Fungi Forums
Video Games => Video Game Chat => Topic started by: Turtlekid1 on May 20, 2009, 07:29:14 AM
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I've seen several discussions touch on the subject before, but to my knowledge, there has been no topic created for the discussion of the existence (or nonexistence) of tiers. Specifically tiers in Super Smash Bros. Brawl.
What do you guys think?
I'm of the personal opinion that yes, tiers do exist. Before anyone jumps down my throat, let me say that from personal experience and a crapload of Brawls with various matchups, I did notice that I had a tendency to do better with, say, Snake than Lucas (in case you didn't know, Snake is the second highest-ranking character on the tier-list, while Lucas is of middling tier, if I remember correctly). That was just an example. In general, I do much better with higher-tier characters, such as Falco, Meta Knight, and Snake.
What I don't believe is that tiers in themselves decide the outcome of a match. It may be cliche, but:
Skill > Tier. In fact, Skill >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tier.
I have seen a person on Smash Boards (an extremely pro-tier, competetively minded site) say that those who make the above statement do not understand tiers. However, I like to think the concept has not eluded me. Rather, you might say that this person and people like him do not understand skill.
While I admittedly do better with higher-tiers, I've still won many a match against a high-tier character as Captain Falcon or Ganondorf (the the two lowest-tier characters). This leads me to believe that tiers simply do not hold as much weight as some suggest they do.
How about you?
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A level-9 Captain Falcon can beat a level-9 Meta Knight on Final Destination, itemless. So skill must be a major factor.
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Tiers are absolutely not important in Brawl because none of the pr0s play it.
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Not as much as Melee, but there are Brawl tournaments, are there not?
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Tiers do exist and there are "pros" that play Brawl.
Tiers have nothing to do with CPUs.
A skilled player can win against a high tier character with a low tier character.
I've played on the competitive level, more-so in Melee than in Brawl, and I can say with experience that the company is not all that great. In my opinion, the competitive Smash Brothers community is honestly one of the worst in regards to the character of the players out there. Maybe not the level of MvC2, but pretty close.
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Character tiers, to me, are the dumbest thing ever, though that's because I view SSB as quicky party games. It amuses me very much when I hear people go through the the "Fox only, no items, Final Destination" spiel and be absolutely serious about it.
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Tiers exist, but I don't really give a [darn]. I just play to play.
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I thought tiers were something people made up. Can you really say they "exist"?
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The term "tier" is made up, yes, but the concept it defines is not.
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Basically...if the two best players in the world were using Captain Falcon and Snake, the Snake player would win.
Skill plays a factor in all matches EXCEPT when two people of equal skill are playing against each other. That's...basically what the concept of tiers defines.
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They don't exist.
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Is this title supposed to be mock Latin or really bad grammar?
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Skill plays a factor in all matches EXCEPT when two people of equal skill are playing against each other. That's...basically what the concept of tiers defines.
But really, how can that be said? The Brawl characters are different enough that you'd just as easily be trying to say for sure that a person grocery shopping is being just as productive as a person mowing a lawn. So different.
And when if gets down to it, tiers are pointless. They don't dictate every matchup listed as they are. "Equally skilled" players of Meta Knight and Captain Falcon may come out with Falcon the victor if Captain Falcon is the "better" of that matchup. Tiers just count up the matchups in which the character is "superior."
But for Meta Knight it really revolves around Meta Knight revolving around in the whorenado.
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Is this title supposed to be mock Latin or really bad grammar?
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tires_don_exits
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Spelling incorrectly deliberately is not cool.
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Spelling incorrectly deliberately is not cool.
Tell that to the rest of the Internet.
Anyway, I don't believe that tiers exist.
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http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tires_don_exits
Boy, that's sad.
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But really, how can that be said? The Brawl characters are different enough that you'd just as easily be trying to say for sure that a person grocery shopping is being just as productive as a person mowing a lawn. So different.
Which is why tiers are as valid as they are; the characters being so different from each other, it stands to reason that some characters have inherent traits that give them advantages against some and disadvantages against others. In my opinion, the best argument for tiers is that it's impossible to balance 35 completely different characters such that there are none of the aforementioned advantages.
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It is my experience that tires, in all observable habitats, have never donned exits. It is very hard to wear a door.
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They don't exist.
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I'm having trouble understanding the concept of tiers, so I can't really say whether or not they exist.
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Spelling incorrectly deliberately is not cool.
uncorrictly
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Tiers do exist, but skill is way more important than tiers though.
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I've never used tier lists. They are meaningless to me I don't see how a list of how characters are currently doing helps anyone.
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I feel special.
No one is going to believe me, but I was the one who started this whole conspiracy :p
Gamefaqs was full of these people building these useless tier lists so I decided to step in and ruin it by making a thread named "There is no such thing as tiers." Here it is:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=43474943
Since then, I continued pushing the crap and soon enough, even more people started spreading the rumor around and I couldn't be happier.
It's just like with that whole EV training system nonsense on Pokemon. Just play the game folks, don't kill your brain building tier lists and making your Pokemon the absolute best. It makes you very nerdy and un-articulate.
More "tiers don't exist" threads.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/search.php?search=tiers+don%27t+exist&board=928518
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PICS OR IT DIDNT HAPPEN
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I... proved it...
Look at the date of the thread I posted. June 08. I dare you to find an earlier post suggesting tiers don't exist.
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Yeah, no.
People have been claiming tiers "don't exist" since Melee, and I can only assume since the original as there is a tier list for that as well.
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What Black Mage said. There's a tier list for the original too and people tried to disprove it. Maybe not en masse, but still.
The original tier list looks like this:
1. Pikachu
2. Kirby
3. Ness
4. Fox
5. Captain Falcon
6. Jigglypuff
7. Mario
8. Yoshi
9. Donkey Kong
10. Luigi
11. Samus
12. Link
Also, do you ever stop complaining about Wario Ware Wario? That tier list topic had nothing to do with Wario Ware Wario and YOU STILL complained about him.
People who say tiers don't exist have never played at the competitive level against players who devote their entire day to improving their game. Sorry, that's the way it is.
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If it makes you feel better, I hate Donkey Konga even more. I just haven't been open about it yet for some reason. And if you think that was bad, look here.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=45278878
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No, that doesn't make me feel better at all.
Seriously, what's your problem with Wario Ware? What don't you like about it? Twisted! is said to be the greatest Game Boy Advance game in existence.
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Nothing was wrong with Wario, a makeover was not needed. Same with Donkey Kong.
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Twisted! is said to be the greatest Game Boy Advance game in existence.
...By who?? Whoever they were, I'm assuming they lived in a dimension where Metroids Fusion and Zero Mission, the Super Mario Advances, and Karnaaj Rally's boxart didn't exist.
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IGN said that, but they kind of suck. Still, you can't argue that it's not a great game.
Here's the link to their list of greatest GBA games ever: http://gameboy.ign.com/articles/772/772284p1.html
Nothing was wrong with Wario
So...you have a problem with Wario Ware Wario but not the game?
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When does anyone who hates WarioWare hate it for any other reason?
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I know, right? I myself like Classic Wario better but Wario Ware is an amazing game.
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I honestly like the Ware outfit better, but that's just personal preference. Anyway, I don't think the WarioWare games would work with anyone BUT Wario as the host.
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On the topic of this topic, the tier list for Brawl (pr0s play Brawl? What?) has changed. I guess enough people with sympathy for Captain Falcon played as him enough and it gave him a workout and he got stronger!!!! :B
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Nothing was wrong with Wario, a makeover was not needed. Same with Donkey Kong.
Makeover my arse. He's just wearing a different outfit. You're a fool.
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On the topic of this topic, the tier list for Brawl (pr0s play Brawl? What?) has changed. I guess enough people with sympathy for Captain Falcon played as him enough and it gave him a workout and he got stronger!!!! :B
Seriously? What tier is he he in now?
EDIT: I saw the new list. This is just peachy; now people will accuse me of using Meta Knight, Snake, Falco AND Dedede because they're top-tier, as opposed to just Meta Knight like before.
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Wario is number 3. That's just awesome.
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Tiers don't exist. If they do, why do they shift like that?
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The tier list is to show how characters actually rank in tournaments. It's kind of a vicious cycle, because only high-tier characters, like Snake (or characters that "counter" high-tier characters, like Wario -> Snake) are ever picked by players, making the tier list more or less solid. Should a low-tier character gain a few skilled players, he'll climb the ladder a few rungs because that character is shown to do better in tournaments for that season/time frame/whatever (like Pikachu, who I notice is now in the A-tier).
To sum that all up, the tier list is not completely arbitrary.
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But to begin with, you have no reason to care about tiers unless you do master all the nutzo techniques with fancy names.
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Or unless you fight players that do.
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In which case you're probably screwed regardless. Unless you're also one of them, in which case go ahead and worry about which character has one fewer lag frame in his downward aerial.
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I dunno, I don't see Fifth use many "advanced techniques" (at least, not many I notice or am familiar with), and he consistently beats me every time we Brawl.
So I was messing around with Wario the other day to see what's so great about him that he should be put in the S tier.
I gotta say, certain aspects of the character, like his forward-smash and recovery, are really broken. His aerials, especially down and forward, are great. He's also fairly heavy without sacrificing a lot of speed, like Bowser and Ike. But all of this pales in comparison to his FREAKING AWESOME BIKE.
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I didn't say you can only be defeated by someone who does. Why are you caring about tiers? You use Meta Knight, but you get whupped by a Yoshi user frequently? One who doesn't use advanced techniques seen at world-level tournaments?
Most everything I've got to say about tiers and whether or not any particular person should care about them:
You're not at the pro level. You're a casual player like me. You use Meta Knight because you like him, I know--and that is beyond okay with me. But since he is at the top of Brawl's tier list I'll use him as an example. Hypothetically, he could be the worst character in the game if you don't take advanced techniques into account, if his smashes and specials were bad enough. He could be a dead man walking in any match with items or more than two players. I know he has some broken moves anyone can use, but he has flaws, some of which only come into play with items and multiple foes. His Final Smash isn't the best, either, being pretty easy to dodge (as many are). Meanwhile, last-place Ganondorf has a great Final Smash that has a huge range and death power.
But see, that's not what the tier list looks at. Fox wasn't at the top of Melee's for his smashes or specials alone, but for his reflector and wavedashing and L-canceling and everything all put together. You don't see a lot of that in casual matches, do you? So for people like us, his placement at the top is irrelevant! Even if you're in a one-on-one no-items legal-stage match and you're at the same skill level as your opponent, the typical matchup could be meaningless because the aforementioned skill level doesn't bother with much more than reflexes and timing of attacks.
only high-tier characters, like Snake (or characters that "counter" high-tier characters, like Wario -> Snake) are ever picked by players
Untrue. Regardless of whether pros choose a favorite based on their moveset or who the character is, they play as their favorites. The tier list changes when players of lower-tiered characters learn more about using them effectively and their unique techniques become more widely used, aiding their results in tournaments, and bumping them up. It happened for the Ice Climbers in Melee.
People who obey the tier list are typically not really pros, just trying to impress you by not using characters who suck (like all your favorites, Sam, they all suck), not playing on any stage but Final Destination (which despite information I didn't read is unanimously fair and the only tournament-legal stage), and never playing with items (because even four-player party-style battles MUST be tests of skill. And not skill with item usage). I don't know why they do that. Being a total jerk doesn't impress me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against tournament-style play--but I wish people would at least do it right and not treat players who play under rules designed for entertainment like garbage.
Tier lists kind of interest me, though they don't affect my game at all. My favorite characters (chosen for who they are outside of SSB) are scattered all over it. I want to see multiple tier lists for Brawl arise. One for the game unaltered, one for Brawl+ (formerly known as Melee 2.0, but it has had honorable changes made such as buffing lower-tiered characters in a never-ending attempt to balance the game. Perhaps I'll look into getting that), one taking all of Red's Pokémon as individuals as well as Red as he normally is (there are codes that let you play as one alone like in Classic Mode and I like 'em), stuff like that.
Just to remind you, I'm not claiming to be a pro. I've just done my homework and understand how the tiers work. It's not an attempt to steer people away from Link and Ganondorf, and if you look at it this way, it's not even a statement of who is better. It's a table of statistics of tournament results. The most logical reason to care about such data is if you'd be proud to main characters who are renowned to perform well (inversely, if your main is ranked low and you wish to improve their performance at the top) or you prefer to be stealthily good with a lower-tier character to throw guards off.
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I don't disagree with anything you just said.
Also, multiple tier lists is a good idea.