Poll

What are your views on abortion?

Pro-life
Pro-choice
Undecided
Print

Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 66956 times)

ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2008, 05:42:28 PM »
Pro-choice. I think it was either my mom or dad who said that (I can't remember if this something they heard elsewhere or thought up) if men had babies, abortion would be totally legal.
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2008, 05:53:54 PM »
One thing I don't understand is why the sides of this argument are named as such. I mean, the term "Pro-Life" seems to invoke that one is for living in general, and "Pro-Choice" sounds like someone who wants to choose in general. Shouldn't they be called something more like "Pro-Abortion" and "Anti-Abortion"? I mean, that is all this debate is covering, right?

Glorb

  • Banned
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2008, 05:56:16 PM »
Because "Abortion" is bad for PR.
every

goodie

  • Nike and Reebok
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2008, 06:06:04 PM »
Pro-life. No matter what the reason is, abortion is still murder.
576f726c6420392069732061207365637265742e

Koopaslaya

  • Kansas
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2008, 06:37:04 PM »
My objection to some of the points raised by the pro-choice posters:

DISCLAIMER:
I take nothing here personally. I do not hate you, I am not mad at you, but I simply disagree with your view.


1) Rape: After having been raped, the victim has already been subject to enough trauma, so she should not be forced to bear a child which will always remind her of the heinous crime committed against her.
~Objections: The child is not responsible for how he or she was created. Having not been the baby's fault that it was the result of a violent crime by a sick, perverted man, it has the right to be born. If the woman does not wish to keep the child, she certainly may give it up for adoption. Of course, as the apt pro-choicer would point out, the woman would have to go through labor and the gestation period, perhaps to the chagrin of her friends and family. This, however, is a yolk that the woman has a responsibility to fulfill. What regard to human life do we have if we cannot allow a child to live because he or she was the result of a horrid crime? If we simply end the crime with more violence, it shows that we, as a society, cannot overcome violence. Violence should lead to peace, not to more violence and hate.

2)"Special" Births: Because a child will be born with a mental illness or a physical deformity, it is in some way charitable to kill it so that it will not have to suffer.
~Objections: Again, this undermines the absolute dignity of each human person by virtue of his or her humanity. If we allow parents to kill their unborn babies so that they "will not suffer," should we not also be able to kill the mentally or physically handicapped so as to rescue them as well from their skum-sucking, bottom-feeding position in society? By killing those who may be at risk of a mental or physical disability before birth, we are becoming Hitler; we are trying to make a master race. Eugenics, anyone?
     ~Furthermore, it cannot be morally acceptable to kill the handicapped before birth because we assume that their lives will be bad simply because they will be different, a word we don't like to use much in our society. We'd rather have everyone be the same. Of all the mentally or physically disabled people I have ever met, I have never met a single one who was unhappy or ungrateful for what he or she has. They do not focus on the negative, but rather on the positive. They, being human, can live a life filled with joy, peace, and love.
     ~Last time I checked, the mortality rate for human beings was 100%. If people will die, why should be torture them and let them live in this wicked, war-torn world? Wouldn't it just be easier and more loving if we killed them and saves them from the pain and toil that they will surely face at some point in their lives?

3)
Pro-choice. I think it was either my mom or dad who said that (I can't remember if this something they heard elsewhere or thought up) if men had babies, abortion would be totally legal.
~Objection: I'm not quite sure what this means, because abortion is already totally legal.

4)Men: I'm a man, so I can't have an opinion.
Objection: I'm white, so I can't have an opinion on minority rights. I'm a natural citizen of the USA, so I can't have an opinion on immigration. Human solidarity is key in solving this issue. Simply because I am not able to do something is not reason enough for me not to make my opinion matter. Men are just as responsible as women for creating babies, so they should have just as much say in deciding whether or not a child should live. It is absurd to take a "bye" on this issue, which affects men and women, both as parents and as children.

5)Dangerous Pregnancy: If a woman is in danger of death while in the gestation period, the fetus should be aborted.
Objection: We should, of course, do our best to save both lives. This is the only circumstance in which abortion may be a viable option, however, the situation must mandate that the woman will die if she does not abort the fetus.

6)
I think that if people are educated to better plan their sexual relationship(s) abortion wouldn't be such a big issue.  It amazes me at how little most teenagers know about sex, STDs, pregnancy, abortion, etc.  I believe that this education should start at home, but many parents are not equipped to have such discussions with their children or are apathetic because they thing the X will never happen to their child so X shouldn't be taught to them.  I therefor believe that sex education in public schools is very important. 
Common Ground: Yes, you are correct, Luigison. The home has the primary responsibility when educating children about sexuality. I also agree that sex-ed in schools is of paramount importance. This is not a cure-all, however. Teenagers will often rebel against what they hear in school, or disregard it altogether and make errors in judgment while they are filled with hormones. In a back-seat situation, the first thing on a teenage guy's mind is not Mr. Thomas's Sex-Ed class.

EDIT 1: Fixed some code errors (italics and bolds).
« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 06:39:03 PM by Koopaslaya »
Εὐθύνατε τὴν ὁδὸν Κυρίου

MaxVance

  • Vance Vance Revolution
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2008, 06:44:12 PM »
When it comes to moral issues like this, I ask myself: "How does it affect me?" Abortion doesn't, so I don't care what women do. As for the issue in America, however...

Quote from: Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
See that "to the people" bit right there? Yep.
Remember that your first Goomba boldly you walk? When Mario touched that mushroom being brought up more largely remember that you are surprised? Miscalculate your jump that pit remember that it falls?

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2008, 07:44:09 PM »
I completely support abortion at any time for any reason, IF what is inside the womb is not a person. However, science and philosophy clearly indicate that it is. It's alive; otherwise you couldn't talk about killing it, and it's genetically a human; what other species could it be? There are only five differences between an unborn human and me, and none of them make it more right to kill them.

- Size: The baby is obviously a lot smaller than me, but murderers don't get reduced sentences for killing shorter people.
- Level of Development: The baby is less developed than me, physically and mentally, but no sane person thinks it's more right to kill a 2-year-old than a 40-year-old. (Most people would actually think it's worse)
- Environment: I'm in a house, the fetus is in a person. But we've pretty much established by now that whether or not you're a person doesn't have anything to do with where you live.
- Dependency: The baby relies completely on its mother while in the womb. But it's not like it stops being dependent once it's born. It still needs food, clothes, and shelter. In fact, it doesn't really stop being dependent until it's old enough to get a job of its own. Besides, we don't kill people who are dependent on dialysis machines (yet).
- Consciousness: Before a certain point, the fetus is (probably) not conscious. This isn't a good justification, any more than it would be right for you to kill me in my sleep. Besides, we can't tell 100% whether they're conscious or not, and it would be wise to err to caution.

If the fetus is as much a person as I am, then abortion is the same as murder, and all pro-choice arguments -- including appeals to emotion and ad hominem arguments (i.e., "You're a man, so you can't say anything") -- fall completely apart. If, on the other hand, the fetus is sufficiently less of a person than I am to justify killing it, that opens the door to killing any other living humans that are seen as useless.

Also,

When it comes to moral issues like this, I ask myself: "How does it affect me?" Abortion doesn't, so I don't care what women do.

Quote from: Martin Niemöller
When the Nazis came for the communists, I remained silent; I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats, I remained silent; I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists, I did not speak out; I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews, I remained silent; I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.

If unborn humans are people, their rights must be defended.

In case anyone thinks the quote means I'm comparing pro-choicers to Nazis... At the risk of being completely misinterpreted, I think we demonize Hitler too much. Not in that we should be nicer to him; he is pretty much the pinnacle of human evil so far; but I think we just treat him like Satan incarnate and forget that he started from the same place as us. You and I are every bit as capable of that kind of evil, and far worse, if left to our own devices, and we need to be more aware of that.

And yeah, I know, Godwin's Law.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 08:08:23 PM by CrossEyed7 »
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2008, 08:01:30 PM »
One thing I don't understand is why the sides of this argument are named as such. I mean, the term "Pro-Life" seems to invoke that one is for living in general, and "Pro-Choice" sounds like someone who wants to choose in general. Shouldn't they be called something more like "Pro-Abortion" and "Anti-Abortion"? I mean, that is all this debate is covering, right?
I'm pretty sure the anti-abortionists made up that name for themselves to make the pro-choice people look bad.

I'm not quite sure what this means, because abortion is already totally legal.
Well, I guess what I mean is that it wouldn't be anywhere near as controversial.
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2008, 08:44:41 PM »
"Anti-abortion" fits the "pro-life" bill perfectly, but "pro-abortion" is not exactly right for the pro-choice side. No one's actively going about encouraging people, "Abort your babies! Abort 'em while they still fit in a shoebox!" At least, not yet. Perhaps it'll be a different story when overpopulation is starving everyone, when it's pro-abortion vs. pro-eat... oh my.

Koopaslaya provides some good points. Points I cannot argue.
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2008, 08:58:59 PM »
I am 100% anti-abortion and I agree with everything Koopaslaya said. Same with Crosseyed7
Gently push a piece of the tube containing the intersection along the fourth dimension, out of the original three dimensional space.
- WIkipedia page on the Klein bottle

« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2008, 09:10:05 PM »
Before now, I had no real standing of opinion in the topic of abortion. Now I feel that I'm pro-life.

I agree whole-heartedly with both Koopaslaya and CrossEyed7 on their points. Unless the fetus is in a condition that is a sure threat to its or its mother's life, abortion is not necessary. There are organizations, like religious groups, who are willing to aid the mother during her pregnancy and assist in the child's adoption. There are plenty of couples (or single people) out there who want to have a child to raise when they themselves are unable to have ones of their own.

Pregnancy and childbirth are part of life, the most natural. Sure it's long and has its hardships, but that's the way it's been going on since the dawn of man. To abort the child spits upon one of our very purposes in life: to be fruitful and reproduce. Even if the child was what one would label a "surprise" or a "mistake," that's not much of a reason to destroy it like a pencil mark with an eraser. Quote Eric Cartman, "abortion is...cheating life itself." You're directly preventing a person who has come into existence from continuing onward because you cannot deal with the consequences of your or another's actions. The child is not responsible for its own existence. No one can suddenly "emerge" outside of procreation. The same could be said for the rest of us. For all of us who are living, we should be thankful. Our parents devoted their time to ensure that we stay alive and have a chance at life. To quote a parent I spoke with once: "A life without procreation is a very selfish life indeed." I myself would like to raise a kid one day. Even if he or she wasn't my own, it's best to give another a chance at life.

Ambulance Y

  • raewrednu
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2008, 09:32:07 PM »
What you feel is a purpose for life is not everyone's purpose for life.
Edward has always dreamed of becoming a female monkey.

« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2008, 09:40:51 PM »
Perhaps I worded it wrong: I'm not saying that everyone ought to reproduce for the heck of it. If you find out you're pregnant, just go with it: it's a part of being alive, let alone human.

Ambulance Y

  • raewrednu
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2008, 10:01:37 PM »
I'm all for meaningful and intelligent reproduction; I want fruit when my loins are ready. And I'm sure nobody wants abortion to happen, as BP illustrated before. But it needs to be legal so our women can have safe abortions rather than nasty self-induced abortions. Inconvenient pregnancies will occur regardless of the legality of abortion -- just look what prohibition did alcohol. Nothing, thanks to speak-easies. My point is, on a large scale human nature is hardly ever smothered by the law, and unfortunately human nature entails animal-like sexuality.   
Edward has always dreamed of becoming a female monkey.

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2008, 10:28:05 PM »
So why not legalize murder? People are going to do it anyway, and we could save a lot of time and effort if murders were all prearranged, using government-provided cyanide capsules, rather than painful back-alley murders. Of course, that analogy doesn't work completely, since most legal abortion methods seem like they'd be excruciatingly painful for the fetus, but you get the idea. If a fetus is a person, then we can't endorse killing them, even if it's going to happen anyway. If a fetus isn't a person, why should we have any qualms at all about killing them? If it's not a person, then abortion is no different than getting a mole removed.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 10:32:09 PM by CrossEyed7 »
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

Print