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Author Topic: Why Pokémon Sucks (And What Won't Be Done To Fix It)  (Read 64126 times)

WarpRattler

  • Paid by the word
« Reply #75 on: July 21, 2010, 12:05:11 PM »
And again, Weegee, there's no running away when Arena Trap or Shadow Tag (or any potential new ability with the same effect) is involved.

And Turtlekid, it just plain doesn't work that way. It doesn't work that way now when your level 100 Pokémon would have to use 1 PP from some attack to defeat a level 2 Starly, and there's no reason to change it to work that way when one other JRPG works that way. This is what Black Mage was talking about with shoehorning features in, except that this isn't a feature that works with the Pokémon style in any way.

As it is now, the only move in main-series Pokémon games that doesn't use PP also damages the user. And you sure as hell don't want Struggle as an auto-attack.

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #76 on: July 21, 2010, 12:24:22 PM »
one other JRPG works that way
Paper Mario: TTYD?
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #77 on: July 21, 2010, 11:11:51 PM »
The reason to change it is because the way it works now is tedious and illogical. Automatically selecting a move wouldn't speed things up in the slightest, and making up a new non-typed non-PP move would unnecessarily complicate things... and still wouldn't speed things up in the slightest.

It doesn't work that way now when your level 100 Pokémon would have to use 1 PP from some attack to defeat a level 2 Starly, and there's no reason to change it to work that way when one other JRPG works that way.
A level 100 Pokémon shouldn't have to use 1 PP from an attack to defeat a level 2 Starly. At that level, he should be able to kill it by looking at it funny.

Since they should be whittling down the HMs anyway, have one of the gym leaders give you something that lets you switch on and off a mode where if you encounter a Pokémon that your Pokémon is ridiculously stronger than and couldn't possibly not defeat, you don't have to bother with going through the battle animation at all, don't use any PP, and you just have a little notification pop up that says you killed something and got the experience (get some use out of the bottom screen). Then if you need to go back and capture one of those, you can either switch to a weaker Pokémon or just switch the mode off. Or maybe a mode where it's assumed that you'll try to run away from any non-legendary encounters, and then when you trigger an encounter, you'll only go into battle if running away wouldn't have been successful the first time. Either (or both) of those would be a much less tedious alternative to running away, mashing the same attack, or buying hundreds of Repels.
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

WarpRattler

  • Paid by the word
« Reply #78 on: July 22, 2010, 02:29:47 AM »
Tedious and illogical? It fits perfectly narratively, even if that means the gameplay suffers. You seem to be forgetting a key thing:

YOU DO NOT PLAY AS THE POKÉMON.

Your Pokémon isn't the one being attacked by wild Pokémon; you are. Your Pokémon is a tool to defend you - easily comparable to a gun. And like it or not, a gun can't fire itself...

A level 100 Pokémon shouldn't have to use 1 PP from an attack to defeat a level 2 Starly.
...and a gun still uses bullets.

I'd love the games to be made faster just as much as the next guy, but wanting to throw away a decade and a half of narrative to do so is just silly.

The bit with an item that automatically attempts running away could be useful - but you could easily just equip your lead Pokémon with a Cleanse Tag. Besides, the point is to make battles faster, not avoid them entirely.

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #79 on: July 22, 2010, 03:47:44 AM »
Maybe that's the point for you, but I'd sooner just outright remove battles that are just an utter waste of time than make negligible speed improvements to them. When I'm walking around with my level 60 Ho-Oh, I shouldn't have to spend thirty seconds and one of five uses of Sacred Fire every two steps to kill a level 2 Rattata that won't even give me a pixel of EXP. I mean, if you want stuff that fits the narrative, why would a level 2 Rattata even try to attack a level 60 Ho-Oh in the first place (or, if you want to get technical, attack a trainer who's being followed by a level 60 Ho-Oh)?

And like it or not, a gun can't fire itself...
...and a gun still uses bullets.
When your enemy is so weak and slow and your gun is so big that you could literally kill them by just physically hitting them with the gun, you shouldn't have to waste a bullet on them.

It fits perfectly narratively, even if that means the gameplay suffers.
That's not the way video games should be made, and it's certainly not the Nintendo way.

Making your character have to eat and poop would fit the narrative too. It would also make the game suck.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 03:50:38 AM by CrossEyed7 »
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

WarpRattler

  • Paid by the word
« Reply #80 on: July 22, 2010, 06:51:05 AM »
When your enemy is so weak and slow and your gun is so big that you could literally kill them by just physically hitting them with the gun, you shouldn't have to waste a bullet on them.
You say this as if the trainer who has a level 60 Ho-oh is somehow as big and muscular as a Machamp, when they're probably still just as physically weak as they were the day they started their journey. Once more, the trainer is the one being attacked, not the Pokémon, so determining how weak a Pokémon is based on the trainer's lead Pokémon is silly.

Think of it this way: you might have a level 100 Pokémon, but that's not going to do you a [darn] bit of good when that level ten Ekans has caught you off-guard and bitten your leg. You might be able to throw your Pokéball as you slowly succumb to poison.

Making your character have to eat and poop
(I've been playing JRPGs where you do in fact do these things. They don't suffer for it one bit. These games also have regular turn-based JRPG battles that play out at ungodly speeds.)

That's not the way video games should be made, and it's certainly not the Nintendo way.
Clearly it is the way Pokémon games are made, given that the series has been running fifteen years and has worked that way the entire time.

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #81 on: July 22, 2010, 09:51:12 AM »
You say this as if the trainer who has a level 60 Ho-oh is somehow as big and muscular as a Machamp, when they're probably still just as physically weak as they were the day they started their journey. Once more, the trainer is the one being attacked, not the Pokémon, so determining how weak a Pokémon is based on the trainer's lead Pokémon is silly.
No, I'm saying it as if this is HG/SS, where your lead Pokémon is walking directly behind you and would be clearly visible to the Pokémon attacking you. Most Pokémon seem to have a pretty decent intelligence, and heck, even an antelope would be smart enough to know not to attack a human who's got a lion following right behind them. The antelope wouldn't say "Well, it'll be okay; I'm just attacking the human, not the lion, so I won't be in any danger." The antelope would say "Holy crap, if I attack that human, I will be less than five feet away from a lion."

Clearly it is the way Pokémon games are made, given that the series has been running fifteen years and has worked that way the entire time.
And what, now you like the way things have been done for the last fifteen years? Your whole conceit in this topic was that the way the games have been made for the last fifteen years sucks and requires major changes. Your very first point was that they're too slow. Then someone else comes up with an idea that would actually speed things up, and suddenly the way the games have been made for the last fifteen years is sacrosanct?

Or are you just trying to win some territory in the argument by factually disproving one of my points, regardless of how it affects your overall argument? Because the main series games aren't made by Nintendo. Game Freak is a second party (and they were apparently a third party as recently as 1999).

And to actually address the point, that's not the way the games have been made. They don't sacrifice gameplay for narrative. If they did, you could never use a Magcargo, because your character and everything around them would burst into flames from being within a few feet of something that's several times hotter than the surface of the sun. You couldn't send a fish into battle unless you were underwater. Only one person in the world (the real world) would be able to catch Arceus on their copy of the game. Everyone would be dead and no economies would exist, since the only way to get to many towns requires going through grass where Pokémon so strong that they can give a level 40 team a run for its money lay in wait.



Also this:
There are thirty-five legendaries in all, almost all of which can now be caught through regular gameplay throughout the five fourth-gen games (including some as part of the main storyline). Shouldn't legendaries be, y'know, legendary? In a way other than stats?
By that logic -- you shouldn't be able to do "legendary" stuff in "regular gameplay" -- 99% of people should never be allowed to beat any JRPG, and especially not the bonus bosses, regardless of how much they level up, because the odds against everything working out and you actually saving the world are astronomical in the narrative. Although I have a feeling you'd actually support that.

If Pokémon were an MMO, you'd have a point, but so long as they're considered to primarily be single-player JRPGs (and you said that you don't consider the multiplayer modes of Pokémon worthy of any consideration), everyone should be able to do everything in the game.

Oh, and this:
there's no reason to change it to work that way when one other JRPG works that way.
One other JRPG that was made by Creatures (back when they were Ape). Just sayin'.

(Not to mention that Paper Mario does it too.)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 11:30:03 AM by CrossEyed7 »
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

WarpRattler

  • Paid by the word
« Reply #82 on: July 22, 2010, 07:42:41 PM »
No, I'm saying it as if this is HG/SS,
where it still works the same way.

Your very first point was that they're too slow. Then someone else comes up with an idea that would actually speed things up, and suddenly the way the games have been made for the last fifteen years is sacrosanct?
My ideas hinged on changing the gameplay, not removing it entirely.

By that logic -- you shouldn't be able to do "legendary" stuff in "regular gameplay" -- 99% of people should never be allowed to beat any JRPG, and especially not the bonus bosses, regardless of how much they level up, because the odds against everything working out and you actually saving the world are astronomical in the narrative. Although I have a feeling you'd actually support that.
I support games requiring effort (preferably the sort that improves a player's ability) to finish. I do not support games being unwinnable.

And that argument is completely silly anyway. I was referring to how having one out of every fourteen Pokémon be designated "legendary" cheapens the idea, particularly when it's not only possible but downright easy to catch the majority of them within a single instance.

And if you read further within that post and in posts down the page, you'll see that I didn't say I didn't want people to be unable to do stuff. Quite the opposite - I proposed making it possible to catch every legendary Pokémon on a single copy of the game, though it would take a good amount of playtime to do so.

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #83 on: July 22, 2010, 07:59:21 PM »
where it still works the same way.
...But it shouldn't, which is my point.

My ideas hinged on changing the gameplay, not removing it entirely.
I'm not saying all battles should be removed. I'm just saying that when you've been playing for over a hundred hours and you're walking around with your team of ubers, it would be nice if you were no longer required to take time out to kill a Zigzagoon every ten seconds.
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

Black Mage

  • HP 1018 MP 685
« Reply #84 on: July 22, 2010, 11:36:44 PM »
I'm not saying all battles should be removed. I'm just saying that when you've been playing for over a hundred hours and you're walking around with your team of ubers, it would be nice if you were no longer required to take time out to kill a Zigzagoon every ten seconds.

What are your feelings on repels?

Trainman

  • Bob-Omg
« Reply #85 on: July 23, 2010, 01:30:51 AM »
                                   

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Where the hell is one of these when you need them?
Formerly quite reasonable.

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #86 on: July 23, 2010, 07:42:04 AM »
Repels are a nice gesture, but 100 steps is really short. I think a Repel should last long enough that you can actually tell you're using a Repel. Going 100 steps without a battle just from luck, without a Repel, isn't all that uncommon.

And the price of Max Repel is just friggin' ridiculous.
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

Glorb

  • Banned
« Reply #87 on: July 23, 2010, 11:02:20 AM »
Here's what Pokemon needs.

Te ability to fight Pokemans yourself, mano a mano, like a true man. And if you go the whole game without using your Pokemon to fight at all even once, you get an Achievement worth 1,000 Gamer Points.
every

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #88 on: July 23, 2010, 04:35:01 PM »
Glorb's biting sarcasm aside, I personally think the Trainer should be able to do more than just cart the Pokémon around and bark orders at them. You'd think they'd be able to defend themselves against wild Pokémon even if all of their own are KO'd. One idea I had was to allow the Trainer to throw bait and rocks like in the Safari Zone if a wild Pokémon attacks you and you're defenseless. Other ideas included the elimination of HMs and instead give the Trainer tools, like a flashlight for dark caves.

ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #89 on: July 23, 2010, 05:49:45 PM »
I just want to know why having all your Pokemon pass out causes you to pass out.
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

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