cubone is a victim of segregation of gameplay and story. It's kinda like how they obviously wanted to give the player a greater pool of enemies to fight in Kingdom Hearts 2, but then had to bend over backward to write Nobodies into the story. I don't think there are any Pokémon introduced after Gen 2 whose 'Dex entries say anything about family members. I bet Cubone would have some other less-specific explanation for the skull on its had had it been introduced after Gen 1.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 09:38:15 PM by The Chef »

« Reply #133 on: July 05, 2014, 08:07:09 PM »
The exact quote was from this Game Informer interview in 2012:

This was the same interview that told us Mario and Luigi don't have a last name, the Koopalings aren't Bowser's children in "our current story", Mario's hair is naturally brown, and Dr. Mario "was maybe, in some way, not necessarily legitimate."

Thank you! That saved me like, a billion interviews to read through! (I might go back and read them anyway, though. lol)

BriGuy92

  • Luck of the Irish
« Reply #134 on: July 06, 2014, 03:10:28 PM »
Off-topic, but I've got a Firefox extension installed called Cloud to Butt Plus (because, you see, I am a mature adult), so I got this in The Chef's post:
James McButt

It made me chuckle. Again, I assure you, only because I am a mature adult.
Know the most important contribution of the organ Fund science girls type. It's true!

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