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Video Games => Mario Chat => Topic started by: NintendoExpert89 on December 27, 2003, 07:09:06 PM

Title: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: NintendoExpert89 on December 27, 2003, 07:09:06 PM
Why does Nintendo put Cheating AI into the Mario Kart series? Is it because the CPU players are sore losers? Mario Kart: Double Dash!! has serious Cheating AI problems. For example, all of you who have played this game know that if the Red Shell misses the player it's going for, it keeps going and crashes into a wall or something, BUT when I was playing the "All Cup Tour" and in the "Bowser's Castle" course, the CPU player behind me shot a Red Shell and missed me as I was jumping over the ramp before the Finish line. THEN it landed on the track in front of me, it moved in the opposite direction all of the sudden and started circling so it would try to hit me anyway! But it missed me; HA HA HA! YOUR LITTLE PLAN WAS THWARTED! And Green Shells just appear out of nowhere in from of me as I near the Finish Line.

Mmmmm, good white, hearty, white bread for white, white people!

Edited by - nintendoexpert89 on 12/27/2003 5:10:14 PM
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: WanWan on December 27, 2003, 07:27:30 PM
What's up with your signature, dude?

I noticed that too about MKDD.  I mean I wasn't very good at it anyway (heh) but I would always get screwed over just as I was about to win, in some weird way that a human opponent wouldn't have been able to pull off.  The AI karts also recover from setbacks a lot faster than they should--like if I fall into a hole at some point near the end, I'm probably not going to end up in any place higher than third or so, but an opponent kart will be right back in first about 30 seconds later.  It kills me.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Markio on December 27, 2003, 07:29:14 PM
Well, I actually like how they're more challenging.  Somewhere they said, "The racers are a lot more competitive, but they don't magically become faster when you pass them!"

No plate like chrome for the hollindaise.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: TJOghost8 on December 27, 2003, 07:36:21 PM
One thing I have noticed is that sometimes, the AI players just suddenly appear to in 1st, conviently without you seeing them pass you.

Know why the elderly contribute so much to the church? To buy their way into Heaven from a lifetime of sin.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Insane Steve on December 27, 2003, 07:46:00 PM
Ah yes, the good old "Quick Recovery AI" that is a staple of the Mario Kart games. It happened in Mario Kart for SNES (Seriously, I had a trick which caused the AI to fall a half lap behind; they'd be back with me within 2 laps), It happened in MK64, and it appears that it is happening in DD, also. Interesting. At least this time Nintendo is trying to justify their AI system... (At least, if what I read on this thread is true.)

Mario Party is another series infamous for rigging the random number generators to favor the AIs -- the original Mario Party, although it had the best mini-games, was plagued with the cheapest AI units. All me and none of my friends used to do is complain about how bad the computer-controlled characters cheated. *sigh*

Stupid Quotes: (10th Edition)
"Super Mario Sunshine is an overhyped, boring kids` game with a fruity name that got higher ratings than it deserved."
"Aaron S." - with a dishonorable mention to Electronic Gaming Monthly magazine (Issue #165, pg. 24) for printing the opinions of people who don`t deserve to have opinions.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: NintendoExpert89 on December 27, 2003, 07:49:07 PM
Has anyone ever noticed that in the original Mario Kart for the SNES that if be play as a certain character, another certain CPU is ALWAYS programmed to be in 2nd place whilst you're in first? For example, if you hit that CPU player with a shell and he goes about 5 ranks back, his cart suddenly speeds up and gets back into his original position. I have made a chart here showing whoever you play as, that CPU player will have the Cheating AI:

Human/CPU:
Mario/DK JR.
Luigi/Yoshi
Princess/Bowser
Yoshi/Koopa Troopa
Toad/Princess
DK JR./Toad
Koopa Troopa/Luigi
Bowser/Mario

Edit: Oh, Insane Steve already brought Super Mario Kart up 3 minutes eariler. And he's RIGHT about the Mario Party series as well.

Mmmmm, good white, hearty, white bread for white, white people!

Edited by - nintendoexpert89 on 12/27/2003 5:54:16 PM
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Fifth on December 27, 2003, 08:03:52 PM
Oh, the computer cheating is mild in double dash (I haven't really noticed anything, other than heavy characters doing very well) compared to Mario Kart 64.

Here are some things I've proven...
-Computer players will "chase", exceeding any logical speeds to catch up.
-Computers will recover from a fall as soon as their kart passes over the edge line of the track
-Copmuters will not suffer any course obsticales (train, cars, etc.) unless you are watching them
-Computers don't actually get items (running over the item boxes is just a ceremonial issue) and can summon anything at any time (though it's mostly random)
-Computers would never use any sort of shell or mushroom
-Ghosts would give you a random item - that is, not a random player's item - when playing with any number of computers

...and that's all I can think of right now.

And you'll have to be a little lenient about the Mario party games.  Think about it:  for every new game that comes out, almost every single minigame requires a different means of playing, and so a new AI code for the computers.  They have to make accomodations from time to time, one way or another.  (Though I was still annoyed that time a 'puter got a star on his FIRST TURN in Mario Party 1.)

Go Moon!
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: NintendoExpert89 on December 27, 2003, 08:08:15 PM
THAT'S RIGHT!! They don't suffer any obstacles! I shot a CPU player with a Red Shell while far away (nearly off-screen), and the player didn't fly up into the air! That sickens me.

Mmmmm, good white, hearty, white bread for white, white people!
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Markio on December 27, 2003, 08:40:56 PM
Of course, that's MK64.

No plate like chrome for the hollindaise.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Lizard Dude on December 27, 2003, 09:16:45 PM
They cheat horribly in Mario Kart.
They cheat horribly in Mario Kart 64.
They cheat horribly in Mario Kart: Super Circuit.
They cheat not so much in Mario Kart: Double Dash!!

One of the first things I noticed about DD!! is that the comps didn't cheat nearly as bad. I could easily nearly lap them on the easier cups and they would never magically boost up to me. The AI does seem to be better on the harder cups, but cheating does still happen regularly.

Come on Mario Kart series, look how well Rare did it in Diddy Kong Racing. The computer never cheated, raced with skill, actually picked up items like the player did (incredible!) and made for a much better time.

my pathetic attempts at humor are fleeting
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Forest Guy on December 27, 2003, 09:19:15 PM
Yes. I hate AI advantages. However, it is fun to use their AI against them too. In some games such as Super Smash Bros. Melee, you can use it to your advantage. Some instances include, standing still near a certain place on a stage while a computer character walks towards you walks off the cliff, jumps back, and jumps forward again, resulting in their demise. Amnother would be to have them at nan edge, stand far away and have someone like Mewtwo start charging up the Shdadow Ball but cannot jump while doing this, they try to charge up but end up falling to their deaths. Computer AI is a double-edged sword. Unfortunately, most games have such clever AI that you cannot trick them like in Melee.

I despise ignorant people.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Fifth on December 27, 2003, 09:20:31 PM
Yeah, Diddy Kong Racing had the "Diddy effect", under which any computer player in front of Diddy would suffer a terrible "accident" to ensure that Diddy would get 1st.

Okay, so that's not quite as well-grounded as the Mario Kart things...

Go Moon!
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Markio on December 27, 2003, 10:10:44 PM
Who cares if they cheat as long as you win?

I''m the "trick" in "eccentric".
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Insane Steve on December 27, 2003, 10:28:38 PM
DKR is about the only racing game I STILL can't beat. I'm stuck on that last race where you have to race Wizpig (I think that was his name -- if not, meh) on the rocket. I'm terrible with the plane.

And DKR is the model racing game in my mind AI wise, especially because of the rule where the racers that are way behind STAY behind. I can lap everyone in the hovercraft races (I am amazing at the hovercraft) and the game won't send the 2nd place person up like in the MK series.

Actually, there's a semi-obscure racing game for the N64 entitled "Snowboard Kids" that had the single worst AI ever. Far worse than MK, to be sure. Essentially, the game sends a CPU-controlled character to wherever you are on the track, no matter how far ahead or behind you are. If you gain a half "lap" advantage, it'll be gone in about 5 seconds. If you fall behind by a half lap, the CPU-controlled character ahead of you will have about 10 accidents in a row so you can catch up. Essentially, it is a coin toss as to who wins.

Stupid Quotes: (10th Edition)
"Super Mario Sunshine is an overhyped, boring kids` game with a fruity name that got higher ratings than it deserved."
"Aaron S." - with a dishonorable mention to Electronic Gaming Monthly magazine (Issue #165, pg. 24) for printing the opinions of people who don`t deserve to have opinions.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: TJOghost8 on December 27, 2003, 10:45:30 PM
I sometimes don't mind if a player catches up to me, but if it's the same person I killed over and over that's when I become nasty.

Know why the elderly contribute so much to the church? To buy their way into Heaven from a lifetime of sin.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Popple on December 27, 2003, 11:37:12 PM
Your all just lazy bums who can't take a challenge. If everyone played fair it would be almost impossible to loose. Is that what you want!?! To hold A and move a litle stick around for three minuits, dodging weak simple fair items that you have to get too. Do you want that!!! DO YOU! HUH? HUH?

I do.

Or is it... *shifts eyes suspiciously*
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: WanWan on December 27, 2003, 11:42:14 PM
Aww, I loved Snowboard Kids!  The AI was pretty bad though.  The sequel was much less annoying AI-wise although the final race against--er, who was it against?  Damien in a giant robot?--that race was **** near impossible.  You had to make every move perfectly to win.  It got to the point where within the first ten seconds of the race I could tell whether or not I would ever catch up to him, and would continue or restart accordingly.

Actually the 150cc races in DD are like that   for me, too.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Chupperson Weird on December 27, 2003, 11:45:46 PM
I didn't think the AI in MKSC was so cheaty.
I have yet to play MKDD.

I like the AI in Extreme-G 3. It seems pretty fair all around... to me at least. It's hard to get ahead, but once you're in front for a while, the other bikes stay behind.

I wish I were sun at dusk. ... ... ... ... ......ha ha kidding.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: WanWan on December 27, 2003, 11:49:16 PM
Oops, asterices, I got carried away.  *blue lines*  Thought I was on LiveJournal for a sec . . .
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: nintendofreak on December 27, 2003, 11:52:36 PM
I broke a plexiglass sheet with my controller because of the cheating 150cc AIs in MKDD. Also, in every course that you race in Grand Prix, whenever someone takes 1st place away from you, it's the exact same person who finished as 1st or close to 1st in the courses before.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Popple on December 27, 2003, 11:58:56 PM
Thats because if different people get first or near it the points would all be low and easy to beat.

Or is it... *shifts eyes suspiciously*
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Trainman on December 28, 2003, 12:48:14 AM
MegaByte says that the computer would not be able to handle falling that many places behind because of a shell hitting them, etc., hence they speed up like that... or, he says, because of lazy prgrammers.

Well, that is the basic *summary* of what MegaByte said, not his exact words.

"Eat, eat, and eat! I do one sit-up a day. I get up in the morning; that''s half. I lay down at night; that''s the other half. I figured out a long time ago that my body was just for carrying my head from place to place." ~Mark Lowry
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: TJOghost8 on December 28, 2003, 10:13:33 AM
A small correction in Fifth's post of all MK64 cheats: The computers actually DO use the mushroom. I see the "flames" emit from their engine as they speed up. And here's something else: Computers don't actually use the Lightning Bolt, the software summons it at random and randomly picks any of the AIs in the back ranks.

Know why the elderly contribute so much to the church? To buy their way into Heaven from a lifetime of sin.

Edited by - TJOghost8 on 12/28/2003 8:17:36 AM
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: NintendoExpert89 on December 28, 2003, 06:56:04 PM
Here's something else I have uncovered: In MK:DD, the CPU karts in 150cc that have the lowest acceleration are able to rocket start or recover WITHOUT the rocket start.

Mmmmm, good white, hearty, white bread for white, white people!
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Forest Guy on December 28, 2003, 11:05:14 PM
I think the AI in Kirby Air Ride is excellent. They can be smart, but they don't cheat. A challenge, but not ridiculous. Kirby Air Ride is a great game, and if you think it's bad without even playing it, I pity you, you foolish fool.

I despise ignorant people.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Jman on December 29, 2003, 02:06:05 PM
Yeah, I didn't have a problem when I first played Double Dash.

But they cheat like little dogs that clamp onto your foot and don't let go.



And now you know, the rest of the story.

Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Jman on December 29, 2003, 02:06:48 PM
Yeah, I didn't have a problem when I first played Double Dash.

But they cheat like little dogs that clamp onto your foot and don't let go.
(In SNES Mario Kart.)



And now you know, the rest of the story.

Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Jman on December 29, 2003, 02:25:00 PM
I really hate the cheating in the Mario Party games.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Forest Guy on December 31, 2003, 02:51:14 AM
The cheating AI in Double Dash is ridiculous. My sister and I playing Co-Op mode sustained so much anger due to it. THe computer would be right in front of us, and we'd send out a Red Turtle Shell that would follow them for a bit then just give up and crash. Another instance was how I was clearly in 2nd  PLace in the middle of a race, slightly close to the 1st PLace people. A Spiny Blue Shell came after them, then all of a sudden turned around and hit us. Also, their recovery time is MUCH MUCH shorter than any human's. I saw characters fall off of Rainbow Road and them they come back in a matter of seconds. I have lots of other tales but thinking of 'em will just make me dislike the game now that we've finally beaten it completely.

I despise ignorant people.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Popple on December 31, 2003, 03:04:50 PM
Technically it is not cheating if the game AI makes them do it, its not like they have a choice. Blame the game programmers.

Or is it... *shifts eyes suspiciously*
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: nintendofreak on December 31, 2003, 05:53:36 PM
Also, in MK:DD, if an AI is in 1st place in 100cc or 150cc, it seems to magically speed up as if it was getting infinite Triple Mushrooms.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: frostbite on December 31, 2003, 07:23:52 PM
"Technically it is not cheating if the game AI makes them do it, its not like they have a choice. Blame the game programmers."

I don't know if you were being serious or not, Birdo, but I couldn't help but laugh at that.

-------
Irregularly Updated Frostbite Quote #3

"This is quite possibly the greatest cookie I`ve ever tasted."
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Markio on December 31, 2003, 08:00:29 PM
<sarcasm>Seriously, I hate the game.  What idiot thought of making video games challenging?</sarcasm>

Seriously though, the computer players aren't exactly cheating.  They're programmed to have  the advantage so you have to beat them with the odds against you.  Most people complain about games being too easy.  Think about it.  Games aren't like oxygen percentage in the air.  If there was a slightly smaller percentage, we can't breathe.  If there is a little more, we'll become too flammable and burn up.  If they "cheat", we should be glad it's challenging.  If it's easy, we should be glad we beat it.  Besides, what are we supposed to do, write a letter to Nintendo saying that we want them to alter the game so it's easier?  Then again, we could go back in time and stop them from making it so hard... hmm...*runs to secret laboratory*

Actually, I find the CPs fine.  So what if they have the advantage?  Just makes it so much more satisfying when you beat them and leave them crying in the dirt!  BWAHAHAHAHAA!  Ahem. Sorry! XD

I''m the "trick" in "eccentric".
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Chupperson Weird on January 03, 2004, 08:56:15 PM
I have something interesting to add to all this:

In MK64, if you finish the race at the same time as a CP, the same hundredth of a second, the CP wins. I found this out against Yoshi in Wario Stadium. I wonder what the odds of ending at exactly the same hundredth of a second are.

I wish I were sun at dusk. ... ... ... ... ......ha ha kidding.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: jon on January 03, 2004, 10:21:32 PM
The AI is fone for me. MK64 was where I had a problem.

And Meowrik, Kirby Air Ride, I suppose, for the Gamecube has a fair AI, they don't cheat or anything like that. Great game.

-----------------------------
Mario likes to dance in his backwards pants! Yay!
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Peach and Daisy on March 07, 2004, 07:50:59 PM
I have something to add to the Cheating AI in MK:DD!!. To make sure that the karts in the back ranks stay behind the entire race, whenever the back person of a kart gets a mushroom, the game makes them switch so he can't use it immediately.

Also, did anyone notice that win a kart wins a race, the game keeps the kart in their order (i.e. First being followed by Second, Second being followed by Third). So, if you got the Leader Shell hit you as soon as you cross the finish line, it is usual that the other karts go past. But those karts suddenly slow down and yours speeds up ahead of them to make sure that the order isn't disturbed.

Another thing I'd like to add- the two karts that are usually set to second and third place whilst you're in first, are programmed so the order stays the same. Say you got knocked back to 6th place somehow. Look at the map- those two that are now in First and Second seem to overlap each other- it makes sure that the person in second cannot beat the person in first, but still tries to be "competitive."

In conclusion, the order of the CPU karts is predetermined. The order never changes unless there is the human kart.

I'll give you a peach if you give me a daisy.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Red Paratroopa on March 07, 2004, 08:11:11 PM
I personally haven't experienced Cheating AI in MKDD. At least, I didn't notice it if I did.

"I hate that freakin'' marshmallow."- Homestar Runner, on Marshie
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Hirocon on March 07, 2004, 08:43:21 PM
Cheating AI makes me furious.  It is probably my single biggest pet peeve about video games.  My second biggest pet peeve is when games are too easy.  It may sound like I'm contradicting myself here, but I don't think that challenging AI has to mean cheating AI.





From a programming perspective, in a well developed AI system, the AI algorythms will be completely independent from the actual player control.  A player control model will recieve input from somewhere, but will not know if it is recieving input from an actual, human-operated controller, or an AI algorythm.  That way, the computer controlled opponent can do everything that a human controlled opponent can do, but nothing more.





If such a system were well designed, the AI could still be ridiculously challenging, but it wouldn't be have to be cheap and frustrating.  There would have to be different AI levels, so that only one opponent would have the most tallented AI model.  This would make it more likely (but would not ensure) that that opponent would always come in first or second, making the point distribution uneven and making the game more challenging.





Unfortunately, very few videogames actually incorporate the separation of AI and player control as described above, and this aggrivates me to no end.  For example, in the GBA games Advance Wars and Advance Wars 2: Black Hole Rising, the AI can cheat.  These are not real-time games, they are turned-based games resembling board games, but the AI still cheats!!!  Specifically, the AI is able to ignore fog of war.  For those of you who have played the games and know what I'm talking about, the AI is able to move a unit next to one of your concealed units in a forest, and attack that unit, in the same move.  This is impossible for a human character to do.  When a human moves next to a forest, the contents of the forest are not revealed until after the player has selected "wait," making the unit that he moved unable to attack any concealed units in the forest.  The human player may still be able to bring in another unit to attack the enemy's unit in the forest, but the AI doesn't need to do this.  The AI can reveal and attack your concealed unit in the same move.  [wtd] Nintendo!!?? Fog of War is such a kick-@$$ idea but it is completely meaningless if it doesn't affect the AI!! I'm mad! MAD!!! AAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!





This is not a signature.

Edited by - Hirocon on 3/7/2004 6:45:48 PM

Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Hirocon on March 07, 2004, 08:52:15 PM
And in Time Splitters 2, the AI doesn't even pretend to be realistic!!! Computer controlled bots can perform dives, rolls, and slides when entering rooms, for which there is simply no huamn-controlled equivalent!!!  And even if you know that the computer is going to roll out of the way, and aim accordingly, the bullets just bounce harmlessly off until the computer controlled opponent is back on its feet and firing at you!! And in free-for-all elimination mode, the computer always always always always ALWAYS attacks the human controlled players first!  That's not a free-for-all, Free Radical!  It's an all-against me!  AAARGH! HURAAGAH! BLAARAGARAHA!!!!!





This is not a signature.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Fifth on March 07, 2004, 09:59:53 PM
Every time I see this topic, I see a lower case L after the A, instead of a capitol I.
And I wonder, "Who's this 'Al' person, and why's everybody so mad at him?"

Go Moon!
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Chupperson Weird on March 08, 2004, 09:17:51 PM
XD
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: bobbysq1337 on July 08, 2012, 05:48:30 PM
Time for another round of "Bobbysq brings dead topics back to life!"

I think the AI cheating has gotten better. I haven't noticed it in MKW, although it may happen a bit on MPDS.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Weegee on July 08, 2012, 06:14:00 PM
In MKDS and MKW, I hate how opponents time their use of red/blue shells perfectly so they'll hit you just as you pass through an item box.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: jdaster64 on July 09, 2012, 09:55:10 AM
Maybe it's because I drove the already slow Toad Kart in MKDD, but I never noticed the rubber-banding as much in that game.  Although you had to really try to not keep up with 4th-8th.   MKDS CPU's are almost as bad as 64's, though; I wonder why they felt the need to bring it back.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: Trainman on July 09, 2012, 12:01:23 PM
While not as bad as SMK or MK64, every Mario Kart produced from then on suffers from some pretty bad rubberbanding still.

The two things that stand out as silly is, first, why they still have preset racing grids. Like if you hit a character who is the predetermined "leader" and they drop to fourth, for example, they'll be back in their original spot within 10 seconds. Same for essentially any other CPU player.

Also, starting with Mario Kart 64, when you win a race, that's just it. Whatever place the computers are in when you cross the finish line is what their place is, and the game allows them no time to finish and let it pan out. While I know it's intended to speed up the game, it can be irritating when the results for each CPU are the exact same unless you hit a player with an item just feet before the finish line. There ends up being no tension because you already know that the player destined to be second place will always be second, etc. It can also screw up Grand Prix victories, say, if you're falling behind by just a few points, it's the final race, and you know that if you can get the preset leader character to get a bad place you can end up taking the lead. Well, unless you manage to do that, like I said, within the last leg of the race, it won't happen.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: jdaster64 on July 09, 2012, 01:22:15 PM
I've been playing Mario Kart 64 with my brother recently, actually, and it's amazing how vastly the placements vary when playing with 2 players.  Like you said, it does come out pretty preset if you're in the lead and no one else is playing, though.  Then again, there's always the odd flukes where some character in the back of the pack suddenly accelerates to 20% higher than the max speed and finishes a lap ahead for no apparent reason.

On that note, it's funny how the end-of-race placement varies by installment; in MKDD, the computers will adjust their speed however necessary to keep the racers in the order they finished in, but in MK64, if the top few CPU's were gaining on you at the end, they'll pass you up by half a lap in no time flat.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: bobbysq1337 on August 03, 2012, 03:42:32 PM
I think the AI cheats in the shops in MPDS, especially in story mode.
Title: Re: Cheating AI makes me angry.
Post by: The Chef on August 03, 2012, 05:30:31 PM
Lizard Dude's post in here about Diddy Kong Racing brings up one of the reasons I love it so much compared to Mario Kart.