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Author Topic: muammar gaddafi  (Read 13523 times)

« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2011, 09:32:27 PM »
Read the rest of the article please. "The War Powers Resolution requires the president to notify Congress within 48 hours of committing armed forces to military action and forbids armed forces from remaining for more than 60 days, with a further 30 day withdrawal period, without an authorization of the use of military force or a declaration of war."

Only Congress has the power to declare war. Until then it is a police action.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 09:35:12 PM by PaperLuigi »
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Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2011, 09:34:22 PM »
I don't see how that invalidates the earlier claim that the President still needs approval from Congress unless the US is under direct threat.
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« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2011, 09:45:40 PM »
If the United States isn't under attack and/or if Obama doesn't have Congress's approval, he can send them into a hostile area for 60 days.

Again, you're presupposing that he needs Congress's approval to do this. He doesn't. Only after 60 days does he needs a resolution from Congress.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 09:50:28 PM by PaperLuigi »
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Luigison

  • Old Person™
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2011, 09:49:11 PM »
The same act requires that the United States itself be directly threatened before the President can do so without Congress' approval.

You're leaving out the "specific statutory authorization" part:
Quote
§ 1541. Purpose and policy
(a) Congressional declaration
It is the purpose of this chapter to fulfill the intent of the framers of the Constitution of the United States and insure that the collective judgment of both the Congress and the President will apply to the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, and to the continued use of such forces in hostilities or in such situations.
(b) Congressional legislative power under necessary and proper clause
Under article I, section 8, of the Constitution, it is specifically provided that the Congress shall have the power to make all laws necessary and proper for carrying into execution, not only its own powers but also all other powers vested by the Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any department or officer hereof.
(c) Presidential executive power as Commander-in-Chief; limitation
The constitutional powers of the President as Commander-in-Chief to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, are exercised only pursuant to
(1) a declaration of war,
(2) specific statutory authorization, or
(3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces.

Let's dig a little deeper into that section:
Quote
(2) from any treaty heretofore or hereafter ratified unless such treaty is implemente­d by legislatio­n specifical­ly authorizin­g the introducti­on of United States Armed Forces into hostilitie­s or into such situations and stating that it is intended to constitute specific statutory authorizat­ion within the meaning of this chapter.

Since the US Congress has ratified the UN Treaty that could be argued would give the President power to us the Armed Forces without a declaration of war or attack on the US.  It could also be argued that any UN mandate is not binding in this context.  I'm not a constitutional lawyer/scholar so I'm not sure, but thought you should see more of the War Powers Act before judging it. 
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« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2011, 09:51:18 PM »
That Wikipedia article is poorly written. "The War Powers Resolution is a United States Congress joint resolution providing that the President can send U.S. armed forces into action abroad only by authorization of Congress or if the United States is already under attack or serious threat."

That's true; however, if he doesn't comply with this, he has the power to keep them there for 60 days. Of course the area has to be hostile, which in this case it is.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 10:12:45 PM by PaperLuigi »
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ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2011, 10:04:09 PM »
Well, lord knows that's happened plenty of times in the past.
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2011, 10:19:24 PM »
Well, lord knows that's happened plenty of times in the past.

You're telling me. Congress hasn't officially declared war since WWII.
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CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2011, 10:50:06 PM »
Here's the whole law. It's pretty short and easy to understand (relatively), so everyone go read the whole thing.

§1541 (c) states "The constitutional powers of the President as Commander-in-Chief to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, are exercised only pursuant to
(1) a declaration of war,
(2) specific statutory authorization, or
(3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces."

The only circumstances under which the President may exercise his military powers are under a declaration of war OR with specific Congressional approval OR when we are in immediate and direct danger.

§1543 (a) and 1544 (b) (below), when read on their own, can seem to imply that the President can do anything without a declaration of war as long as he's done within 60 days; however, read in context with §1541, I don't see how it can mean that, regardless of what Wikipedia thinks.

"In the absence of a declaration of war, in any case in which United States Armed Forces are introduced—
(1) into hostilities or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances;
(2) into the territory, airspace or waters of a foreign nation, while equipped for combat, except for deployments which relate solely to supply, replacement, repair, or training of such forces; or
(3) in numbers which substantially enlarge United States Armed Forces equipped for combat already located in a foreign nation;
the President shall submit within 48 hours to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and to the President pro tempore of the Senate a report ...

"Within sixty calendar days after a report is submitted or is required to be submitted pursuant to section 1543 (a)(1) of this title, whichever is earlier, the President shall terminate any use of United States Armed Forces with respect to which such report was submitted (or required to be submitted), unless the Congress
(1) has declared war or has enacted a specific authorization for such use of United States Armed Forces,
(2) has extended by law such sixty-day period, or
(3) is physically unable to meet as a result of an armed attack upon the United States."
(§1543 (a) and 1544 (b))

"In the absence of a declaration of war" means that we're either in (2) or (3) under §1541 (c). The only way the President can exercise military powers without any form of Congressional approval is when we are directly threatened and there is no time for Congressional debate. Libya poses no direct threat to us, and there was plenty of time for Congress to discuss this — we waited two weeks for UN approval. And that, I think, is the most [darn]ing piece of this whole thing. Whether or not Obama is technically in violation of the letter of the law, he is undeniably violating the spirit. §1542 says "The President in every possible instance shall consult with Congress before introducing United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, and after every such introduction shall consult regularly with the Congress until United States Armed Forces are no longer engaged in hostilities or have been removed from such situations." We certainly could've had Congressional consultation and discussion and debate and even approval of this in the two weeks we were waiting on the UN.

[To address the Wikipedia summary you quoted: It's not saying you can go up to 60 days carte blanche without any Congressional approval, it's saying you need Congressional approval to go beyond 60 days — which does not necessarily imply that you don't need Congressional approval for the 60 days in the first place. The only situation in which the President can forego any Congressional approval is when we are under an immediate and direct threat, and even then, the President must seek Congressional approval to go beyond that sixty days (unless Congress is physically unable to meet due to the attack in question, in which case he can have at most another thirty).]

One final note: It cannot be argued that the War Powers Resolution "gives" the President the power to do anything. §1547 (d) says "Nothing in this chapter ... shall be construed as granting any authority to the President with respect to the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into situations wherein involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances which authority he would not have had in the absence of this chapter.



And five replies were posted while I was typing that. To PL: I still think your reading of the law is wrong in context. The entire text of the law must be read through §1541 (c). Also:
Of course the area has to be hostile, which in this case it is.
That's silly. If the only requirement to keep them there was that the area has to be hostile, there's no requirement at all. We're sending the military there; if it wasn't hostile before, it certainly will be once we start shooting people. Where are you getting that from the law?

To SB: Obama is by no means the first president to blatantly disregard this law, to be sure, but that doesn't make him less of a hypocrite.

To Luigison:

Since the US Congress has ratified the UN Treaty that could be argued would give the President power to us the Armed Forces without a declaration of war or attack on the US.  It could also be argued that any UN mandate is not binding in this context.  I'm not a constitutional lawyer/scholar so I'm not sure, but thought you should see more of the War Powers Act before judging it. 
(For those playing along at home, we're looking at §1547 (a) (2): "Authority to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into situations wherein involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances shall not be inferred ... from any treaty ... unless such treaty is implemented by legislation specifically authorizing the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into such situations and stating that it is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of this chapter."

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. Do you have a link to the full text of the treaty/mandate you're talking about? Is it an old general all-encompassing thing (in which case it couldn't fall under "specific statutory authorization"), or something specific to this situation? If it's specific to this situation and was ratified by Congress before military action started, there might be something there. However, the "unless such treaty is implemented by legislation specifically authorizing..." part sounds to me like it's saying that Congress still needs to specifically approve the military action beforehand; that all the same requirements still have to be met with or without a treaty.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 10:55:09 PM by CrossEyed7 »
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2011, 11:18:37 PM »
That's silly. If the only requirement to keep them there was that the area has to be hostile, there's no requirement at all. We're sending the military there; if it wasn't hostile before, it certainly will be once we start shooting people. Where are you getting that from the law?

Dude, the area was hostile before we sent troops there. And I got that from this:

"The constitutional powers of the President as Commander-in-Chief to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances..."
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CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2011, 11:48:04 PM »
Read the rest of that sentence.

"The constitutional powers of the President as Commander-in-Chief to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, are exercised only pursuant to
(1) a declaration of war,
(2) specific statutory authorization, or
(3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces."

The part you're quoting is not a sentence saying "The President has the power to send the military to hostile places," it's a part of a sentence -- a subject -- saying "The President's power to send the military to places and shoot people". And the predicate of the sentence is "is only valid in three situations." [note that "is clearly indicated by the circumstances" is part of the subject, not the predicate] And then it says what those situations are: Congressional declaration of war, specific Congressional approval of the specific military operation, or a national emergency following an attack on U.S. soil or U.S. troops.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 11:54:21 PM by CrossEyed7 »
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2011, 11:54:28 PM »
I can't watch the video ATM. What is this thread actually arguing about? All I see is people repeatedly quoting legal text.

« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2011, 12:06:55 AM »
No dude, what I'm saying is that the place necessarily has to be hostile for the president to send troops there. It was merely reiteration. I wasn't trying to make an argument out of it.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 12:08:53 AM by PaperLuigi »
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CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2011, 12:23:41 AM »
No dude, what I'm saying is that the place necessarily has to be hostile for the president to send troops there. It was merely reiteration. I wasn't trying to make an argument out of it.
I don't know if I'd say it's a necessity (sending troops into hostilities or into situations where hostilities will be imminent sounds like all it requires is that we go over there and shoot and get shot at), but as long as you're not arguing that it's the only necessity.

Whether or not the area already being hostile is a necessity, it is necessary that the situation fall under one of the three enumerated situations in 1541(c), which this does not, unless there's something to that UN treaty Luigison mentioned.

I can't watch the video ATM. What is this thread actually arguing about? All I see is people repeatedly quoting legal text.
During Bush's presidency, Biden said "I want to make it clear, and I've made it clear to the President, that if he takes this nation to war in Iran without Congressional approval, I will make it my business to impeach him. That's a fact. That is a fact. ... Iran is no immediate threat to the United States of America." An implied comparison is made to Obama's recent going to war without Congressional approval in Libya.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 06:34:04 AM by CrossEyed7 »
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2011, 01:00:48 AM »
This isn't war though. He can't declare war. Only Congress can. It may be true that he's sending troops over there without Congress's permission, however.

but as long as you're not arguing that it's not the only necessity.

Yes, that's basically what I was saying.
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CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2011, 06:37:32 AM »
It's not a declared war, but it is "going to war" as much as anything else has been in the last 65 years, and it's the same "going to war" that Biden was talking about back then.

And if he is sending troops there without Congress's approval, and we are not in a state of national emergency following an attack on US soil or US troops, then he is in direct violation of the very law you cited to support him.
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

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