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Author Topic: 360, the NXE, Avatars, and etc... VS Nintendo and the "Casuals"  (Read 9552 times)

Forest Guy

  • Anything else?
« on: November 24, 2008, 07:44:08 PM »
With the onset of Microsoft's new plan to leech casual gamers off from Nintendo, it's really gotten me thinking. I like to consider myself to almost be a casual gamer. I'm content playing Mario Party or Bomberman over hardcore high technicaaal stuff from PS3. I don't agree with Nintendo's definition of a casual gamer. What they really mean when they say "casual" is people over 60 or under 6, or who don't know what a video game is. At first I was all for Nintendo going the friendly atmosphere route, I thought the Wii looked really neat.
Yet nowI find myself every day growing more disgusted with Nintendo's new philosophy on games. A lot of their games aren't really "casual" so much as they are just lazy. Originally I bought a 360 for the purpose of waiting through Nintendo droughts, however I never thought these droughts would become so extreme. Because of this, I'm starting to like my 360 more than my Wii now.

Now what really gets me though is how Microsoft is trying to embark onto this casual route too, in hopes to reclaim their position as Micro$oft. I love NXE, avatars, and the whole new feel they've given 360. In fact, it's funny because Microsoft is blatantly ripping off of Nintendo, however they're executing it over 9000 times better. Avatars are a great example of this. They still have that undetailed, simplistic look of the Miis however they deliver a better idea of what the Mii is supposed to be doing. Miis were originally meant to be a representative of yourself within games, and thats a brilliant idea. Miis are one of the few things I still like about Nintendo. However with the advent of avatars, I see how Miis could be so much better. Look at my avatar for an idea of this.
Avatar:
Me: 

This is a great showing of just how much customization the avatars have, while still retaining the simple, friendly feel. My Mii looks pretty good, but it's nowhere near as great as this avatar.

Because of all this, I'm growing more and more intolerant of Nintendo. I remember a time when TMK's upcoming games list was steadily populated by 6 or 7 Mario games year round. Now we have... one. I'm not asking for Super Mario Galaxy to come out every year, but really. Nintendo's completely turned their back on what made them so good years ago: their ability to use their great franchises to make fun games. Nintendo's always been acclaimed for just how fun they are, and they're trying to take that to the extreme with the Wii. But all these attempts to be fun and casual and all that nonesense is all very lazy. Wii Sports I'll admit was incredibly fun. For about a month. One of the aspects of something being fun is that you can do it over and over and it stays fresh. But there's only so many times I could play WIi Bowling without it losing its novelty.
What are all their 2nd party studios doing right now? What's Intelligent Systems working on? Where's that Kirby game that got cancelled for Gamecube and moved to Wii? Things like Mario, Kirby, and Star Fox have never been viewed as hardcore, so why should they be now? I enjoy the grandiose, massive game like Metroid Prime 3 now and then, but at the same time I'd be happy if they just pumped out Mario shovelware over and over. Right now... I'm even looking back fondly on the good old days when each new year brought a new Mario Party.

As bad as it sounds, I really want Nintendo to fail this time around. I really do. I want them to do badly so that people will stop buying Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Sewing, and Wii Sitting games, and then they can go back to doing what they do best: NINTENDO games. (Star Fox must have starved to death by now)


So why did I make this thread? Maybe to let out a little steam. Maybe to see I'm not the only one. I don't necessarily want it to be a giant Anti-Nintendo Fest because I'd probably get flamed off the forums for that. I guess I just want people to come in, maybe reminisce about the golden age of nintendo. Perhaps talk about 360 in general. Anything pertaining to this subject.
= = = = = = =
Agender, curry fan, Top 10 lister, indie dev, gym hitter, musician, et al.

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2008, 08:20:00 PM »
There is no "casual" and "hardcore". There is only the up market and down market. The down market are the consumers that have not yet been tapped into in terms of selling a product. The up market are the consumers that have. Nintendo basically realized that there is a whole ocean of untapped buyers out there that they could benefit from, and they [darn] well did.

For the record, the majority of the so called "lazy" titles released for the Wii don't even come from Nintendo themselves. They come from third parties who try to ride Nintendo waves and don't really understand what their plan was from the beginning.

« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2008, 10:26:13 PM »
I guess it depends, because some people prefer Nintendo Miis versus Microsoft Avatars. IGN had an article comparing the two and they thought Miis were better. Paul Thurrott likes the new update to the Xbox 360 except for the Avatars. I'd agree with him on that part because I never liked the idea of representing myself as a virtual person (yeah, go ahead, declare today "pick on the furry" day). Maybe I'm just used to the classic avatars/buddy icons, whichcan become pretty creative and even funny.  I don't see how that same thing can apply to a virtual person unless they open it up to allow custom clothes and maybe custom body builds. At the least, provide an option to the user on whether to have Avatars everywhere.

As Miis seem to have become pretty popular despite what looks like a limited set of things to choose from (to this day I don't know why I don't have complete control over the color of the shirt and pants), I guess complete customization isn't necessary. Miis do let you move stuff around. And I'll venture a guess that because of the caricature style, it's easier to be satisfied with an abstraction of yourself. If you're designing something that looks remotely realistic, you'll be looking more for the exact stuff that matches you. If that stuff isn't available, it seems like a limitation. Whereas with a caricature you can step back and think of creative uses for the different things at your disposal to create something that does resemble you.

The biggest complaint I have is that this interface upgrade for XBox 360 is mandatory. It sounds like it's replacing the entire interface for a console. And I'm still stuck in the 90s where I think consoles shouldn't get upgrades (or if they do, you have the choice on whether to use them - usually they're for added functionality like the Expansion Pak, not system updates or interface changes). Some people will like the change, sure. But some may hold fast to the old blades layout - which I always thought was cool.

I'm sure people will find a way to bring the old interface back onto the XBox 360. Nintendo can't keep the Homebrew Channel off the Wii as that team keeps getting around the Wii system updates. I thought there was something against modding XBox 360s (well, that goes for any console in general), something that made it difficult to specifically mod an XBox 360. But people got Linux to work on PS3. There's a Guitar Hero clone for the Commodore 64. People will find a way.
You didn't say wot wot.

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2008, 10:36:29 PM »
Thank you Chef.

Me, I'm fairly satisfied as far as Mario goes on the Wii. All I ask is for a real RPG, but I'm sure Paper Mario will return to its roots for the next game. Super Paper Mario wasn't bad--it just wasn't an RPG, and that's the only reason everyone complains about it... and that's a dumb reason.

There is one thing I do want badly on the Wii, and I could go on and on in detail about how exactly I want it: F-ZERO. Because I have almost everything in the game plotted out the way I hope it would be, I want this idea to be a reality, and I want it as soon as possible. I couldn't, however, go on and on about what I want to see in the next Zelda, so I'll wait patiently until it comes.

On the subject of Miis and these Avatars: The avatars have ears!! That's all I've got...
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

Glorb

  • Banned
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2008, 01:09:38 AM »
Regarding avatars: Personally, I've always thought that avatars as part of an online console service are gimmicky and not worth more than five minutes of my time.

Regarding Wii: There's still potential, yeah, but it's not being put to good enough use. Developers still have this impression that the mere presence of motion controls counts as innovation, and this equals lazy game development. If you can strum an in-game guitar with the nunchuck, it doen't matter how badly the game recognizes your motions as long as they can show it in commercials and slap it as a feature on the back of the box. Sometimes people want a good game, not a focus-group-developed fun-for-all-ages casual software program designed for the lowest common denomenator.
every

« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2008, 01:20:36 AM »
Regarding avatars: I gave my avatar dot eyes in honor of Bird Person.



Regarding Wii: I've only played 4 Wii games where the controller is put to actual good fun worthwhile use:

Wii Sports
WarioWare: Smooth Moves
Metroid Prime 3 Corruption
No More Heroes

Chupperson Weird

  • Not interested.
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2008, 01:39:30 AM »
I've never wanted to represent myself in games, except Wii Sports. I want to control a character that is completely separate from me. Link's name is Link.
At any rate, one of my friends just got a 360 and made me see that there is awesomeness afoot, which means I will be getting a 360 and a PS3 along with a PSP before too long. I appreciate the Wii and actually really like it for VC since you can make it play Dracula X, but as it stands now there are not a lot of awesome games for it. And let me make clear that I don't generally call standard Nintendo franchise installments awesome. They are at the least expected. (Half the time we don't even get that these days though.)
I'm just starting to get a tiny bit annoyed at the amount of games for 5-year-olds though. I never had an issue with GameCube's family friendliness, since it had a good amount of awesome games. But Wii doesn't have enough awesome yet. Maybe towards the end of its lifespan it might. I hope so, but it can't hurt to own the other two systems, where more awesome is going down as we speak.
That was a joke.

ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2008, 08:31:39 AM »
It's like the post I wanted to make but had too much of a "reputation" to.
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2008, 09:03:46 AM »
Just wait until Sony Release Home - Avatars won't just look like you, they'll have a fully customisable room, an outdoor place to meet other PS3 users, and streamed gaming media from developers and Sony...essentially, a giant advertising and 3D Personal Console custimisation kit all in one!

For those not in the know: http://www.us.playstation.com/PSN/Home

And thus, all three companies now have an avatar system either out (Nintendo/Microsoft) Or Due out this month (Sony) - Things are about to get interesting!
All worlds shall soon be ruled by the one...Count Bleck!

Glorb

  • Banned
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2008, 10:54:41 AM »
I meant to mention Home in my last post here but....eh, didn't. Anyway, should I ever get a PS3, I intend to vigorously not use Home. It just seems ridiculously gimmicky and unneccesary. It's the equivalent of making the Windows desktop into a full-3D interactive free-roaming city, with downloadable skins instead of wallpaper and enterable buildings instead of icons. Sure, it sounds cool on paper, but when you get down to it, it's just a goofy ripoff of Tron without the neon colors.
every

Reading

  • is FUNdamental
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2008, 12:18:30 PM »
I don't really have an opinion when it comes to this sort of thing, because I don't look at video game consoles as, really, video game consoles; they're just devices I use to play games and have fun. I don't use my Wii for anything other than games, and when I get my Xbox 360, you can bet I'll never be on Xbox Live.

The only reason I'm getting a 360 in the first place is so I can play games that aren't on the Wii. I don't really understand the nature of video game systems as it is. When I want to watch a movie, I go to the theater and watch it, or watch it on DVD by plugging it into my TV. But if I want a video game, first I have to see what system(s) it's on, then buy the game, then upgrade my firmware, then set up all these "fun" little extras and go in this mode and do that and aaaaaahhhhh. (Before someone says "you don't have to set up all those things just to play a game", I know. I'm making an example of all the things systems have that I never use.)

I'm just interested in what games are being made that I would potentially be into. I don't even wait to look at a game's general reception or reviews after it comes out; if I like the series, it's an insta-buy, with the possible exception of things like miscellaneous Mario sports games (I'm usually only into games with an actual plot). I'm actually pleased by that one upcoming Mario game; while I liked the Mario Party series, they've drained just about all of the fun they could out of it by this point, unless they come up with some entirely new concept in Mario Party 9, which I hope they do. I think it's better to have one full-quality game up there than 6 pointless spinoffs. That said, it would be even better if there was more than one of those. In terms of what I'd like to see from Nintendo at the moment, another classic 2D Mario adventure in the vein of New SMB would hit the spot - as long as it was, style-wise, more like SMB3 or some such (I didn't really like the 3D character models), and another Paper Mario RPG would possibly be even better. A new and original story will always make me interested as well, as well as an overall darker feel, but I don't think Nintendo's going to go very far in that direction. It's one of the reasons I love Super Paper Mario, though...
« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 12:20:51 PM by Reading »
We went to see them for the first time in 5 years because they were going away for 3 years.

Chupperson Weird

  • Not interested.
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2008, 12:23:09 PM »
Games are made on a continuously improving technological basis. DVDs are manufactured to one standard. Needing to upgrade firmware for certain things is completely logical now.
That was a joke.

Luigison

  • Old Person™
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2008, 08:44:34 AM »
Home's avatars are really life-like.  You have control of so much about your avatar that it can be overwelming.  For example, you can place each eye indepdent of the other.  So far I like Nintendo's Miis better, but with practice I'm sure I can make just about any person with Home's avatars. 

Home is much more than I'd thought it would be.  It's kind of like playing a new meta Sims game mixed with Animal Crossing, but with real people, games, and movies.  The bowling and Namco games are actually a nice touch.  While the game and movie trailers seemed useless to me it first, it became clear that it was cool to talk with someone about them as they were playing.  I'm not completely sold on Home yet, but the beta is pretty interesting so far. 
“Evolution has shaped us with perceptions that allow us to survive. But part of that involves hiding from us the stuff we don’t need to know."

« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2008, 04:06:49 PM »
Also regarding avatars:


He was wearing glasses but almost everyone on my friend list was, so I took them off to avoid being part of a fad.

Yeah, if they were to fight Miis, these would seriously win. The amount of detail and attention are that of Microsoft actually beats those of Nintendo.

Sony's Home thing sounds stupid...

The only thing that I hate about avatars is that they lack a certain feature from their competetors:

Nintendo: Most Wii games have some kind of Mii intergration.
Sony: Well, all of Home, I guess.

Did you realize already? Avatars are useless. There are only a few games were you can use them but they're all dumb.

SolidShroom

  • Poop Man
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2008, 04:10:14 PM »
Man, the Nintendo is doing the right thing with the DS. I mean, everyone loves the DS. It has games that appeal to younger people and people not as interested in games, while it still has games that make people who love games happy, and it even has some games which fit into both. Plus, it has no trouble making use of its special features, and when they are not needed they do not get in the way. Why can't Nintendo do that with the Wii?

« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2008, 04:34:59 PM »

MaxVance

  • Vance Vance Revolution
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2008, 07:40:43 PM »
Regarding the Wii, one problem with it is the nontraditional controls. Where the DS still has all the same buttons that the SNES had (thus making it similiar to most of the other controllers in gaming history) in addition to its touch screen and microphone, the Wii Remote is built entirely around its motion-sensing ability, with the D-pad and a few buttons basically thrown on there. Thus developers are even more compelled to use this (dare I say it?) gimmick in their games.

I also agree with SolidShroom about the DS being better overall.
Remember that your first Goomba boldly you walk? When Mario touched that mushroom being brought up more largely remember that you are surprised? Miscalculate your jump that pit remember that it falls?

Chupperson Weird

  • Not interested.
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2008, 10:05:16 PM »
Sadly(?), the best thing about the Wii right now is VC games and ease of homebrew. And the ability to install foreign VC games with homebrew.
That was a joke.

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2008, 10:22:45 PM »
Because you need that for anything other than Nintendo 64 games--if you're using homebrew you can just use an emulator!

Neither the DS nor the Wii has excited me for a while. I love Brawl, Galaxy etc. though. I could stand to get Wario Land and some others if I weren't saving up, but most Wii games I've missed, I can get on the 360, where they're better... I need to start working... this summer and next year.

I'm always hesitant about the DS because my lite's shoulder buttons are dead and my old DS has a broken hinge and, being an old DS, has sooty screens that I hate looking at.

But I don't hate Nintendo like some fellows have come to. I don't have any Wii games that I can say have disappointed me--I've gotten what I've expected each time, and in the cases of some, more. Except the Zapper. I want more games that are made for the Zapper.
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

Kojinka

  • Bruised
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2008, 10:28:57 PM »
I had been think about getting a PS2 for at least a year.  Part of the reason I decided to get one this 4th quarter is because I am not impressed with the Wii's holiday line-up this year. (Didn't get a PS3 because there aren't enough games on it that catch my interest yet.)
I consider myself to be neither a casual by Nintendo's definition, nor am I hardcore.  As a gamer, I'm the in-between.
However, there are a few DS games that I'd like to get.
Regards, Uncle Dolan

SolidShroom

  • Poop Man
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2008, 12:37:21 AM »
Regarding the Wii, one problem with it is the nontraditional controls. Where the DS still has all the same buttons that the SNES had (thus making it similiar to most of the other controllers in gaming history) in addition to its touch screen and microphone, the Wii Remote is built entirely around its motion-sensing ability, with the D-pad and a few buttons basically thrown on there. Thus developers are even more compelled to use this (dare I say it?) gimmick in their games.

I also agree with SolidShroom about the DS being better overall.
But both the Classic Controller and GameCube controller are both quite similar to the SNES controller. Still, I understand your point when you explain how developers are compelled to use the default control scheme for the Wii.

Additionally, I concur with Bird Person concerning the Zapper. The Zapper needs to be utilized much more. I mean, imagine the possibilities it contains. Imagine a FPS combined with a rail shooter. If done correctly, that would be awesome.

I'm really looking forward to the Wii MotionPlus. Perhaps it'll make the Wii like everyone imagined when it was first strongly revealed to the public.

Chupperson Weird

  • Not interested.
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2008, 02:13:39 AM »
Imagine a FPS combined with a rail shooter.
Ghost Squad?

Also, I'd rather use the official Dracula X: Rondo of Blood VC release than a poorly emulated version on Hu-Go!
That was a joke.

Glorb

  • Banned
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2008, 04:29:28 PM »
An FPS combined with a rail shooter? As in, an FPS with rail shooter segments or a rail shooter with the occasional ability to walk by yourself?
every

SolidShroom

  • Poop Man
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2008, 02:40:09 AM »
As in a game where you use the light gun to aim and shoot at the screen, like in a rail shooter, yet actually move around like in an FPS. Also, I never played Ghost Squad except for in the arcade and I don't really remember it.

Glorb

  • Banned
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2008, 08:41:34 AM »
As in, Time Crisis 4?

At least, the PS3 version.
every

ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2008, 12:30:01 PM »
I understand that game was extraordinarily bad.
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2008, 12:53:10 PM »
I might be thinking of the wrong game, but isn't Time Crisis 4 on-rails? I definitely remember not being able to move on my own. (I'm thinking of the arcade game where you have a gigantic pistol, and the top moves when you shoot, and there's a pedal you step on to take cover)

I understand that game was extraordinarily bad.
The "I understand" part implies that you have never played the game before, in which case let me inform you you should never review a game before you've played it. If you have played it, then you are either retarded or incapable of comprehending fun. Because the game described above is awesome.

ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2008, 07:38:30 PM »
Well some Time Crisis game got a bad rap.

you should never review a game before you've played it.
That's the sort of thinking that resulted in the Official Nintendo Seal.
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

Glorb

  • Banned
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2008, 02:30:00 PM »
The PS3 version of TC4 was pretty crappy, since you were paying some $70 for a game that wasn't worth $10.
every

« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2008, 03:52:51 PM »
Yeah, I can imagine that game being sucky on a console, but it was supa fun in arcade.

ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2008, 08:28:42 AM »
The PS3 version of TC4 was pretty crappy, since you were paying some $70 for a game that wasn't worth $10.
Yeah, that's the one I meant.
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

Forest Guy

  • Anything else?
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2008, 05:10:24 PM »
I dunno, the problem with Wii isn't 3rd parties. Honestly, 3rd parties are doing a great job. Stuff like Resident Evil 4 (ironically one of the few truly awesome games is a remake), Boom Blox, Zack & Wiki, Mega Man 9, Castlevania Judgment... that' just a handful of the decent stuff 3rd parties are putting out and with stuff like The Conduit and Deadly Creatures coming out eventually, it's clear the 3rd parties are hauling their share, contrary to whatever Reggie Fils Aime may say..
The real problem is coming from Nintendo itself. Once upon a time, basically every single game Nintendo's 1st party offered was absolute gold. We now live in a time when Nintendo itself just doesn't try that hard anymore. Yeah sure, we have stuff like Galaxy and Metroid Prime and to some extent Brawl/Mario Kart/Paper Mario to demonstrate goodness from Nintendo, but other stuff that should be great like these examples just aren't anywhere close.  Twilight Princess, regardless of being originally for the cube, just wasn't the game it should have been. Pokemon Battle Revolution and Pokemon Ranch are disasters.

Animal Crossing (which Nintendo claimed was its big hardcore game of Q4) only has approximately 5% new material in it while the rest of the game is EXACTLY (not exaggerating) the same as the DS version. It's stuff like this that makes me really lose touch with Nintendo. Lemme show ya's something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6t4pPHmSU0&feature=related

Watch that video. the commercial for Animal Crossing City Folk. This sums it up. The last straw. Like I said, Nintendo originally said Animal Crossing was going to be their big game type game of the season. But this is it? Their big game game is being marketed to bored housewives, aka who they want their audience to be now.  See, this is what I mean when Nintendo's problem is being lazy. Look what they did here. They took Animal Crossing DS, added in a handful of new features, but it's essentially the same game. Why? Because they know all these 40 year olds didnt buy the one on DS. They know they don't have to add a lot in because it will be bought regardless.
I am 100% dissatisfied with Animal Crossing City Folk, and this marks the absolute last time I buy a 1st party game on Wii without playing it first. That's a big deal because I'm sure you'll all agree with me that at one time we could all just buy a Nintendo developed game because that essentially meant it was almost guaranteed to be great. 3rd party games were the one we would need to filter buy playing at a friend's house or renting. But look at the facts. Of the games that are decent on Wii and made by Nintendo, the majority were by 2nd party internally owned studios (Brawl, Prime, Paper Mario). Point is, Nintendo as a 1st party just isn't cutting it anymore. Come to think of it, the only 1st party game I can think of that I really truly love is Galaxy, and that's it.


That's basically it though. That's the problem, the point, and it's not gonna go away. Nintendo has a new chunk of consumers eating out of its hand, and they're well aware of it, and they like it. That's how they can get away with re-releasing Gamecube games with Wii controls or making low quality 1st party titles like Animal Crossing. The new audience won't notice or care and so long as they keep buying, Nintendo won't stop to pull their head out of their own ass. They just don't make games for people who like playing games, anymore.
= = = = = = =
Agender, curry fan, Top 10 lister, indie dev, gym hitter, musician, et al.

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