Fungi Forums
Video Games => Mario Chat => Topic started by: Fawful Fan on January 23, 2010, 05:27:48 PM
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Time after time creative minds at Nintendo have explained that Mario is a silent protagonist so as to allow the player to take up the role of the character and use his or her imagination to create the personality, thus immersing the player into the imaginative world. I've never quite agreed with this notion; wouldn't the existence of a main character destroy the immersion? Not everyone can relate to a short, fat, hairy man, so why not just play an adventure game as your Mii? I feel that two relatively recent Mario releases, Super Paper Mario and Bowser's Inside Story, have especially highlighted the hypocrisy of the silent protagonist.
In Super Paper Mario, you start off as Mario who mostly remains silent in the game as usual. So when you later unlock Peach and Bowser and play as them, the consistent thing to do to keep the player immersed within the game's universe would be to have them become silent protagonists as well. On the contrary, the game developers allow Peach and Bowser to maintain their voices. Does your immersion in the game honestly shatter when Peach or Bowser open their mouths and speak a few lines of dialogue? Same thing in Bowser's Inside Story. When you switch to Bowser, the Koopa king continues to boast, give threats, etc. You cannot convince me that the game's world would have been more immersive without that characterization!
Do you find that giving playable non-Mario characters a voice destroys immersion? If not, doesn't this throw a monkey wrench, or at least complicate, the philosophy behind the silent protagonist?
On a slightly related note, consider the Mii. The Mii, what is quite literally the empty vessel for the player, is given a voice in Mario Kart Wii. I hate my Mii's voice! When I play as my Mii, I cannot help but think, "Oh yeah, that's not really me playing. That's just my Mii." Doesn't this vocal hypocrisy just drive you mad?!
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Interesting topic, and yes, it does madden me.
I, for one, was a little miffed to learn that, despite featuring full voice-acting in Metroid Prime 3, they still didn't have Samus open her pretty little mouth other than to shriek or gasp in pain. Even though she had already been given a [slight, but still significant] speaking role in Fusion. Hopefully this will be fixed in Other M, the trailer for which already has more voice acting for Samus than the entirety of Prime 3.
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I agree that giving Mario (and Luigi in the M&L Series) would indeed give them much more character, but alas Nintendo has done this to almost every protagonist, it`s their style. Giving Mario a voice would be a leap for Nintendo, and they would probaby NEVER release a game with Mario talking, to them it wouldn`t seem like Mario. So it would seem that they`ll just stick to charades for now, which I have to admit does put a very comedic effect on Mario games, as well other Nintendo games with silent protagonists.
So what I`m saying is that I`m content with Mario being a silent protagonist, but I would also love it if Mario were to say more than "Oh yea!" in a game.
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I never bought the idea that a silent protagonist helps immerse you in the game. I always thought "I'm controlling this character. It's not me jumping over fireballs or dodging bullets, it's the character. It doesn't bother me if the character dies since he/she will come back." If I play as a particular character, then beyond any gameplay advantages that character has over others, I'm playing as them for their looks. If Yoshi flew off the edge of Rainbow Road, it's Yoshi who flew off the edge, not me. First-person view where you get no hint of the character existing helps a little, but I still know who I'm playing as.
I think the reason the characters are still silent is 1. it was that way in the previous games due to lack of technology, let's not change that, 2. we can make some silent jokes out of it or use it as an excuse to work on body gestures, and 3. because Zelda CD-I happens if we include voices.
I'm fine with silent protagonists because they find a way to make it work. Mario's fun to watch when he's going through motions at breakneck speed to explain something (besides, it'd be more universal and have more of an impact than reading a description of the same thing). I can't imagine Gordon Freeman spouting off Duke Nukem one-liners as he's dealing with aliens, but who knows, if I had played Duke Nukem I might also like the chatter. If you're going to include voices, please have a reason for it. While Deer Avenger 2 is a horrible game, the deer main character does shout out hints on what to do next and how to play better, so at the cost of breaking the fourth wall it's a clever way of HELPING the player. Don't include voices for the heck of it, or else you're better off having stayed silent in the first place.
So in other words, I'd like Mario to have a voice, but I don't want them to include a voice just because they can. If Mario has interesting stuff to say or he can contribute something useful in a cutscene (a GOOD cutscene, none of this Super Mario Sunshine airplane stuff), then go ahead. Just as long as the voice is tolerable, he's had an awfully strong accent with his one-liners.
Regardless, silent or not, does NOTHING to help or hinder immersion, because I'm never immersed in the first place. Any immersion I'd get is in watching the characters hopefully get safely through whatever level they're in.
Sidenote: In Final Fantasy X, there was an impromptu fight with a boss right when I didn't need it and which ended up being a lot more difficult than I anticipated. So I just barely make it through that, the boss flies up into the heavens, and Tidus yells "and STAY up there!". I could say I was immersed there because Tidus was yelling exactly what I was thinking. And you totally needed the voice for it to have the right effect. I get some immersion if the character thinks like I do, that's the only way I can relate. That's what I want to see more of.
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Maybe it's just because I grew up watching the Mario cartoons that I don't find a talking Mario such a strange concept. When I first played Super Mario RPG, I remember being confused as to why all the characters around Mario talked, but Mario himself never had a text bubble. Though the game is one of my favorites, if not my all time favorite, that initial confusion just took me out for a moment. I think the best-fit line between a silent protagonist and a chatterbox protagonist can be seen in the way Alphadream handles the heroes in the Mario & Luigi RPG series. We actually see the Mario brothers talk and interact with other characters, showing some personality, but their gibberish hides their words, making us use our imaginations to think up what exactly they say. I wish Nintendo would at least use that method more often.
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I agree with what Fawful Fan just said. I quite enjoy the gibberish.
I'd also like to mention that I actually use my Mii in Mario Kart Wii a lot (more than Luigi!). I find her voice to be cute and somewhat fitting. Then again, my Mii is far cuter than I am and I don't even like my voice in real-life. Sigh...
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The silent protagonist thing doesn't really bother me much. Though these characters are pretty staple in most of the games I play.
The Mario and Zelda games have very good reasons for minimal voice acting apart from grunts, giggles, yells, screams, and a few one-liners (yes, there are, like two one-liners in TWW; "THAAANK YOOOOOU!!" "C'MAWN!").
"MARIO! HOW DARE YOU DISTURB MY FAMILY VACATION!" Bowser and the toads are the only voices I couldn't stand hearing. The rest of the speaking characters mainly suffered from poorly written dialogue. Peach got the worst of it. Why the dukar did they have to make her into a bimbo?
I don't even need to wonder what's for dinner, because I already know it's going to be either Octorok or 'lotsa spaghetti'. Also, there's a rumor that the reason Tetra's Trackers was omitted from the Four Swords Adventures releases outside Japan was because it had full voice acting. Most likely either couldn't find suitable actors to dub the characters (I can't remember if it was just Tetra that spoke or if her crew had a few vocal moments as well), or they were just lazy.
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While I don't agree with their reasoning behind the "silent protagonists", I must say that I'd prefer Mario's voice as it stands to babbling about this and that. The M&L series had the perfect amount of "speaking", IMO, and handled their lack of dialogue nicely with the few set gibberish phrases. One thing's for darn sure, though; Bowser and crew are the last characters I ever want to see getting a speaking role.
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Why? What if Bowser had a good voice actor?
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Why? What if Bowser had a good voice actor?
I find it hard to believe that will happen. I don't think I could stand the growling tone in his voice. I liked the voice of King Koopa of the Mario cartoons, but it doesn't seem like it'd fit Bowser's appearance (imagine Bowser from (insert GameCube or Wii Mario game here) saying "That dino-twerp's eating me out of house and home!"). The voice didn't seem like it took the character seriously, which is why it worked so well, but it just wouldn't mesh well with the more realistic Bowser of the games.
If you recall Peach's voice in Super Mario 64, that was almost perfect, it was serious when she had a somewhat-serious look. I can't imagine her with that voice now, unfortunately.
If Super Mario Dragonball Z (or whatever) is anything to go by, then yes, the set gibberish phrases were very effective, especially Luigi.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm content with Mario, Link, whoever just making a noise every now and then, but there's not a reason in the world everybody else in the game(s) shouldn't get a voice box.
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There needs to be a Fungi Forums competition where we give voices to the Super Mario RPG characters. If nothing else, it gives someone the chance to pronounce Geno's unpronounceable real name.
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I find it hard to believe that will happen. I don't think I could stand the growling tone in his voice. I liked the voice of King Koopa of the Mario cartoons, but it doesn't seem like it'd fit Bowser's appearance (imagine Bowser from (insert GameCube or Wii Mario game here) saying "That dino-twerp's eating me out of house and home!"). The voice didn't seem like it took the character seriously, which is why it worked so well, but it just wouldn't mesh well with the more realistic Bowser of the games.
Exactly.
If you recall Peach's voice in Super Mario 64, that was almost perfect, it was serious when she had a somewhat-serious look. I can't imagine her with that voice now, unfortunately.
I agree completely, which is ironic, as her voice was a last-minute addition, and she was voiced by Leslie Swan, who generally works in localization, for the only time (IIRC) in all of Mario history.
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I find it hard to believe that will happen. I don't think I could stand the growling tone in his voice.
I think it can be done. I just don't like it when people say that there shouldn't be voice acting because onscreen text is better than a bad vocal performance. How about having a GOOD vocal performance?
Just imagine the transfer from silent films to sound films. If viewers kept on insisting that they preferred captions, filmmakers may not have that artistic dimension to work with (not that silent films are a bad thing, just that artists may not have as many creative options). Let's take a critically acclaimed and popular film, like The Incredibles, for example. If it was a silent movie with captions, would you still care about the story and characters? Of course you would! But would you be as immersed into the experience? I doubt it. So if a non-playable character is already provided some characterization with dialogue, why not go all the way with the immersion?
Note: I'm not saying that video games must be more like movies! Just considering the immersion film provides in comparison to more cinema-like moments in certain games.
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Even in Mario Sunshine, EVERYONE talked, except for Mario. Its CRAZY!
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Even in Mario Sunshine, EVERYONE talked, except for Mario. Its CRAZY!
Incorrect. He speaks in the Japanese version of the game around the time of the airplane scene including, "Looks like a giant [unintelligible]", and, "Looks-a like-a Mario's gonna have to find a job!"
I've always wondered why people say Mario talking would destroy the very fabric of Mario games... like it's some desecration or something. Or, they believe that all proponents of Mario talking would automatically mean that they want him to just jabber on and on or whatever.
I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again. Nintendo needs to stop their "silent protagonist" crap. I mean, come on, people say it's tradition, but he talked in the Japanese version of Sunshine and not our version. Nintendo broke their own [darn] "tradition." Having Mario speak a complete sentence every now and again would be a VERY welcome addition to Mario games. You can't sit there and tell me that Mario has nothing on his mind. Everyone else, including his brother, has crap to say all the time. Also, Mario talks a ton in the Gamecube sports games. Transfer it over to the epic adventure games without screwing it up! Come on Nintendo, you're a big boy now... you can do it.
By the time Nintendo decides to have Mario speak more, Martinet will probably already have passed away.
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Exactly.
I agree completely, which is ironic, as her voice was a last-minute addition, and she was voiced by Leslie Swan, who generally works in localization, for the only time (IIRC) in all of Mario history.
She was Peach in a couple of other N64 games, and she re-recorded her lines for SM64DS.
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"Looks-a like-a Mario's gonna have to find a job!"
For a second I thought it said "Looks-a like-a Mario's gonna have to JUMP!!" Which would totally work.
By the time Nintendo decides to have Mario speak more, Martinet will probably already have passed away.
Well, at least then they'll have no choice but to find someone who can give Mario a deeper voice for once. There's always been this thought at the back of my mind that Mario's voice is too high. I mean, it's not so high as to clearly not match the character, but it just seemed like a different voice could be more appropriate. Luigi's voice seems to be at the right pitch.
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Luigi's voice has run the gamet of tone... which has been very annoying to say the least.
He had a deeper tone in the N64 sports games, the one I liked the most. I dunno why they decided to change it.
He had a lighter, but still acceptable voice in the GCN sports game. That's the one that should be 100% consistent, if it has to be that voice. For some reason though, it keeps changing slightly from game to game.
In Brawl, he had the most disappointing voice which is the one Nintendo likes to use now. It was the wimpiest voice Nintendo could've asked Martinet to voice act for. It wasn't that prevalent in Galaxy, but it still had way too many hints towards his new style of complete and utter wimpiness.
It's like Martinet doesn't even care to voice Luigi. Notice that he only does the You Numbah One/Waaaario Eeeerrggh/Everbody cheating but Waluigi/Awww Baby Mario when asked, and forgets Luigi. I watched an interview where he was talking about how he loved voicing the characters, then went into character naturally voicing the aforementioned with enthusiasm, then he just threw in a weak "ahhh Luigi" at the end that didn't even remotely sound like Luigi. He never mentions Luigi in his interviews, as far as I know.
The only place that he did voice Luigi was in that Animal Crossing video where he's playing along with other people. Now that's what I like to hear.
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Yeah. His voice was seriously inconsistent in the N64 games. Deep in the sports games, high-pitched in the Mario Partys, and a speed-up version of Mario in SSB. It was a bit annoying which is a tad bit ironic seeing it was the N64 games (more specifically, MP1) that made me starting liking Luigi to begin with.
I wasn't aware of that stuff with Martinet though. Hmm.
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Incorrect. He speaks in the Japanese version of the game around the time of the airplane scene including, "Looks like a giant [unintelligible]", and, "Looks-a like-a Mario's gonna have to find a job!"
Can someone find this for me and link me? I can't find it on Youtube.
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Can someone find this for me and link me? I can't find it on Youtube.
NintendoExpert89 captured the clip, I believe, so ask him, but I doubt he's around. I think he's still on my AIM list, so I'll ask him.
Oh wait, he sent me the clip so I could have a listen myself. I'd have to dig around to find it.
Update as of 10 seconds ago within this post: found it. See if this attachment works.
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NintendoExpert89 captured the clip, I believe, so ask him, but I doubt he's around. I think he's still on my AIM list, so I'll ask him.
Oh wait, he sent me the clip so I could have a listen myself. I'd have to dig around to find it.
Update as of 10 seconds ago within this post: found it. See if this attachment works.
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It works, and it is amazing. I wonder why they took it out. :/
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I am equally in awe and confused.
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Heh, that's a cute clip, Trainman. Mario and Toadsworth chatting in the background. I'm surprised it's in English though; isn't this in the Japanese version?
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There isn't any Japanese dialogue ever.
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...ok, that's it, we're burning down the NOA building. There is NO reason they should have taken that out. That was great.
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They also took out a clip of Mario making a sound when you do the dive thing, because it sort of sounded like Mario was saying "F*ck you". (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRDLi62qwaE)
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NintendoExpert89 captured the clip, I believe, so ask him, but I doubt he's around. I think he's still on my AIM list, so I'll ask him.
Oh wait, he sent me the clip so I could have a listen myself. I'd have to dig around to find it.
Update as of 10 seconds ago within this post: found it. See if this attachment works.
Did you take down the attachment? I can't seem to find it.
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You have to login to see it.
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Heh, that's a cute clip, Trainman. Mario and Toadsworth chatting in the background. I'm surprised it's in English though; isn't this in the Japanese version?
Yes, that's the Japanese version. I dunno why they took an English speaking part out of... ya know, the English-speaking country's version.
Also Kimimaru, the attachment will be left there until the end of time, so I can only suggest trying out Fawful Fan's advice if it's not working for you.