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Author Topic: Numbers and Dates in the Mushroom World  (Read 21292 times)

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2011, 01:07:39 PM »
I dunno why you keep turning to the cartoons for evidence when they're clearly a different beast than the games.

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2011, 01:17:01 PM »
I'm not using them as a primary source, but since there's no real standards on Mario canon, it's fun to implement parts of them, particularly the parts that come kinda close to almost being serious.

I mean, it's not like the games alone are that much more coherent.
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2011, 01:44:36 PM »
No but it's pretty obvious that the cartoons are set in a different continuity than the games, however loose the games' continuity may be.

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2011, 04:09:13 PM »
When Bowser went back in time in Yoshi's Island DS to kidnap the Star Babies, he split the timeline. In the original timeline, Mario and Luigi grew up alongside Peach and Bowser in the Mushroom World all their lives. In the split one, Mr. and Mrs. Mario decided it was too dangerous in the Mushroom World and sent Mario and Luigi to Earth, in Brooklyn, where they eventually found their way back.

That doesn't mean that Mushroom Kingdom history prior to the split or its approximate size have to be different.

And of course, the cartoons still are not to be taken totally at face value, as they are rather stupid most of the time.
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2011, 05:26:29 PM »
When I said "continuity" I meant what's presented in the games, not what you made up based on what's presented in the games.

At least you admit the cartoons are stupid.

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2011, 07:54:47 PM »
Well, if "continuity" is defined as "what's presented in the games", then the cartoons can't possibly have continuity.

It's all what we make up. Do you think Miyamoto has a big Word document somewhere detailing the history and politics of the Mushroom World, or that he ever devotes more than two minutes per console generation to making the Mushroom World be coherent and realistic? 

Other than SML 1 and 2 and PM 1 and 2, it's pretty hard to even prove that any two games occurred in the same universe. Mariology of any kind requires some synthesis on our part.

And it's for fun.
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2011, 09:03:38 PM »
What about all the callbacks that are made to previous games? Granted this happens mostly in spin-offs calling back to previous spin-offs or games in the main series, but it's definitely something. Otherwise I thought the assumption was that the games took place in order of release save for a few special cases (such as Yoshi's Island, or Mario Party 2's plot being a stage show).

I can understand filling in the blanks ourselves in some areas but having to make Mario's personal backstory a fustercluck just so we can use the cartoons as evidence comes off as entirely counter-intuitive to me. I say it's easier to just say "The cartoons have nothing to do with the games and Mario and Luigi are native Mushroom Kingdom residents through and through". This isn't Sonic after all.

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2011, 09:47:51 PM »
The nice thing about my theory, though, is that it allows the reader to focus just on the game timeline (where Mario and Luigi have lived in the Mushroom Kingdom all their lives) and completely ignore the branch off that leads into a timeline loosely based on the cartoons, comics, and movie, if they choose. And really, the most fustered-up part of my theory is just the in-game story of Yoshi's Island DS itself.

In Star Wars canon, the policy used to be that any source that contradicted canon had to be thrown out entirely, but since 2005, they've changed it so that the contradictory parts can be surgically removed, and anything that doesn't contradict higher canon can stay. For example, the N64 podracing game used to be totally non-canonical because it could depict Anakin podracing multiple times leading up to the Boonta Eve Classic, but since the policy change, it can be considered partially canon; the part about Anakin racing before Episode I is thrown out, but all the planets and locations that were created for the game can still be considered to be canonical. I try to take that kind of approach in my Mario canonizing. There's nothing in the games to say there's not a Founder's Day, and it's not completely stupid, so hey why not.

What about all the callbacks that are made to previous games? Granted this happens mostly in spin-offs calling back to previous spin-offs or games in the main series, but it's definitely something. Otherwise I thought the assumption was that the games took place in order of release save for a few special cases (such as Yoshi's Island, or Mario Party 2's plot being a stage show).
Callbacks are rarely explicit, though. Like, a Geno doll shows up in Superstar Saga, but Mario doesn't say, "Hey! I recognize that!" There's very rarely anything like the ties between Zelda games. It's pretty much just Lady Bow in TTYD saying "Oh, hey, remember our last adventure? That was fun!" and a general sense (in more recent games) that Mario has a reputation for rescuing Peach from Bowser. There's a few more ties if you expand out to manual text (SMW's manual explicitly says it takes place after SMB3, and SMB3's manual implies that it takes place after SMB, TLL, or both), but still, it's pretty sparse. They tell us that the games all take place in similar universes, but to say they're all in one universe and are all consecutive in some fashion is a leap on our part.

(Also, there's no way that the Parties and Karts should be placed in the timeline along with all the other games in order of release. It's too big of a shift to have Bowser crashing Mario's party one day and getting punched into the sun by Mario the next. The Mario Party games are stated to take place in "Mario Party World", so let's assume that's some kind of alternate universe separate from the Mushroom World of the main series games, and that the Karts and sports games also take place there.)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 12:24:48 AM by CrossEyed7 »
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2011, 11:31:25 PM »
Mario doesn't say much of anything, so him commenting about the Geno doll would be something.  XD

"Asuperpotato" (Mario babble from Superstar Saga)
Kinopio is the ultimate video game character! Who else can drive a kart, host parties, play tennis, give good advice and items, and is almost always happy??

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2012, 11:32:02 AM »
c. 374 BF: The Pixl Uprising
The Pixl Queen uses her mind-control powers to lead her people in a revolt against their masters, and the Ancients are conquered and enslaved by the Pixls. The inheritors of the original twelve Pixls fight back, capturing the Pixls in Catch Cards and healing them. The last surviving inheritor makes his way to the Pixl Queen's castle, where one of his Pixls sacrifices himself to defeat the Queen. The survivor takes the Dark Prognosticus and runs away with it, likely being the founder the Tribe of Darkness. The Ancients limit the powers and intelligence of the Pixls, leading to the slow decline of their once great civilization, the secret of Pixl creation fading into obscurity with them.
I wonder if Intelligent Systems was intentionally creating a hook here for a Pokémon-esque prequel. Because that could be interesting.
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

Sapphira

  • Inquiring
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2013, 12:40:35 AM »
What do you guys think the most likely arrangement of those is (assuming no crucial chunks are missing and they're just scrambled around)?

Major bump, I know. (Awesome thread, BTW). A while back, I was thinking about those phrases and came up with a different arrangement. Well, recently I've been going through a text dump of PMTTYD and came across something interesting. Each "room" in each area/"world" (in this case the area is Palace of Shadow) is labeled by number. Each text box/block of text in the game (excluding Tattles, apparently) is also arranged by number. It turns out there IS a correct order of the seemingly jumbled phrases. If you arrange the lines by the numerical order assigned to them, it says this:

Master of Shadow and Dark...
Stones Have Power of Stars...
Complete All Seven...
So That We, the Great Ones...
Can Live Again by the Stone...
We Know the Stars Spurn Us...
And That the Skies Lie...
But the Stars Bring Balance.

(The room numbers are 11-18, and the text blocks are 36-43, for those interested.) What's really neat is that this was the arrangement I had previously suspected.

Possible interpretation: "Master of Shadow and Dark" is Mario, or whoever seeks the Crystal Stars. The stones (Crystal Stars) hold the power of Stars. Collect all 7 Crystal Stars to revive "The Great Ones" (possibly the Shadow Queen? or maybe her kind?). The Stars despise and reject the "Great Ones," but the Stars are balanced, neutral, and can be used for good or evil. (Hence the Shadow Queen, an evil demon, creating and utilizing the Crystal Stars, while at the same time, first the Four Heroes and then Mario (good) using them to stop her.)
I'm not really sure about the "skies lie" part.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 01:14:26 AM by Sapphira »
"The surest way to happiness is to lose yourself in a cause greater than yourself."

« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2013, 08:36:02 AM »
Quote
Thoughts?

Well, your interpretation certainly is solid.


On the "And That the Skies Lie..." part: The X-Nauts live on the Moon ("sky") and only Grodus knows the true purpose of the stars, whie the other X-Nauts are clueless (?), thus "lying". idk, really.

« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2013, 12:55:44 PM »
Quote
At least you admit the cartoons are stupid.
What's so stupid about this?  Or this?
Seriously, what's so stupid about storytelling?

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2013, 02:24:54 PM »
You say that as though it's impossible for storytelling to be bad.

I watch those and all I see is godawful drawings, godawful animation, godawful acting, godawful dialog, and incredibly stupid ideas for episode premises.

So tell me, why do you insist on defending them to the core?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 02:33:48 PM by The Chef »

« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2013, 02:52:52 PM »
I don't defend them to the core.  The shows have some flaws and bad episodes, just like every other series.  But I don't see how the classical "prison escape" trope or Luigi's crowning moment of awesome are "incredibly stupid ideas."  To each his or her own, I guess.

Anyways, I may be confabulating, but wasn't there a moment in Sticker Star when a character mentions a day in our calendar?  Or was that one of the Mario & Luigi RPGs?  If so, I wouldn't be surprised if the Mushroom Kingdom had multiple calendar systems.

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