Fungi Forums
Video Games => Video Game Chat => Topic started by: Glorb on March 31, 2007, 12:28:49 PM
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Personally, I say no. Used games have already been sold once new, and so it's not like the game developers and publishers are actually losing anything. The other day, I was at GameStop, and some random jerk saw I was buying a used game that was $50 new. He went up to me and said "Hey, y'know, you're ruining the industry by buying used games." Being the civilized person I am, I suppressed the urge to say "Back off, jerk", and instead replied that the game had already been sold for $50, and I was simply buying it for a reduced price that goes to someone else.
It's not like Ford or Lincoln sees someone buy a used car and says "Dang it, there goes our profits right down the crapper!" They already made a profit, and it's downright greedy for them to feel cheated if they can't make twice as much off a single product. I, for one, don't have $50 to burn on a game I might hate, and so I pay less for a game that's already been sold.
It's a similar deal with downloadable games. I don't want to pay $60 to download some PC game I might be able to get for $50, especially because I have dial-up and it'll take four days to get the thing on my hard drive. Same goes for downloadable mini-games on consoles: I have a PS2 and GameCube, and I have no intention right now of getting a 360 or PS3 (or even Wii), since they all, in some way or another, require getting broadband, which my family simply can't afford right now.
So, in closing, I'd like to see everyone's opinion on this topic. That's why this is a pole, of course.
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My opinion: To heck with the industry! Cheap games!
Xbox 360 and PS3 and Wii do not require broadband. That's only if you wish to use the internet features. You can still play games on them.
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I say no. But I don't buy used games, since I like to have the box, manual, and any other swag that comes with it.
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I buy used games only under these circumstances:
-The game is not sold new anymore
-I have the manual, box, and all for the game, but the game itself is lost or otherwise unplayable
There's nothing wrong with recycling. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Nintendo or whatever company put out the game made money off of that game when it was first purchased, so there's no reason it can't be resold.
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The massive prevalence of used games sales in today's market is the largest problem in the game industry today. The largest game-centric retailers out there (EBGames, Gamestop) are nowadays nothing more than pawn shops, receiving tiny quantities of new games and pushing used sales and trade-ins with every customer interaction bar none. Each used game sold amounts to exactly zero dollars going to anyone that had anything to do with creating and publishing the game. I've seen developer after developer say, "If you're going to buy our game used, just pirate it instead and save your money to buy something else (new)". So yes, used game sales take money away from developers. Funny you should mention this today, because check out the Penny Arcade newspost (http://www.penny-arcade.com/2007/03/30) for Friday.
As Tycho points out, luckily this will all become a moot point soon, as digital distribution cuts out the sniveling wretches of Gamestop and their ilk.
Say NO to used games.
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It's pretty tough to find new games I want (considering all the crap games released that push worthwhile purchases off the shelves), so I'm forced to deal with used games. However, I still can't find a copy of Gradius V, new or used. Yes, I know how long ago it was released, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't necessarily see it new at one of the stores around me (especially since I got my copy of Fantavision new a couple months ago).
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If I can't find a game new, I buy it from an online retailer.
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I only get paid $20 a month, if I'm lucky. You think I can afford a $50 game, plus shipping? Online sales aren't for me.
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I don't think selling used games is hurting the developers. If you think of it , they make more money that way, because when it first comes out, they make money that way; Then when it isn't popular any more, pepole sell there copy, then the pepole who couldn't afford it the first time around get to buy it.
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I get all my old games off of eBay.
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Since my local GameStop and Software Etc. switched to the EB Games Windows based POS and inventory system they are allowing customers to cancel pre-orders after the game comes out. I have canceled all my ten or so pre-orders, rolled the money onto other pre-orders and usually bought the games new elsewhere (often for less money). This way GameStop/Software Etc. will have new games in stock, I get a call when the game I want comes out, and I often save money. I hope these extra new games my stores have in stock are sold and thus become more money for the games developers.
I can understand GameStop business model though. It's a great plan for them even though it hurts the industry. They might buy a used game from someone for two dollars then sell it for twenty dollars. That makes them eighteen dollars (minus expenses) which is more than they make off of new games. The only real reason they do pre-orders and sell new games in general is to get people in the store. The Game Informer magazine and GameStop card serve the same purpose. I haven't bought a subscription/card in a long time, because I don't need them now that I'm a more picky shopper and only buy new games I know I'll like.
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The "I'm Poor" argument (WarpWrattler) and the "I don't understand the difference between a developer and a retailer" argument (PaperWario) have nothing to do with the question of the poll:
Do you think used game sales take away money from the developers?
Regardless of your opinion of Gamestop's business practices, the answer to the question is yes. The 6 voters for No are tards.
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The way I think about it, the company that makes the game expects one sale per unit. Let's say stores like Gamestop didn't exist, and if you wanted to buy used games, you had to get them from stores that only sell them new currently (Best Buy, Wal*Mart, etc) and all money gets distributed among the makers, as if it is being sold new again. That means these game-makers would be getting two-plus sales per unit, which, essentially, is like selling the game, taking it back, and selling it again for a larger total gain. I understand how, when you insert Gamestop, it looks as though those sales after the initial one are being "stolen" from the makers of the game. However, I don't think the game-makers should complain about not getting those after-sales (or, I don't think they should complain about losing money to the used game industry). I think after they sell the game, they should forget about that copy and focus on getting more copies sold. Complaining about lost money due to used game stores is like complaining because after you sold a car, some other guy sold it for more. Too bad! It's out of your hands.
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Lizard Dude is 100% right as far as in-print games goes. If a game is out of print and out of stock, the only way to find it is used, and heck if I'm not going to buy it used if I can.
That said, whenever possible I buy new games new. I'm not sure exactly how retail games work, because unless you're getting it direct from the publisher, I think the online retailer/game store already bought it from the company making it. I could be wrong.
I really don't understand what the heck Bobman is talking about.
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The first part of your post (bobman) has nothing to do with anything. You describe some sort of fantasy business model where games are bought from people used and then treated like a new game off the shelf, with money going to developers. This wouldn't happen if Gamestops didn't exist, because then used games wouldn't be getting bought back. They'd just sell more, ya know, new new games.
As for the second part of your post:
However, I don't think the game-makers should complain about not getting those after-sales (or, I don't think they should complain about losing money to the used game industry). I think after they sell the game, they should forget about that copy and focus on getting more copies sold.
Right. Focus on getting more copies sold. That's what the game companies are trying to do and that's what Gamestop is making impossible, on purpose. The stores only stock ludicrously low amounts of new product and push nothing but used upon the customer. And each of those used sales prevents a new sale of the same game.
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Yeah, I know my post was pretty confusing. It made sense to me, though.
I see what you're saying, Lizard Dude. Each used game is a lost potential new sale. I never really thought about it like that. In that case, it would indeed be a huge loss on the game-maker's end. That's not going to prevent me from buying used games, though.
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There's a similar situation in the music industry (which I consider one of the worst and most flawed business models currently in existence), except the MPAA is intentionally lowering the amount of CDs they put out in order to have an excuse for driving up prices and suing people for downloading MP3s. The performers aren't getting their money either way (many make more money from concerts and other merchandising than CD sales), so I don't see why it's so wrong to download music that only the recording industry will get, and don't deserve. The difference here is the fact that there isn't a standardized distribution medium for video games, and developers are still able to profit as long as copies of their games are being manufactured. There is no way to support the developers by buying a new game used. And you want to support the developers, because they're the guys making the games, and don't really go charge admission to play video games for two hours or something, equivalent to a rock concert. So, buy new games new. Because unlike most rock bands, they do make money from the retail product. And you want good developers to keep making games.
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The reason I buy a lot of my stuff used is because I'm not rich. Think about it. My family, while not dirt-poor, is only able to afford the most basic forms of Internet-related stuff, so digital distribution is out of the question for me; spending fifty bucks and four or five days to download Command & Conquer 3 on our computer is probably impossible, anyway. Consoles today require broadband for a lot of basic features like multiplayer, and games are shipping with less and less content so developers can milk even more money from consumers, content that I can't access either way. I'm tired of everyone acting like developers and punlishers like Nintendo and EA are small, fledgling underdogs, and used games are litterally taking money right of their pockets that would otherwise be spent on terrific, innovative games. I have yet to see this global effect destroy the industry and send it back to 1983 like everyone's predicting. People on both sides of this argument should see it in my shoes, or whatever that saying is; you'll learn that not everyone can afford buying new.
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Glorb has somewhat of a point. I don't make enough money to constantly buy new games new, and instead of saving up for one, I'd rather get two or three used games for the price of that new game. Also, yeah, if the used game industry is so horrible and is supposedly crushing the gaming industry, why haven't we seen a drop in game production yet? And if, eventually, the gaming industry does fall under due to used games (not likely), to put it bluntly, who cares? Video games shouldn't be your life, it should be a hobby, and if they stop making them, you still have the ones you bought previously. Keeping as much money as I can is more important to me than the gaming industry collapsing, because money can buy a lot of things, whereas games only keep me entertained for a while.
An exception to my always-buying-used-games style is DS and GBA games, but only because 1) they never have any good used DS and GBA games, and 2) used DS and GBA (but mostly DS) games tend to be only like, 5 bucks cheaper.
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I have yet to see this global effect destroy the industry and send it back to 1983 like everyone's predicting.
Well obviously...
Anyway Glorb, when everyone buys used games and no one buys new copies, it will be a problem.
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...But that may take a loong time, thanks to all you refuse-to-buy-games-used people.
Glorb: Since your internet is so slow, maybe you should sign up for Google's free Broadband program here. (http://www.google.com/tisp/)
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Glorb: Since your internet is so slow, maybe you should sign up for Google's free Broadband program here. (http://www.google.com/tisp/)
Hmm, I thought there was some saying about fools and other fools.
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They're dance partners?
Just for the record, LD, I never voted, so I'm certainly not one of those "no"s.
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Psst! MaxVance! I know it's a hoax
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Yes, I was talking about Glorb and Google.
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Oh. Nevermind then.
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And if, eventually, the gaming industry does fall under due to used games (not likely), to put it bluntly, who cares? Video games shouldn't be your life, it should be a hobby, and if they stop making them, you still have the ones you bought previously.
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flizarddude.kontek.net%2FWackyForum%2Fbaker-slowlook.gif&hash=8d93989969ad9bf2013591315ef90711)
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Beautiful! I'm putting that on my Post of the Year '07 list.
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What I dislike about the view that used games are evil is the whole "holier-than-thou" attitude everyone on that side of the argument seems to have. They always act like they're better than used game buyers, because they take extra special precautions to avoid collapsing the industry in one fell swoop. I mean, there's used DVDs. Used cars. Used underwear, I'll bet. And neither the automobile nor the underwear industry has experienced a horrible stock-market crash and sent to country into the next depression.
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Used underwear, I'll bet.
Ew. No. Grody. You're grody. No. Ew.
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It's called a yard sale.
Man do the residents of this house have to have one. I'm, personally, a total pack rat and will probably contribute only one or two objects, none of which will be video game related. But we have a multitude of old vases and stuff./me looks around the room
No, that's... you think I could pass that off as...? No no no, never...But who would want one of those?
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Used underwear was the focus of one of GameCrazy's ad's in an old issue of EGM I have.
As for used games, I rarely buy them because I usually buy my games when they're still new. Besides, the used section of my local GameStop has completely disappeared and GameCrazy has also reduced the used section to small glass cases.
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Are used games bad for the industry? Heck no. The company made the money when that copy was sold new. Used games help the gaming community: Say there is a game you want, but you either had no interest for it at the time or your parents wouldn't let you have a game console at the time, whatever. That's where used games come in handy. Heck, I bought my N64 and all of its games and accessories second hand
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Like I said before, used games that can't be bought new are fine. They don't enter into the equation. As for new games, "that company made money when that copy was sold new" doesn't cut it. It just doesn't.
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Haha. Just making a realistic point. I looked at the guy, looked away, and looked back, and noticed his eyes were in a different position. Creepy.
Are used games bad for the industry? Heck no. The company made the money when that copy was sold new. Used games help the gaming community: Say there is a game you want, but you either had no interest for it at the time or your parents wouldn't let you have a game console at the time, whatever. That's where used games come in handy. Heck, I bought my N64 and all of its games and accessories second hand
Sure, the company made money when that particular copy was sold new, but as Lizard Dude pointed out, when someone else buys that copy, they could have instead bought a new copy, which would be much more profitable for the developers. Thus, a drop in monetary intake for the developers.
Yeah. Used games that are no longer available new are a no-brainer. This point has been made a few times already.
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Haha. Just making a realistic point. I looked at the guy, looked away, and looked back, and noticed his eyes were in a different position. Creepy.
Tom Baker!
/me puts Lizard Dudes post at the top of the Post of the Year nominies.
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I'll put it this way: No. Somebody brought up this topic in EGM a while back, and I think the comparison to used car sales is pretty accurate. Really, what's the big deal here?
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My friend saw this topic and said that I stole a lot of what I said from EGM. I have no idea what he's talking about; I've never even seen that issue. But how is making a point that may or may have been in some magazine stealing?
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I think that we the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, should establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity. What do you guys think, pretty good idea, isn't it?
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Alright, you constitute. XD
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You are too. As am I.
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Video games don't lose 90% of their value when sold. So no, not like car sales.
bobman: Realistic point? So if people stop writing books, we should be content with the ones we already have? (I'm probably thinking fiction and stuff.)
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You don't have to be content with what you already have; I never said that. All I said was you already have your previous books, games, whatever. It's not like they're coming to your house and burning all of your books. You can still read.
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But I already know the ending!
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Ferenheit 650: The Temperature at Which Plastic Burns
I know, 650 is a random number, but I wanted to make that joke before anyone else.
Anyhoo, the pole doesn't lie; the majority of people here think used games won't destroy the industry. And besides, there have been used game sales for about ten years or more; it's not gonna happen. Enough people are buying new games to give the developers and publishers profit, so it's not like everyone is buying used games. I'll admit, if everyone bought used games, that would be a problem somehow, but that's not the case. Besides, in three or so years all game systems will use downloaded games, or games that require that you download the levels/characters/vehicles/weapons/cheat codes in addition to paying $70, so trust me, game developers will be getting tons of money.
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I don't think so. Nintendo at LEAST will stick to selling stuff via brick and mortar stores. Not EVERYONE has high-speed Internet.
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True dat. *has dial-up*
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the pole doesn't lie
I love this statement. For at least two reasons.
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Which are?
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You misspelled poll, and the opinion of a few people one one forum really doesn't matter either way.
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You misspelled poll, and the opinion of a few people one one forum really doesn't matter either way.
I love this statement for at least two reasons.
You misspelled "on", and I agree with your statement.
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And for the kicker, the poll doesn't even ask if you think used games will destroy the industry. It asks if used game sales take money away from developers, which the answer is blatantly and unarguably yes. Apparently nine people can't read or don't understand economics.
If it asked will used games destroy the industry, I would have voted no.
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Eh, I said that to be dramatic. Even the majority of people who voted on the
Pole Poland poll didn't think that used games are BAD for the industry. So there.
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I agree with Lizard Dude and voted "yes".
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I've only bought one used game that was currently in circulation, but I bought it still in the wrapper from a friend of mine who received two copies for his birthday. I just compensated him for purchasing it for me. There is no doubt that it hurts the industry, but the industry shouldn't (in my opinion) charge $50 a pop. They could sell more games by lowering the price, then could make a lot more money. I'm sure there is a way to model this equation with linear programming, but I'm far too lazy at 10:38 PM.
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In summary,
I know used game sales take money away from the developers.
I think used game sales are bad for the industry.
I don't think used game sales will destroy the industry.
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I voted no because I was thinking games that are no longer in production.
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I know used game sales take money away from the developers.
Really? Used game sales actually take away physical money that the developers already made?
There is no doubt that it hurts the industry
Show me actual, hard, definitive proof and I'll believe that view.
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Really? Used game sales actually take away physical money that the developers already made?
Of course not and no one ever said that. Used games sales take away the chance for new copies of that game to sell. GameStop makes it their business to sell used over new, every time.
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Here's a post from an actual developer: Give it a read (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=106822#post106822).
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I believe that, if the majority of people were to buy used games at a substantially lower price than new games, then there would be a problem. However (and I don't have any actual figures with me), I estimate roughly 20%-ish of people buy most or all of their games used, so it's not a problem. But I think the best proof of this is that no developer has actually gone out of business because everyone bought their games used. The argument that used game sales are hurting the industry is pretty much just a theory, with no actual real-life examples to go by.
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How did you come upon that (low, I suspect) estimate?
But I think the best proof of this is that no developer has actually gone out of business because everyone bought their games used.
How the heck do you know?
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The "I'm Poor" argument (WarpWrattler) and the "I don't understand the difference between a developer and a retailer" argument (PaperWario) have nothing to do with the question of the poll:
Do you think used game sales take away money from the developers?
Regardless of your opinion of Gamestop's business practices, the answer to the question is yes. The 6 voters for No are tards.
I have to agree with Lizard Dude about that, so I'm gonna say yes. But I still buy all my games used if I can :D
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I bought both Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 2 used not only because I didn't want to pay a large price, but new copies weren't available.
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And that's exactly how GameStop wants it.
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My friend bought Metroid Prime recently (new, I believe) for one dollar at Borders. Must have been having a clearance sale.
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Since when does Borders sell games ?!?!?!?
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They've had a small rack of new games since I can remember, over by the CD section. That's where I bought my copy of NFL 2K5. Maybe they don't anymore. Maybe that's why they were one dollar.
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Here's how it works for me:
I wanted The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, new. I go to, like, every game store there is in this town looking for it shortly after Christmas, thinking for sure that a good 3-year-old game shoudl still be in circulation. Other, older games still are, yeah?
Nowhere. So G-Dawg was kind enough to get it for me used for my birthday.
But today as I go to get Super Paper Mario, I see a line of Wind Waker boxes on the shelf, undoubtedly new.
Argh! At any rate, I have the game...
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This is a little late, but...
How the heck do you know?
Well, how the heck do you know it's wrong? Seriously, if everyone's going to say I'm wrong, or right, then simply saying so isn't enough. I'll admit that the 20% estimate is just that - an estimate. However, it's safe to say that a very small portion of game buyers buy their games exclusively used. Give me real proof (more than, say, Wikipedia) to the contrary and I'll agree.
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Um, of course game companies have folded because of not getting enough revenue from the games they made. Of course, that's not always due to GameStop selling and re-selling a limited number of used copies, but GameStop is still evil for doing it.
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Okay, but quit just saying it happened. Tell me stuff like what company(ies) went under due to drastically lowered revenue thanks to used game sales, and proof that it actually happened (like a sales chart or whatever), and I might believe you. So far, everyone on the anti-used argument here hasn't presented a shred of actual proof.
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It's not as though you've provided any proof to the contrary either.
Yes, I realize that this post does not add credibility to my argument.
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In EGM they listed a few games that totally flopped, for one reason or another. One of them was Beyond Good & Evil. They said due to poor sales (not necessarily because of used sales, but it's possible), they decided not to release the next two games in the planned BG&E trilogy. So, I know it's not the whole company that went under, but it sure affected it somehow. I would go quote EGM but I would have to find the issue again.
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And BG&E was supposed to be really good too.
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No kidding.
But there's no proof that used game sales caused that. I'll bet (and this is just my theory) that people saw it and went, "Oh, it's some lame adventure game, I'll never buy this." I mean, unless you play it, it does look like a generic PS2 action/adventure game.
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Technically, the supposed reason of its failure was a bad release time. It was released in the middle of a few big hitters (I don't remember what they were). I didn't say that it was solely due to used game sales, and I wasn't even trying to prove anything about used games in that specific example. What I was pointing out was this: The game failed because of a lack of sales. Used games cause a lack of sales. The transitive property would suggest that used games cause failures of game sequels and, potentially, entire publishing companies. Sorry for double post down there
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That's related...how?
But, as you said before that, yes, BG&E did fail because of lack of sales, but used game sales do not cause some huge butterfly effect that will ruin a publisher. I mean, let's look at it this way: So far, Nintendo has made a kafillion gajillion dollars off all their IPs combined. Therefore, used game sales would not make the slightest dent in their profits. For smaller companies, this would be a problem, but that brings me back to my original point: used games have not yet caused a noticeable drop in anything.
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Of course it makes a dent in their profits. If everyone bought Nintendo's games new, they would make more money.
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Yes, but people with games they didn't want anymore would simply throw them out.
I don't sell games I bought though. I've done it before and man do I wish I hadn't. Now games I got for some Christmas when I was little and stuff... I don't miss The Jungle Book for the SNES at all.
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Normally I only sell back games I bought when a) they were a gift and really really suck (Nintendogs), or b) it was used and I didn't like it, and less than a week has passed since I bought it (Tony Hawk's American Wasteland), or it's broken (Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga). Gamestop gives you all your money back!
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a) was a gift and really really sucked (Ping Pals) I wish I had just thrown that abomination away. The thing virtually wasn't worth squat.
b) I didn't like it, and about a week has passed since I bought it (Resident Evil 4)
or it's a broken, used copy (Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask) Software Etc. swapped copies for me free of charge, if I remember correctly; probably because I had just bought that used copy there the day before, and we had the receipt with us.
That's my case scenario.
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You didn't like RE4? For shame.
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It was great, but it just wasn't my kind of game.
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I'll drink to that. Just as soon as I'm thirsty.
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I find used games mostly awful, because of the condition. If you buy one from a rental store, you never get the proper manual and if it's a cartridge, it'll have vivid marking and void stickers on it. If it's a disc, it might have scratches (if you are lucky, a disc guard is stuck on). The case won't be the proper one, but if it is, it might be altered...
Preowned Games from EB and other stores like The Gamesman and Central Park are likely to have scratches or missing manuals, making them useless.
I bought two GCN games on a national auction website and my the system at a rental store for $100NZ, with the Cube, the leads, two memory cards, three controllers, but no games (I bought them after a while; I recently got Metroid Prime 2: Echoes).
So basically, I buy good condition stuff, but only go online if there is a game in perfect condition.
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You know, not all used games are in the condition you describe. The other day I bought used copies of Burnout 3 and Star Wars Battlefront at GameStop, and the discs were in pristine condition, with no scratches or smudges at all, and the case and manuals were perfect, too. Obviously, though, the previous owner either didn't handle them much or was just a neat freak; some used games are even worse than the way you described. I saw a copy of XIII for PS2 at EB Games before, and not only was the disc scratched and smudged, but the manual was missing pages and was actually crusty (apparently, the pages had stuck together and dried after having coffee spilled on it). The case was also a green Xbox case, and the cover was one of the generic "PRE-OWNED GAME" fill-in-the-blanks papers, with the back ripped out and replaced with a black-and-white photocopy of the game's back cover. Obviously, I didn't buy it. But most of the games I buy used are in excellent condition.
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When I got my GameCube from VideoEzy, it had "void" stickers all over it as well as the memory cards and the controllers.
This was really annoying, seeing it is hard getting off the silver sticky stuff they leave behind when you rip them off. They also engrave into the plastics, also annoying.
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Well, then don't buy from rental stores; their stuff is crap. It's been used by tons of people, and the fact vthat they're owning for only a few days means they don't care about the condition. The VOID stickers and plastic engravings are there to discourage people from pawning the system they just rented.
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I got Tetris Attack from Blockbuster despite the partially missing label, which I removed years later having discovered The Mr. Clean Magic Eraser. "Tetris Attack" written where the label was in Sharpie. More ghetto? Yes. Uglier than the nasty label? No. No regrets, the SNES was nearly killed by the N64 by that time anyway.
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I honestly don't care about the physical condition of carts. As long as the contacts aren't corroded, it could be covered in obscene graffiti and I wouldn't care.
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My copy of Link's Awakening DX has the previous owner's initials marked on the back of the cartridge, but it works fine. If I'm buying a used handheld (GB/GBC) game, I test it first.
I saw a copy of Pikmin 2 at a grocery store that used to rent out games. Things seemed okay, but I think the disc was scoffed or scratched a little. I don't remember whether or not the manual was still there. Needless to say, I didn't buy it.
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I got Prime 2 off Trade Me and the only thing wrong with it was the front cover, which had a scratch-like dent in it.
What I find really poor was the bag the GCN Bundle came with. It was pretty breaky, but did a good job carrying my Wii (the bag was an offical Nintendo one, which has a big GameCube thing on the top) though.
I now use this nifty Wii bag from PowerWave.