Sonic The Hedgehog 4: Episode I

[Kimimaru]

I don't have this game yet, but I want to know if anyone here has played it yet and your opinions on the game if you have indeed played it. First off, I'd like to say that I'm very happy that they finally allowed you to play Super Sonic in normal levels again. Second, I've heard that the physics for this game are much worse than the Genesis games. Sonic supposedly stops instantly when you don't hold the D-Pad in any direction, and I've also heard that the Homing Attack breaks the game. Furthermore, many have said that the game isn't worth the $15 you chip out for it, mainly due to its length.

So, what does everyone think? Is Sonic 4 a worthy investment?

[The Chef]

It stinks. It ain't even worth 10 bucks. Sonic feels really heavy and can barely move in midair. If you let go of the d-pad he drops like a rock. The Homing Attack is practically the only way to get around fluidly. Using the roll or Spin Dash makes you move slower. Sonic's running has no speed cap (which makes this the exact opposite of the original trilogy, where running has a speed cap while rolling did not). You can easily walk out of a half-pipe if you get stuck. Sonic automatically uncurls when you go off a ramp. Every single level has pointless boosters and automatic spring chains. You can play any stage in any order you want. You can repeatedly restart the Special Stage whenever you want until you get the Chaos Emerald. The game only has four zones total. It feels almost as if they deliberately gimped Sonic's abilities to justify putting the Homing Attack in the game.

[Kimimaru]

Thanks! I probably won't get it in that case.

[Turtlekid1]

You can repeatedly restart the Special Stage whenever you want until you get the Chaos Emerald.

Frankly, I think this is a good idea.  Having such limited opportunities to enter Special Stages in the Genesis games made getting the Emeralds very frustrating.  Not an appreciated challenge - just frustrating.

The game only has four zones total.

Keep in mind that there will be two more sets of four zones.  They split the game into three episodes to make the download size manageable.

[CrossEyed7]

To be fair, it's four zones with three acts each, which works out to the same number of levels as Sonic 3 (six acts of two zones). But to also be fair, Sonic 3's levels were much bigger and more interesting and varied (and having more zones with fewer acts was a big part of that).

My main complaint with the game (apart from the horrendous physics and lackluster music) is that the zones are complete rehashes. There is nothing new in terms of settings. Casino Streets Zone looks exactly like a 2.5D Casino Night Zone. Mad Gear Zone looks exactly like a 2.5D version of Metropolis Zone. The final boss is the final boss from Sonic 2 (that's the pre-Super final boss; I haven't been buggered to get the seventh Emerald yet and don't know what that boss is). I don't think there's a single new badnik in the entire game. In Sonic Advance, the zones for the most part fit into the classic Sonic archetypes, but they all put a new spin on them or combined them or something.

Sonic Advance is Sonic 4 (other than not being able to play as Super Sonic in the levels). This thing is an example of what not to do when making dumbed-down 21st century reboots (like Star Trek 09 or New Super Mario Bros; both examples of how to do it right).

Wait and see if Episode 2 fixes the Spin Dash, does something original, and is under 1000 points (and has Tails and Knuckles (That's another thing -- Sonic Advance continued the tradition of adding a new character with a unique playstyle with each iteration, and did a better job of it than most people give it credit for)).

(I know I'm going on about Sonic Advance a lot, but it just completely baffles me how Dimps could get it so right back then and so wrong now. Why is it that the only time they can't make a game worthy of being called Sonic 4 is when that's what it's called? Stage fright?)

[The Chef]

(that's the pre-Super final boss; I haven't been buggered to get the seventh Emerald yet and don't know what that boss is).

There is no extra boss. :(

[Kimimaru]

Well, the physics are what I'm concerned about most. The physics engine in the Genesis games was magnificent, especially at that time, and I wouldn't want to play a Sonic game that has broken physics. Instead of getting this, I think I'll use my money on Donkey Kong Country Returns, which looks amazing (check out the official site)!

Frankly, I think this is a good idea.  Having such limited opportunities to enter Special Stages in the Genesis games made getting the Emeralds very frustrating.  Not an appreciated challenge - just frustrating.

I know where you're coming from, but the limited opportunities make it that much more rewarding once you get all of them. It was very annoying in the original Sonic the Hedgehog because the Special Stages are at the ends of Acts 1 and 2 of every zone, but the other two games give you many more chances to earn the emeralds. In Sonic 2, you can be Super Sonic as early as Emerald Hill Zone Act 2, and in S3&K, you can be Super Sonic as early as Hydrocity Zone Act 2 and Hyper Sonic as early as Mushroom Hill Zone Act 2. Even if you miss some of the Special Stages in those zones, you have plenty of other opportunities to get them.

[Turtlekid1]

I really sucked at the special stages in Sonic 2, so I really didn't have much of a margin for error.  I didn't get the seventh emerald until Oil Ocean Zone.

The special stages need to be either much easier or repeatable if they're going to be accessible and fun.  Rather than detract from the challenge itself, I would take away the frustrating element of the mechanic.

[Chupperson Weird]

You don't know what hard games are, apparently.

[Kimimaru]

I agree that Sonic 2's special stages were frustrating, and to a certain extent unfair, but I thought Sonic 3 & Knuckles' stages were fantastic. The idea of those games is to play through them again if you fail to get all of the Chaos Emeralds the first time around; it increases the replay value. You'll also feel good about yourself afterwards (although this doesn't apply to me anymore since I've beaten them so many times).

[WarpRattler]

A bit of frustration is good. The idea is that you need to get better, rather than be able to blow through stuff on the first try.

In other words, here's Turtlekid's problem:

accessible

[Chupperson Weird]

Yes. Otherwise there's no incentive, no emotional drive to show the game who's boss, as it were. The immense satisfaction of finally beating something is much more desirable than the void of emotion when you are simply allowed to win.

[Turtlekid1]

A bit of frustration is good. The idea is that you need to get better, rather than be able to blow through stuff on the first try.

No, frustration is never good.  Challenge and difficulty are good.  When they come at the expense of fun, I tend to put down the game.  Because, y'know, I play video games for fun.

I agree that Sonic 2's special stages were frustrating, and to a certain extent unfair, but I thought Sonic 3 & Knuckles' stages were fantastic. The idea of those games is to play through them again if you fail to get all of the Chaos Emeralds the first time around; it increases the replay value. You'll also feel good about yourself afterwards (although this doesn't apply to me anymore since I've beaten them so many times).

S3&K had highly superior special stages.

[WarpRattler]

"Challenge" and "difficulty" are brought about by frustration.
Frustration and fun are not mutually exclusive.
Clearly we have differing definitions of "fun," because I don't think easy-mode games are very fun.

[Turtlekid1]

frustrating - discouraging by hindering
discouraging - depriving of confidence or hope or enthusiasm and hence often deterring action; "where never is heard a discouraging word

Sounds pretty unfun to me.

Also, it's the other way around.  Too much challenge or difficulty is what brings about frustration.

Whether a game is easy or hard is not a litmus test for whether it's fun.

[Mr. Wiggles]

I don't know about you, but discouraging aspects of a game are what drive me the most to come back and beat it. Yeah, its sucks to lose multiple times, but when you finally conquer that obstacle there really is no greater feeling in the world.

I figured someone who likes to complete a game 100% would understand that.

[WarpRattler]

a deep chronic sense or state of insecurity and dissatisfaction arising from unresolved problems or unfulfilled needs

"Unresolved problems" sounds to me like I've got a pain of a boss to defeat. Let's keep practicing and kick some ass.

Any frustration generated while playing a game should be at your own inability, not at the game*, and that's what leads to you defining a section as challenging or difficult, while another, more skilled player might not find it to be a problem. Which brings us back to the bit that invalidates the original argument:

I really sucked at the special stages in Sonic 2

The problem is with the player, not the game. (My feelings on the Genesis Sonic games notwithstanding.)

*Disregarding the illogical notion of playing bad games or games so easy they're boring. And of course all of this only considers games that actually rely on player skill.

[CrossEyed7]

It's interesting how much of an overlap there is between the people who beat up on Turtlekid on VGC for having different (and therefore incorrect and immoral) opinions than themselves and the people who beat up on Turtlekid on NatDT for being overly dogmatic and closed-minded to other people's viewpoints.

[Chupperson Weird]

The irony is not lost on me, however I still think his ideas on rewarding game design are exactly backwards. Same way I feel about people who throw their controllers.

[CrossEyed7]

My point is, preference claims like "Blue is a pretty color" or "I didn't enjoy Portal" are a different category than truth claims like "The sky is blue" or "Ice cream cures cancer". Even if TK's political/religious/philosophical beliefs are wrong, it still makes more logical sense to say "No! The sky is never blue!" than to say "No! You did enjoy Portal!"

People can disagree and argue over opinions, but it can get way out of hand around here with everyone piling on and acting like TK is a horrible person for not having the same tastes as them. Can't we just agree that different people like different things, and that's okay?

[Turtlekid1]

What's happening here, as with the Portal thing, is that I'm saying something against one thing, and people are assuming that I'm automatically okay with the other end of the spectrum.

Fact is, I don't prefer to play too-easy games.  In games with selectable difficulties, I start on the highest available difficulty (the issue I have with games sometimes making you unlock higher difficulties is one for another argument).  I also don't like too-hard games.  I doubt I'll ever even attempt Kaizo Mario World or I Wanna Be The Guy.  Again, the only real test I have for my continued playing a game is "Am I enjoying myself?"  If I find myself answering "no" repeatedly, then I am obviously not having fun with the game, so why would I be playing the game?

I don't know about you, but discouraging aspects of a game are what drive me the most to come back and beat it. Yeah, its sucks to lose multiple times, but when you finally conquer that obstacle there really is no greater feeling in the world.

Man, I dunno.  When I beat Metroid Prime 2 and Prime 3 on Hypermode, for example, the feeling wasn't good so much as "Well, that sucked.  Never doing that again."  If a game is too hard, even if I end up beating it, I just feel drained.

So, yeah.  While Super Mario Galaxy was a bit too easy for my taste, it was also quite enjoyable, and I'd still rather play that than Echoes on Hypermode.  Again, there is not necessarily a correlation between difficulty and fun.

It's interesting how much of an overlap there is between the people who beat up on Turtlekid on VGC for having different (and therefore incorrect and immoral) opinions than themselves and the people who beat up on Turtlekid on NatDT for being overly dogmatic and closed-minded to other people's viewpoints.

Haha, yeah, I first noticed that during the "Why You JRPG Lovers Suck" incident.

[WarpRattler]

I had a thing written up and ready to post, but fell asleep without posting it. Oh well.

I was going to mention that the change made to special stages in Sonic 4 would have been one better solved with difficulty settings rather than making something that's too hard for a few people suddenly become too easy for most people.

I was going to mention that the main reason to jump on Turtlekid regarding his complaints about Portal was the fact that his complaints actually had nothing to do with the game and were all faults of his own (not liking KBAM, having an ancient computer). Just like his complaints about the Sonic 2 special stages relate to his own lack of skill rather than the game being too difficult or poorly-designed.

To an extent, Turtlekid is right about games that are too hard; there is such a thing as "unfair" or artificial difficulty, and games created with the aim of presenting such typically aren't fun. Both of his examples show exactly this - Kaizo Mario World and I Wanna Be The Guy are designed solely with masochists in mind. But these games are very extreme examples for that reason. Most "hard" games are designed such that they can still be finished by a normal player with enough practice. And when that final victory occurs, it really is great; hopefully you're playing a good game and are happy about your accomplishment rather than being happy it's over.

[The Chef]

To get back on the subject, I don't like the Sonic 2 Special Stages either.

[CrossEyed7]

I kinda like them, but that's probably nostalgia talking (2 was my first Sonic). I think 3&K got the best balance of difficulty and doability and fast-pacedness and skill. 1's were a bit random and annoying, and the format was much better suited for fun, unimportant bonus stages in K. 2's were alright, but did feel a bit unfair and frustrating at times with all those bombs.

Advance 1's special stages were way too frustrating. Advance 2's I only ever got to once, if even, and I've never gotten to an Advance 3 special stage. 4's are good, if unoriginal. They're like Wolf in Brawl -- something new would have been nice, but for something that's just a minor tweak on what we had before, it's a very good tweak.