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Author Topic: A Question about Toad  (Read 6060 times)

« on: November 13, 2012, 02:12:14 PM »
I was just reviewing the from Japanese to English comparison of Super Mario RPG and wanted to ask for clarification.  In the English translation, Toads were referred to as Mushroom People/Mushroom Retainers with one specific individual named Toad.  In Japan, all the Mushroom People/Mushroom Retainers were always known as Kinopios (the Japanese name for Toad), right?  It wasn't until Paper Mario when the English translation more closely followed the Japanese naming convention.

So if I'm reading this correctly, Super Mario RPG has one Kinopio specifically named Kinopio, right?  Because Raz ("Kino") and Rani ("Nanshi") are other Kinopios that have their own names.

« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2012, 02:22:03 PM »
That's become my understanding too. Kinda like how there is a Yoshi and then there's also the species Yoshi..
Kinopio is the ultimate video game character! Who else can drive a kart, host parties, play tennis, give good advice and items, and is almost always happy??

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2012, 03:08:41 PM »
I'm pretty sure I was calling the race Toads way before Paper Mario. But I am also certain I knew it was the name of a character because of SMB2. Incidentally, I remember a specific exchange between me, five or six years old, and my dad the first time I played SMAS-SMB. He said, "If you get 100 coins you get an extra man." I took that as meaning a bonus character, and said, "Is it Toad?"

But SMB3 features multiple Toads who are very doubtfully the same one. SMAS-SMB and Game & Watch Gallery 2 put more than one on the screen at the same time. I called them Toads.
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2012, 03:11:15 PM »
The GWG series also features multiple DK Jrs. so.....

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2012, 11:25:17 PM »
Modern Manhole features manifests multiple Marios.
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2012, 12:36:41 AM »
Less alliteratively, this is ultimately about fundamental differences in American and Japanese sense of self and the concept of the individual.

Just think Pokemon. Cubone wears his mother's skull on his head. You can catch Cubone. So can everyone else. You can catch multiple Cubone. You can have a team of six Cubone. You can breed two Pokemon in the day care and get an egg, and Cubone can hatch out of that egg.

As far as I can tell, the whole Toad (and Yoshi, and Birdo) thing is the same thing. Japan would say yes, Toad is a character. And here is a Toad. And here are more Toads. Also Goomba is a character.

Look at the way they're described in even the English manuals:

Quote from: Super Mario Bros. manual
Little Goomba
A mushroom who betrayed the Mushroom Kingdom. One stomp and he dies.

Koopa Troopa (green)
Soldier of the Turtle Empire, his orders are to find and destroy Mario. Jump on him and he stops moving for a while.

Koopa Troopa (red)
This turtle is chicken! Very timid, he gets scared easily and runs back and forth a lot. Jump on him and he stops moving

Buzzy Beetle
Quite the toughy, fireballs don't even faze him.

The Hammer Brothers
These wily twin-brother turtles come at you throwing hammers.

Spiny
Lakitu's pet, but a wild fighter. You can't kill him by jumping on top of him.

Lakitu
The mysterious turtle who controls the clouds. He chases after Mario and drops Spiny's eggs on top of him.

Quote from: Super Mario Bros. 2 manual
Shyguy - Red
A member of the "8 bits" (a club from evil dreams). He wears a mask because he's shy.

Pidgit
He brings evil dreams. He can't fly on his own, so Wart gave him a flying carpet.

Ostro   
He thinks he is a girl and he spits eggs from his mouth. He'd rather be called "birdetta."

Quote from: Super Mario Land manual
Yurarin Boo
This is the big brother of Yurarin.  It moves up and down spitting out fireballs, and a superball has no effect on it.

Pionpi
Hopping about and persistently dogging Mario, no matter how many times you jump on Pionpi, he keeps coming back to life.  But you can defeat him with a superball.

Quote from: Super Mario Bros. 3 manual
Buzzy Beetle
He's back again. This time he can walk on the ceiling.

Now look at this quote from Game Informer's Miyamoto interview a couple months ago:
Quote from: Shigeru Miyamoto
If you're familiar with things like Popeye and some of the old comic characters, you would oftentimes see this cast of characters that takes on different roles depending on the comic or cartoon. They might be businessmen in one [cartoon] or a pirate in another. Depending on the story that was being told, they would change roles. So, to a certain degree, I look at our characters in a similar way and feel that they can take on different roles in different games. It's more like they're one big family, or maybe a troupe of actors.

And then this:



Miyamoto doesn't think of Mario in terms of "How many birdos exist? Is there a familial relation between the birdo you killed in this level and the birdo you killed in that level?" To Miyamoto, it's "This is the part of the story where we have a boss. Let's have Birdo play that role!" In SMB1, "Hammer Brother" is not a species -- it was two twin brothers, who reprised their role as antagonists on multiple levels. For me, a more modern example than the Popeye cartoons that Miyamoto gave would be the Muppet movies -- especially adaptations like Muppet Christmas Carol and Muppet Treasure Island, and the movies that are very self-aware about being movies, like The Muppet Movie and Great Muppet Caper. We need someone to play Bob Cratchit -- let's make it Kermit! New movie -- now Kermit and Fozzie are going to be twins!

The fans tend not to see it that way. More casual players are perfectly content to go "Oh, Yoshi! You're here again, even though I killed you two levels ago!", but more serious diehard fans want more of a Paper Mario route where there are all these members of these various species with names and stories and families and there's a whole big breathing world. And now Miyamoto is saying he doesn't want that:

Quote from: Kensuke Tanabe
The Paper Mario series started when we introduced RPG elements as a means of differentiating the game from the platformer series. Through the inclusion of this story and the characters we wrote to fit that story, we ended up giving the game a unique character. However, for Sticker Star, Mr Miyamoto asked us to create a game using only characters already found in the Mario world rather and not any of our own. So instead of focusing our attention on the story or characters we focused instead on paper. We tried to add as many creative uses of paper as we could to the game. The theme of the game is stickers and we also put a lot of effort into this (including paperisation). Creating a world and story using only Mario characters meant for example we had to give each Toad a distinctive character even if they looked the same. So it was quite a challenge but I feel that we succeeded in overcoming it.

Sticker Star is a fun game, but if it's the direction future Paper Mario games are going in terms of atmosphere and character, I am not happy. The main platformer series is for the Popeye/Muppets stageplays. Paper Mario is supposed to be where it all gets developed into an actual working multispecies world where Goombas go to college.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 01:02:09 AM by CrossEyed7 »
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2012, 08:16:41 AM »
So does that confirm that Miyamoto never liked any of the RPGs? Is he trying to wipe out any semblance of story from every last corner of the franchise now? D:

« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2012, 10:36:45 AM »
From CrossEye7's link:
Quote
Kamek is an unique character in the west, for sure, but in his home country, he’s known as Kamekku, but so are all the generic, non-talking, quickly stomped Magikoopas. In short, the Japanese make no distinction.
That's exactly why I started this thread.  I know that in the English translation of Super Mario RPG there is a Toad named Toad, since the game's text boxes reveal names.  So if I'm reading this correctly, the Japanese Super Mario RPG does indeed make a distinction, with a Kinopio named Kinopio.

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2012, 12:45:42 PM »
The main platformer series is for the Popeye/Muppets stageplays. Paper Mario is supposed to be where it all gets developed into an actual working multispecies world where Goombas go to college.

That is absolutely how I feel and exactly why I am not interested in Sticker Star for the opposite reason I wouldn't complain about Super Mario Galaxy 2 lacking a story with depth. I understand and like what Miyamoto wants for the main series, but to let that completely take over everything else defeats the purpose of having Paper Mario at all.
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2012, 07:54:01 PM »
Relevant: In Sticker Star, there's a Magikoopa named Kamek. And Mario has never met him before.

So he's not Kamek. He's Magikoopa. He is not a Magikoopa; he is Magikoopa. That is how Miyamoto thinks of characters.

Calling him Kamek just makes it painfully obvious that he should be Kammy.
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2012, 08:03:27 PM »
And then there's the battle stage in TTYD.
YYur  waYur n beYur you Yur plusYur instYur an Yur Yur whaYur

« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2012, 10:33:50 PM »
Why do you say they've never met, CE7? I haven't played the whole game yet but I never saw anything to specifically indicate one way or the other. Also, Kamek did get his own intro screen like the other major unique characters (Mario, Bowser, etc.).

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2012, 12:24:47 AM »
It's not stated outright as far as I know, but that was the impression I got from his lines when you first meet him.

Quote from: Kamek
You know, when I think "little Mario,"
I think "Bowser's perpetual enemy."
Which makes you MY enemy.

Yes... Well, this will seem rather rude
since we've only just met, but...

Let's get you out of the way quickly,
shall we? Prepare for ruin!

and then after the battle

Quote from: Kamek
Hmmm... You're as good as they say.
I can't believe I lost to you.

Calling him "little Mario" could be a reference to Yoshi's Island, but "we've only just met" and "you're as good as they say" seem to imply that this Magikoopa has not personally come into contact with Mario before. It's a bit ambiguous, though, now that I look back at it ("we've only just met" could just be referring to this meeting, rather than saying it's their first meeting; "you're as good as they say" could just mean that Kamek hasn't fought Mario before because he was a baby when they met (even though Kamek did fight Mario and Luigi in the past in Partners in Time). I just remember reading "we've only just met" and going "Oh, come on, seriously?"

(It would be easier to figure out what they were going for here if the amount of dialogue were more along the lines of other Paper Mario games.)
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2012, 02:19:59 AM »
could just mean that Kamek hasn't fought Mario before because he was a baby when they met

But, going back to your currently longest post in this thread, it's all but undeniable that Kamek is the Magikoopa in Super Mario Galaxy's intro and in New Super Mario Bros. Wii.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 02:21:50 AM by BP »
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

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