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Author Topic: Pokemon Topic  (Read 369091 times)

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #615 on: August 14, 2010, 07:39:22 AM »
KO'd legendaries respawning just further cheapens the idea of them being "legendary." I still think the game needs to just autosave on legendary battles.
If this ever happens, then a new capture system needs to be adopted - one that's not based on luck.  Because quite frankly, having only one chance at a luck-based encounter is about as artificial as difficulty can get.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #616 on: August 14, 2010, 07:39:53 AM »
Well, shoot, I know that the first few generations of the game had notices on the back reminding people that basic reading skills were necessary to enjoy it, but the point is that they've gone and dumbed down some pretty iconic traits of the series.
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

Kimimaru

  • Max Stats
« Reply #617 on: August 14, 2010, 10:10:03 AM »
Thing is, Kimimaru, as pointed out earlier in this thread, the multiplayer "scene" for Pokémon is already overrun by players using Pokésav to save the trouble of actually training their monsters (as well as players who just use simulators rather than actually having to train Pokémon). So for the most part, TMs being unlimited doesn't affect those people at all.

That's almost like saying that Nintendo should change the Mario Kart series to always make you get Starmen because people hack on it. Game companies shouldn't change the gameplay for everyone else because others decide to play dishonestly.

And as for the limited quantitative nature of certain TMs (which is what I was referring to), it was already possible to, for example, play through a second copy of the game long enough to get all your one-of-a-kind TMs, then attach them to Pokémon and trade them over to your real game. This just saves thirty hours or so per unique TM.

I'm aware that this was possible. It just goes to show that, before unlimited TMs, you had to be extremely dedicated if you wanted to make the best team you can.

I disagree with the argument about Pokémon, a game that many of us started playing when we were seven or eight years old - practically wee babes! - being made casual-friendly. It was always that way.

I agree with this, but it doesn't mean that they should make it even more casual-friendly. In a lot of Nintendo games, there are plenty of things that separate the casual players from the hardcore players (for example, Wavedashing in Super Smash Bros. Melee). In Pokemon's case, it's EVs, IVs, and various move combinations. If everyone has unlimited access to the best moves, then great move combinations in previous games won't be glorified as much because anyone can duplicate that moveset without having to worry about losing the TMs.
The Mario series is the best! It has every genre in video games but RTS'! It also has a plumber who does different roles, a princess, and a lot of odd creatures who don't seem to poop!

« Reply #618 on: August 14, 2010, 11:08:39 AM »
Reusable TMs may be good for competitive play, but they'll keep the player from being judicious with them.

As bad as respawning legendaries are, auto-saving after you kill them is an even worse idea. In Emerald, catching Regirock took about seven attempts. Each time I would paralyze him, bring his health to critical levels and chuck about 40 Ultra Balls at him before he Struggled himself to death. Should I have been permanently barred from obtaining Regirock for having [dukar]ty luck?
YYur  waYur n beYur you Yur plusYur instYur an Yur Yur whaYur

WarpRattler

  • Paid by the word
« Reply #619 on: August 14, 2010, 11:18:04 AM »
Game companies shouldn't change the gameplay for everyone else because others decide to play dishonestly.
I agree, but this isn't like Mario Kart, where you basically only have to worry about that sort of thing when playing with random players (a bad idea in many online multiplayer games for one reason or another; in Nintendo's online stuff, the reason is rampant cheating). In Pokémon, where the vast majority of serious players play this way, putting everyone else (the players who don't, won't, or can't) on an even playing field is a good thing.

I'm aware that this was possible. It just goes to show that, before unlimited TMs, you had to be extremely dedicated if you wanted to make the best team you can.
The method I described is incredibly inconvenient at best and an absolute slog at worst - neither of which are things you should want in a game. It's the wrong sort of dedication.

Wavedashing in Super Smash Bros. Melee
Wavedashing is a bad example because it's abuse of a glitch. There's a cloning glitch in D/P - does abuse of that make you "hardcore"?

In Pokemon's case, it's EVs, IVs, and various move combinations.
Agreed, but...
If everyone has unlimited access to the best moves, then great move combinations in previous games won't be glorified as much because anyone can duplicate that moveset without having to worry about losing the TMs.
Again, many "hardcore" players just hack Pokémon, or use simulators like Shoddy Battle. Those players already aren't affected by the limited nature of TMs, so all this does is put everyone on the same level.



Should I have been permanently barred from obtaining Regirock for having [dukar]ty luck?
No, but only because of the rules you were playing under in your example. I'd argue that if auto-saving after legendary battles was implemented (or, really, even if it wasn't), legendaries in the field would also need to be redesigned such that they couldn't run out of attacks and Struggle themselves to fainting - you'd expect a legendary Pokémon to have legendary amounts of power, not ten or fifteen PP per move.

Kimimaru

  • Max Stats
« Reply #620 on: August 14, 2010, 11:31:26 AM »
I agree, but this isn't like Mario Kart, where you basically only have to worry about that sort of thing when playing with random players (a bad idea in many online multiplayer games for one reason or another; in Nintendo's online stuff, the reason is rampant cheating). In Pokémon, where the vast majority of serious players play this way, putting everyone else (the players who don't, won't, or can't) on an even playing field is a good thing.

Most of Nintendo's online modes deal with playing against random players. Even if they didn't, why should they change the gameplay because others feel the need to hack the game?

Also, unlimited TMs will almost completely obsolete Egg Moves, which allowed newly bred Pokemon to obtain moves they wouldn't normally have. In normal gameplay, I would be able to teach most of my Pokemon the most useful moves (Earthquake, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt) and destroy the Elite Four with ease because I can reuse my TMs. I just don't believe that giving TMs unlimited use is the right direction for the series.
The Mario series is the best! It has every genre in video games but RTS'! It also has a plumber who does different roles, a princess, and a lot of odd creatures who don't seem to poop!

WarpRattler

  • Paid by the word
« Reply #621 on: August 14, 2010, 11:44:40 AM »
Most of Nintendo's online modes deal with playing against random players.
Are you saying you don't play with friends, which is the optimal form of online play in most games, Nintendo or otherwise?

Even if they didn't, why should they change the gameplay because others feel the need to hack the game?
Again, you're making it sound like fewer players than it actually is by saying "others."

unlimited TMs will almost completely obsolete Egg Moves
Good! Breeding for specific egg moves is incredibly tedious and, again, an activity many "hardcore" players bypass through hacking.

You keep bringing up things as examples why changing TMs is a bad thing, but instead they just show that some of the worst parts of the game are being fixed.

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #622 on: August 14, 2010, 11:50:54 AM »
All they need now are reliable methods of getting 'mons with good IVs (or better yet, just do away with IVs completely) and shinies.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

« Reply #623 on: August 14, 2010, 12:23:39 PM »
What is even the point of shinies.

Kimimaru

  • Max Stats
« Reply #624 on: August 14, 2010, 12:32:00 PM »
All they need now are reliable methods of getting 'mons with good IVs (or better yet, just do away with IVs completely) and shinies.

If that happens, I doubt I'll play Pokemon again. IVs are what makes each and every Pokemon unique. If those were removed, then what would differentiate one Pokemon from another of the same species and gender? Also, why should they change how shiny Pokemon are obtained? They are just for looks, and a random encounter with one is good enough. It just makes them that more valuable.

Good! Breeding for specific egg moves is incredibly tedious and, again, an activity many "hardcore" players bypass through hacking.

You keep bringing up things as examples why changing TMs is a bad thing, but instead they just show that some of the worst parts of the game are being fixed.

I don't see how decreasing the value of Pokemon is fixing the game. When trading, I often offer a Totodile with the Egg Moves "Ice Punch" and "Dragon Dance." A Totodile with these two moves is generally considered valuable, and as such, I am able to trade it for legendaries and other Pokemon I want. By making Egg Moves almost pointless, you're also decreasing the number of worthy qualities a Pokemon can have. Who would want to trade for a Pokemon that has moves you can easily get yourself? If someone takes the extra effort to get the Egg Moves he/she wants, others will admire that by wanting to trade for that Pokemon.

Are you saying you don't play with friends, which is the optimal form of online play in most games, Nintendo or otherwise?

I do play with my friends. However, in Pokemon Pearl, the most recent version I have, I must find random players on various chats and add them to my Friend Pad before I can battle them. This is essentially the same thing as battling random players.

Again, you're making it sound like fewer players than it actually is by saying "others."

I realize that there are many hackers out there in Pokemon, but again, why should a game company have to change the game because of hackers? In my online game, Super Mario Bros. Online, there were several players that used a speed hack that allowed their characters to run faster than normal without using any run energy, but I simply banned the players for one week instead of making everyone able to run forever.
The Mario series is the best! It has every genre in video games but RTS'! It also has a plumber who does different roles, a princess, and a lot of odd creatures who don't seem to poop!

WarpRattler

  • Paid by the word
« Reply #625 on: August 14, 2010, 01:37:45 PM »
IVs are what makes each and every Pokemon unique. If those were removed, then what would differentiate one Pokemon from another of the same species and gender?
EV distribution (more stupid invisible numbers), natures, movesets, trainer IDs, nicknames...

decreasing the value of Pokemon
legendaries
KO'd legendaries respawn
Why are you complaining about egg moves, again?

Also, why should they change how shiny Pokemon are obtained? They are just for looks, and a random encounter with one is good enough. It just makes them that more valuable.
Considering that some players soft-reset at legendaries just to force a shiny...

If someone takes the extra effort to get the Egg Moves he/she wants, others will admire that by wanting to trade for that Pokemon.
Or they'll trade for the exact same Pokémon that someone made in Pokésav, and the person who spent five minutes in a save editor will be better off than the person who may have spent days actually playing the game. I don't support the hacker in this case at all, but I also don't support the amount of time breeding for egg moves requires, particularly when it can be rendered an utter waste of time so easily.

I do play with my friends. However, in Pokemon Pearl, the most recent version I have, I must find random players on various chats and add them to my Friend Pad before I can battle them. This is essentially the same thing as battling random players.
And if you're doing this, you might as well use a simulator, where you'll never be up against Wondertomb.

I realize that there are many hackers out there in Pokemon, but again, why should a game company have to change the game because of hackers? In my online game, Super Mario Bros. Online, there were several players that used a speed hack that allowed their characters to run faster than normal without using any run energy, but I simply banned the players for one week instead of making everyone able to run forever.
But see, you still changed the game. Except, in your case, instead of making things easier for the non-cheating players, you removed the cheating players. That's doable in an MMO. It's not in Pokémon, short of actively disabling players who cheat by deleting their save or whatnot - and even if that were done, players would still use simulators and still not have to go through the effort you think is necessary to the game.

Kimimaru

  • Max Stats
« Reply #626 on: August 14, 2010, 02:48:29 PM »
Or they'll trade for the exact same Pokémon that someone made in Pokésav, and the person who spent five minutes in a save editor will be better off than the person who may have spent days actually playing the game. I don't support the hacker in this case at all, but I also don't support the amount of time breeding for egg moves requires, particularly when it can be rendered an utter waste of time so easily.

I understand the point you're making, but the idea is that hacking or using tools of any sort should not influence the development of a game series. A good solution would be to reduce the time it takes for an egg to hatch.

EV distribution (more stupid invisible numbers), natures, movesets, trainer IDs, nicknames...

While that may be true, two Pokemon that have the same nature, moveset, name, and were caught by the same trainer would have nothing different about them other than EV distribution; even then, you can remove their EV distribution and make it the same. It's very difficult to get two Pokemon with the same IVs, essentially making about every Pokemon unique.

And if you're doing this, you might as well use a simulator, where you'll never be up against Wondertomb.

Why should I have to do that just to play a game I like online?
The Mario series is the best! It has every genre in video games but RTS'! It also has a plumber who does different roles, a princess, and a lot of odd creatures who don't seem to poop!

ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #627 on: August 14, 2010, 03:22:17 PM »
A lot of these arguments remind me of the "steriods in baseball" debate.
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

SolidShroom

  • Poop Man
« Reply #628 on: August 14, 2010, 03:36:08 PM »
I kinda skipped a lot of this discussion, so I don't know if this comment is relevant, and I might be Glorbin' right now, but criticizing Pokémon for being butt easy is like Criticizing Mario for being too red.

« Reply #629 on: August 14, 2010, 04:01:34 PM »
Why do people make big arguments over this type 'o stuff anyway? Can't we all just get along and have friendly Pokémon battles together?

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