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i was wondering which religion are you (or if you don't have a religion at all).
Sono ichi fanku-ippai!
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If you're Catholic and you know it, clap your hands.... :)
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Interesting subject! I am a Unity Christian. Unity means that we don't accept things in the Bible to be the real truth (Noah's Ark, Adam and Eve, etc.). We believe those stories are just "symbolizing" the event's that ovccure in our evryday lives. Think of it as a guide to everyday life and you'll understand.
_____________________________________________
"Woo-hoo!" -Mario
"Yippee!" -Luigi
"Bwa-ha-ha!" -Bowser
"What? Who invited him?" -Me
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The stuff above ^ is my new signature...
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Lutheran.
Mega 2
Cybernetic Abiogenesis Project
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Hey Mario Maniac. Did you EVER EVEN read the Bible? You know GODS word. If it is his word then it MUST be true.
It''s a me Marionut#1
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Man, I'm starting to see why M.M. and M.n. are so mad each other.
M.n., if you didn't knew, the people who transcript the bible, through the centuries, added and changed some. So you can't be sure about if it is textually the God's word.
O.K.?
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well, of course they CHANGED it. if they didn't we'd all be reading it in greek, hebrew, and aramic. i would not want to do that.
Sono ichi fanku-ippai!
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AND you CANNOT threat the people that way. You CAN'T say that a guy has a bad fe, imposing the yours. IT IS WRONG. You have no reason to believe yourself and your religion better than others'. You CAN try to convert them, but NEVER in those terms. You are insulting Mario Maniac and his family by telling them that they are wrong and they don't listen God's word properly.
I am not going to discusse with you about the God's word (O.K., not again). I am nobody to say wich is the truth, I'm not even catholic! I just think, wichever the truth is, that you are wrong and you own M.M. am apologyze.
Think about it.
p.s.: DaFunkster, I know your intentions were good, but you can't post something about religion and think that there won't be a fight. Religion is something that every person has a different thought of, and... Some people can't be mature when you show them that their thoughts are different from the others. This is a Mario board; that should guarantee that people won't fight about religion or policy. I never mentioned the external deude, didn't I?
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Actually, in General Chat, a religious posting is probably fine... but flaming isn't. While I'm convinced that I am right and the Catholic church has the correct perspective, if I want to present my view I have to do it in an appropriate manner. With religion, we're going to have some major disagreements. Conduct yourselves respectfully, and the discussion is fine. Insult each other, and Mr. Face gets to chew off your legs.
Let's do the Mario, all together now!
http://codebook.stals.com
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hear me out: i have nothing AGAINST other religions, and i had no intentions of starting a flame war; i was just interested in hearing which religion you were, and maybe a little about it. mm and mn, please don't start a flame war. i know u guys are mortal enimies, but don't take it out on the rest of us.
btw: why are you guys fighting anyway?
Sono ichi fanku-ippai!
Edited by - daFunkster on 3/21/01 8:34:37 AM
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Why fight over religion? Its someones beliefs and everyone is entitled to one. Like the old saying goes, "Cant we ALL just get along?" Obviously not. Just because you have a different religion or beleifs doesn't mean that you are totally different from anybody else. For those of you who want a lesson take in mind what was done to the Jews by Hitler, blaming them for the war and using them for a scapegoat, and people beleived him because thats the way people are. Everyone can get along regardless or Religion. And as for me my first name is the name of my religion. And no Ness is not my first name. i am a Christian Baptist. We beleive in god and all the rest, but just because another doesn't beleve in god im not gonna treat him/her differently. Come on people! work together for a better society!
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Look Santious what did i do to offend you? The King James version was translated correctly except a few things such as idioms didnt come through the translation k? i wasnt insulting MM so mind your own business.
It''s a me Marionut#1
Edited by - marionut#1 on 3/23/2001 4:48:12 AM
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"What would people do if they hear that I'm a Jesus Freak?!?!" Oh yeah! I, am Methodist. Go me!
:)
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HEY! Marionut! cool your jets! Nobody is here to offend anyone and we definetly dont need a flame war. This was supposed to be a talk about religion, lets not insult anyone, and if you told me you were a jesus freak i would say ok and not do anything. I have no problem with jesus freaks, it probably devil worshipers that i have something against. Do you fit in that catagory Marionut? Just Kidding but lets cut down on the Insults. Keep it clean.
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I say religion is fine, just so long as it doesn't interfere with your common sense.
Some conflicts are necessary establishments and enforcements of moral values, others are just silly.
Lee "Mega 2" Sherman
Sneaky Lying Cheating Giant Ninja Koopa
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Geez Lola i think about the only thing we dont have in common is that im a Republican and your a Democrat. I used to be a Methodist but now im nondenominational. by the way being a Jesus Freak is ok in my book (not that i am one or any thing). Now Look I did NOT ask sanctus that question to start a flame war, i just wanted to know what i did to him.
It''s a me Marionut#1
Edited by - marionut#1 on 3/23/2001 4:47:06 AM
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OK, I overreacted a little. M.N. never did anything directly to me, I just didn't like him, and I thought he didn't like me. I thought he was some kind of nazi or something. Man, he's talking good things about Hitler in another posting (or maybe not; my English is not good). See? I cannot be sure. Anyway, Marionut, if you don't have anything against me, I won't have anything against you.
Still, it wasn't exactly friendly to say that about God's word and that... I'm telling you, you can't impose yourself over others.
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Catholic.
I'm clapping my hands...
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well actually everyone is entitled to an opinion and it is true that Hitler was a very smart and clever person. Doesn't really matter wether you think hes the devil or if you think hes cool, because hes DEAD, and the only thing to worry about was if M.N. went off and started killing Jews o.O which i know he won't.
"It is I, Mario" ~ Correct Grammar
Htpp://www.geocities.com/ness_shady2001/index.html ~ My Site Of STUFF!
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Okay, quick question...my church is going to Silver Dollar City today and this weekend for a church/youth ministry thing. Since this topic is about religion, I was wondering if any of the TMK members were going. So...anyone going?
:)
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Silver Dollar City is AWESOME! Are you going for the Young Christians Weekend? I wasn't able to go, but some of my friends are.
You have to ride Wildfire and post back about it, right?
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This may sound like I know absolutely nothing, but...where is Silver Dollar City?
You think ya somethin more/ya so supafly/blind to the fact youre blind/youre so empty inside/its hard for me to get this thru to you/blind to the fact ya blind.
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Silver Dollar City is a theme park in southwestern Missouri. It isn't very well known outside the Ozarks.
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Oh. Okay. I'm not in that area, so I guess I'm not going. Besides the fact that the weekends almost up, that is :Þ.
You think ya somethin more/ya so supafly/blind to the fact youre blind/youre so empty inside/its hard for me to get this thru to you/blind to the fact ya blind.
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Well I had a good time! The only thing wrong with it was that it was very cold! But I still had a gppd time. Sorry, if any of you weren't able to go. And, it wans't just a state thing...people from all over the country came to this. It was cool! (lierally!)
:)
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Sorry- that should be; literally
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Yes but you also misspelled good (You dont have to wrry about typos here). I hope that you had a very good time. Hopefully this leftover winter cold will just go away, im getting tired of sweaters and jackets....i just found out something interesting thats Religion oriented. My mom told me that she would have named me Christ if she didn't think people would have teased me so instead she took a "shortcut" and named me Christian. O.O <---- Making a face right now.
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What's the difference between a Republican and a Democrat?
Mature answers, please.
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OK OK I think i can explain about WWII interesting me. You see my great uncle Bud (his real name was Charles) was killed in Iwo Jima and my grandmothers uncle got killed there too. Believe me Im APPOLED by Hitlers ideas. (hmmm that seems to end the war with SY now just to end it with MM and PTC)
It''s a me Marionut#1
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I hope you guys arn't nazis(I know one)because I'm jewish...Can I still clap my hands?
WAIT!There's M.N. o brother
Would you like to buy a star?
Edited by - KinopioToad on 4/28/2001 7:47:15 AM
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I'm an out and out atheist. Not "none", but atheist, a system of nonreligious beliefs.
And if you don't like it, tough buns ^_^
Yeah, I know someone who considers himself a Nazi, but he knows bugger all about it. What a moron.
Pocket Monster Island - http://fryguy64.tripod.com
Pokémon guides, downloads and info.
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Atheist? Welcome to the club!
'If you are an atheist and you know it, snap your fingers'. (????? Don't ask me why).
And, I also know a guy who believes himself a nazi. He likes to spend the night shooting jews and black people with big ammo. Nice guy.
;) I don't have nothing aginst the jews or the black people. Just kidding. (I mean, I was kidding when I said I had a Nazi friend, not when I said that I have nothing against jews and black people... Ness-Shady please don't kill me... ;D ).
So, what's the difference between democrats and republicans?
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I am Jewish by lineage, dictionary definition athiest (One who denies the existance of a deity or deities) by belief. I go to synagogue and stuff, but I don't believe anything about gods - they're just security blankets, in my opinion.
--Andrevan
~The Nintendo King~
Andrevan@aol.com
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Amen to that!O I just had to say that because of religion and all...
Would you like to buy a star?
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no need to fret when im around toad Youll find out im no Nazi if you just read my replys
It''s a me Marionut#1
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Okay, I'm not the one to start a flame war, but you're luck I AM a christan, otherwise I would get even more ****ed about God being a "security blancket" But...that is your opinion, and I SHOULD respect that.
>:/
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This might get long.
I am a Christian. I believe in a God. I believe that that God created everything in 6 days, and I believe that he created man in His image. I believe that that God loves us. I believe that man was created to live with God forever in a perfect world. I believe that mankind turned away from that God, and that, as a just God, he requires remission of that rebellion. I believe he came to earth in the form of a man to die on a cross as a sacrifice to forgive that rebellion. I believe that He died so that we might be forgiven and once again live with Him eternally in a perfect world. I believe that the one and only way to live with God is to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, to call on Him to save us, to submit to His will for our lives, and to live each day as he commands us to.
I believe that the Bible is the spoken word of that God. I believe that it is completely, literally, and consistently true, and I believe that it is the best model to which I can lead my life. I believe that it has the power to rebuke, to teach, to counsel, and to inspire.
That is what I believe.
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Ok, I know that most of you people think I am crazy or foolish or weak-minded. That is alright with me, you can think what you want. I believe these things and I believe in this God because of many spiritual experiences with Him and because of several years of study.
On the other hand, I can understand why some people chose atheism or agnosticism. Believing that there is a God who controls the universe and to whom every person is accountable requires a large step of faith. If you disagree with me, I cannot change your mind. However, you cannot change mine either. I do not and will not compromise my faith.
If you have read this far, thanks. I appreciate your ear.
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You belive and I belive and that's that.
Would you like to buy a star?
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I couldn't have said it better myself.
Does your face hurt?
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I like what Hinopio said and I'm agree with you all. It's really a good thing that we can understand each other, even if we are in disagree on something.
I don't want a star.
My face doesn't hurt.
What's the difference between Rapublicans and Democrats?
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Are you sure your face dosen't hurt?
And even if you did want to buy a star, dont go to him, I can get you really cheap ones.
Does your face hurt?
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If your face doesn't hurt now, try doing a pushup while standing on your head. After you all a few times, _then_ your face will hurt. I guarantee it. Not that I've actually tried it or anything... *(
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Bravo, Hinopio! :) I agree with you. Since this topic is about religion...I wanted to tell you folks something. I had this really nifty dream. My friend, who HATES church, temple, and anything that has to do with religion, was saying some sort of prayer. It was weird because she's only said a prayer twice in her life! It's also weird because I woke up from my dream saying the prayer with her! All I remember is that the dream had to do with "blesses be", "tresspasses", and "one hundred." I know it's not the Lord's prayer...but it's driving me nuts! Anyone have an idea?
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Hinopio-If you believe in the literal truth of the whole Bible, does that mean you reject evolution, Copernican astronomy, and all the other stuff that contradicts Genesis?
Lee "Mega 2" Sherman
Sneaky Lying Cheating Giant Ninja Koopa
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Mega 2- That's right. Becuase I believe the Bible is literal truth, evolution is out, along with big bang and old earth theories.
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Totally agree! When we studied planet and stuff like that in science class, I was always tempted to put FALSE when a question was, like, was the universe created by the big bang, or something.
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This is the only beef I have with the Big Bang being taught in schools. The Big Bang is a theory, as is my belief in Creation. Neither is repeatable or observable, and so both are outside the realm of true science. Neither are really provable; it is a matter of personal conviction which theory one chooses to believe. That is just great with me. The problem comes when one is dogmatically taught as fact while the other is completely left out. I went to a Christian school, so Creation was taught in our science classes as fact. However, we did learn about evolution also. I think it is important for students to learn several theories, making sure they understand that they are theories (ideas and not necessarily provable fact), and allow perfectly able students to come to their own conclusion about the beginning of the universe.
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It is a fact that the Universe is expanding. It has also been established to be at least 14,000,000,000 years old. True, the Big Bang is a theory, but parts of it have been proven.
Lee "Mega 2" Sherman
Sneaky Lying Cheating Giant Ninja Koopa
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Don't know 'bout the rest of ya, but I don't believe that, either. I believe it's around 6,000 years old. I got some proof for ya, but I'd have to dig it up.
Does your face hurt?
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What proof establishes that the universe is 14 billion years old and that it is expanding?
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The component hadronic particles of light travel at 1,079,891,657 kilometers per hour through vacuum. This is a physical constant. The Hubble Space Telescope has observed quasi-stellar objects 132,547,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilometers away, establishing that they have existed for approximately 14,000,000,000 years. This shows that the Universe is much more ancient than the Creationists claim. If everything had been created 6,000 years ago, the light from other galaxies and most of our own would not have reached Earth yet, and everything beyond a small sphere of the Perseid Arm would be invisible to any telescope.
The fact that certain clusters of galaxies are moving away from other clusters of galaxies was established in the early 1990s by the Infra-Red Astronomical Satellite. It is not known for sure that they have all been moving uniformly from a single point, however.
Lee "Mega 2" Sherman
Sneaky Lying Cheating Giant Ninja Koopa
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Uhh...that went right past me.
Does your face hurt?
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I think I understand:
We can all assume that it takes one year for light to travel the distance of one light year, correct?
The hubble telescope has seen the light of stars that have been determined to be about 133 septillion kilometers away. This converts to about 14 trillion light years.
Hence, those stars have to have existed for at least 14 trillion years for their light to actually reach us.
Had the universe existed for a mere 6 thousand years, we'd only be able to see the light of stars 6 thousand light years away or closer.
Make sense?
Aid
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I'm a Christian and that's all that anyone needs to know. I go to a Presbyterian church but I don't believe in denonimational segregation. Anyway, if our mission is to spread God's word, and love and respect each other at the same time, isn't that what we should be doing?
Note: Best viewed in font Sarcasm.
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Those are some good points, based on observable data. However, I disagree with the conclusions. This is why:
As you all know, the formula used to find the amount of time taken to travel a given distance at a given speed is
Time = Distance / Speed
Using this formula and the known speed of light (which is constant), distant stars are found to be millions of light years away. We cannot argue the speed of light or the distance of the stars; these are observable. The only variable left in the equation is Time. According to Einstein's Theory of Relativity, Time is not constant and can be distorted by speed and gravity.
We know that at the event horizon around a black hole, time stands still.
There is a theory, known as Gravitational Time Dilation, which attempts to explain the belief of Creationists that the universe is young. It depends on the assumption that the universe has a boundary.
This theory holds that the universe has expanded at some time in the past out of a previous state in which it was surrounded by a white hole (a black hole running in reverse) and near the center of which was the earth. The event horizon of this white hole would have shrunk and eventually disappeared as the matter expanded. Time would literally stand still on the Earth (within the event horizon). Less than a day on earth would pass, but it would appear the millions of years were passing in deep space. Stars and galaxies would appear to be moving much faster than they do now, but an observer outside the event horizon could measure the speed of light to be the same constant that it is today.
This theory is consistent with the Bible's creation account, and all of the concepts used are widely accepted by cosmologists.
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Oh..universe! I could have sworn it said "Earth." Dunno what I was thinking, it was kinda late when I posted that. Sorry, my bad.
Does your face hurt?
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If one were to connect the dots, you'd find that religion and science are more intertwined than you'd think.
For example - how did we get here? We had to have been created by something, but would a large man with a long white beard have the free time on his hands to do so?
And what happens when we die? Define "soul." All questions which are part of an enigma, stuck to the bottom of the pan in which it was cooked.
Personally, I'm not a religious person, however I am not opposed to religion. Unfourtanetly, there are many Jesus Nazis out there who don't see it the same way.
Not to say that Christianity is all bigoted or that other religions can't be.
"Plug your controller into controller port 2. If you do that he won''t be able to read your mind!"
-Roy Campbell (Metal Gear Solid)
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See. thats why Science and religion should have a umm......message board restriction on each other. They just dont go together well. beign a Christian I believe the Earth was created by god and yadda yadda, but I also respect the views and opinions of those scientist geeks....I mean people.
"Hey dude, 1976 called, it said it wants its haircut back." ~ Joe Dirt, in theaters now.
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I have to agree with Grizzlemoth here. Science and religion are more intricately intertwined than most people think (or want to admit). I am a Christian, but I hope people don't think I'm a Jesus Nazi... I like to look at things from different points of view.
Let me put this idea out there- the Aryan nation, Nazis, white power, and all that garbage claims to be affiliated with Christianity, but they are not. They are considered radical right wing factions, which is a pity because the right wing doesn't want to have anything to do with them!
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If I believe that God made the universe, then I must also believe that nothing that can be proven true can contradict God... right? That's my view on science -- anything we discover to be true must correspond to religious truth, as science and religion are different aspects of the eternal truth...
The problem comes when people decide that a THEORY is truth. It happens in both religion and in science. In religion, some medieval theologians decided that the sun must revolve around the earth, given the earth's primacy in the universe and importance because of God's special relationship with man. However, that was merely a theory... this led to the persecution of Galileo. The Catholic Church today notes that religious THEORY and PROPOSITIONS can't be taken in the same way as truths... something that some people in the middle ages didn't understand. The same goes for science... at one point in time, scientists believe that frogs were generated from mud and flies from manure. This was proven incorrect as well.
Theories can be true or false... but until proven, you must remember they are still theories. Einstein's Theory of Relativity, the Theory of Evolution, and others are still unproven theories... they are different from scientific Laws, things that CAN be proven. Evolution with regards to the human species can't be made a scientific law until a "Missing Link" is found (it hasn't, so far). Einstein's theory of relativity can't be proven until we can accelerate observable matter to the speed of light.
Let's do the Mario, all together now!
http://codebook.stals.com
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Hinopio-Your scenerio sounds essentially the same as the Big Bang Theory except for the timeframe.
David Dayton-In science if something is a theory that doesn't mean it's any less proven than a law. A law is a formula that describes a physical constant, a theory is an explanation of a natural phenomenon.
Lee "Mega 2" Sherman
Sneaky Lying Cheating Giant Ninja Koopa
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Mega2- My theory sounds like the Big Bang? Well, yeah. I guess it does. <Hinopio thinks for a moment> That is because both theories are based on the same observable facts, that the universe is expanding and time is variable and what not. There are a few differences, though. Gravitational Time Dilation theorizes that while the universe expanded at rates that caused distant stars to appear billions of years old, the earth (within the white hole) aged less than a week. The other difference is that the Creationist theory relies on the existence of a creator-God.
I think that's what the argument of beginnings really boils down to- whether or not one is willing to accept the existence of a supreme being.
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I think GOD made the BIG BANG, weird but who knows?O and my face hurts.
All hail the almighty Oreo cookie master.
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David you confuse me. I believe that science and religion kind of contradict one another......
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I agree with Kipnotoad and what hipno said that was real long.
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Ness_Shady- Could you explain to me why you think religion and science do not agree? You confuse me ;)
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Science and religion do not need to contradict each other. All science really is is humanity's attempt to understand the world around us, the world that God created. Religion tells us *what* happened and *who* made it happen, science tries to explain the details of *how* it happened. Of course, science is far from perfect. We're only human.
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Right on.
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It's like Charles Fort said, science and religion are both attempts to discover the nature of things, but they're both dogmatic. Obviously, science is a lot less dogmatic than religion, but there is still that human factor that interferes with logical evaluation of hypotheses.
Lee "Mega 2" Sherman
Sneaky Lying Cheating Giant Ninja Koopa
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Before starting, I would like to say that I pretty much do believe that God or something exists, but I still don't have a religion. Besides, I actually don't like thinking that God exists and it's watching me all the time and yaddi yadda, but >embarrased< I do pray when I (or someone I love) am in real trouble. I promessed that I would believe in God and admit it and sometimes thank him, if... uh, let's say if he saved my butt :) (seriously, someone was about to die and didn't. Well not really ABOUT to die, but there were a possibility). OK, ok: I know that I can't believe that God hears me and not the people starving, OK, I also know that it's not real faith believing in God because of proofs. But I made a promess, OK?
------- This is my message, from the start:
Oh, COME ON... You are just messing up things. Hinopio, don't try so hard. You don't have to find a religion-compatible explanation for all those facts; after all, according to the Bible, Religion and so on, God is omnipotent: he can make EVERYTHING in ANY way in an infinitely short period of time. Of course, that doesn't have sense if you say that it took him SIX DAYS to make the Universe and even more, that he needed ANOTHER WHOLE NEW DAY to rest because he was TIRED. Not even saying that God CAN be tired has sense; of course, unless you say he WANTED to be tired. That way it would be possible. Of course, even saying that God is omnipotent is a paradox ("could he make an ice-cream mountain so big that even him can't eat it?"), but that's not my point. You are free to believe whatever you want to believe. Again, my point is: God can do everything. He can make light faster than three millions of kilometers in half a second. He can make an arm pop up in your head. And of course he can make those stars visible, without that meaning a change in the date of the Creation. I mean, we also have evidences of, I don't know, dinosaurs and even humans living millions of years ago. So what, he's God, he can make chimical processes go faster, wait what am I saying? He CREATED the chimichal processes. He can make the chimichal processes appear in any way. Fellas, grow up: this is God who are we dealing with. The guy created all. He is concient of every particle of every atom, and of the final object (for example, a chair or a cube). He created life. [expletive deleted], he created Time. He could make the whole Universe and destroy it, and make it and destroy and make it and destroy it infinite times, instanteanally. He also could do that with time. So stop saying 'oh, God doesn't exists, there are stars older than the Univers', because that's pure s**t. If God exists, then of course there is an explanation of that. If God doesn't, then everything is a lie and that's not the age of the Universe, but still you can't be sure about anything. Who cares. I'll find it out when I die. But there will be 70 years between the moment I'm writing this and the moment I die (let's hope so), and I want to spend them on living, not on caring about if God exists or doesn't, because any of those options can be proved. So, bring the chicks, the music and the beers, because it's PARTY TIME!
P.S.: Two things. Relativity is pretty much proved, either way the atomic bombs wouldn't explode (that would be nice), or at least that's what scientists say. Evolution is also pretty proved; it's a tendeance on living. Scientists have found little "evolutions" on a specie in a relative short period of time (some years, or maybe just a century). Of course, God can still exist. But I still don't believe in Bible, it doesn't have sense in many parts. Of course, if God really exists and 'told' (I can't find the real word on my dictionary, is it 'prescribe'?) the Bible for prople to copy it, one can assume that through the centuries the copyists may changed some things for their own benefit. For example, that part when Noé (I think you spell it Noeh) gets drunk and his black sons laughs of him, and his white sons help him, and then Noé says that black people will allways be cursed and be slaves because of that; don't you think that maybe Jews made that up as a justification for black slaves (Jews of that time had black people as slaves working for them)? I think it's possible, Hinopio please don't kill me. I think it's very possible for a guy to copy the Bible adding things of his own. Of course, If so, the guy is probably burning in hell now, but the damage is done :/ .
I really hope not to offend anyone with all the things above, it's not like I'm swearing it, they are just theories. As I said, I really would like to think on more important things for now on.
I mean it's normal to worry about these things, humans have been doing this for a long, long time, but there is a moment when you need to put your feet on the ground and say: 'I need some rest. It's 3:31 a.m. and I am awake and writing in a computer in a language wich isn't mine to some people I don't really know. I'm thirsty also'.
Edited by - DavidDayton on 7/19/2001 12:20:46 PM
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Hey look,I got the 70th post here as well as the age one!hehe:)
"If it''''s a joke, laugh at it"
All hail the almighty oreo master
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Must be a really corrupt version that gives Noah's sons distinctive features like skin color. The black/white thing I think you are thinking of is when people say the mark put on Cain is black skin. People used that to justify slavery and more. Sigh.
Not to be petty, but while the evolution of a species is proven (animal species do change over time), evolution of a species into a new species hasn't been proven, and won't be until fossil evidence is found linking the species. It's a promising theory, but we really have nothing to prove it with yet, as we are unable to find real links between species that may have evolved...
(Personally, I don't really care much either way if evolution did or didn't occur, but it irks me when people assume things to be true with no evidence of them being so.)
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But there IS evidence for evolution. There may be few fossil bridges between species, but there are many transitional fossils that link larger groups. Dinosaurs to birds, ungulates to whales, fish to reptiles and amphibians, reptiles to mammals, apes to humans. All of these have many in-between forms in the fossil record. The fossil record is exactly how it should be if evolution were true. There is too much evidence supporting the Theory of Evolution to consider it unconfirmed.
The story of Noah's sons is an etiological myth. It was made to explain the origins of the three main human groups as the authors saw them: Hebrews (Shem), Greeks (Japheth), and Canaanites (Ham). The curse on Ham was put in to justify the enslavement of the Canaanites, the person who wrote that part of Genesis didn't even know about blacks.
Lee "Mega 2" Sherman
Sneaky Lying Cheating Giant Ninja Koopa
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<clapping hand with Mega Two's in Harlem way -Question: does that even exist?> Yeah, baby, you said it, you're da man.
I wonder where did it say that Noé had a black son... <thinking>
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Hey D.D. what did you edit on my message?
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I bleeped out a swear word. ;)
Referring to early statements... I merely return to the point that we don't have any evidence that directly supports a bridge between species. While it is theorized that some dinosaur species evolved into the modern day birds, that is contingent on finding links between the two. The problem is that while we can pose suppositions about possible connections between various animals, it would really require an extensive series of minor mutations to result in the kind of evolution claimed. As far as evolution goes, I'm agnostic -- it's an interesting theory, and there is some evidence for it, but there is no real proof as of yet.
Regarding Noah and the bible, I was referring not to how the author(s) of the text considered it, but how later people interpreted it. The mark of Cain was often used as an excuse to enslave people with dark skin...
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To answer the original question in this topic, I'm a Christian, and just to make my topic shorter, I believe the stuff Hinopio said he believes on page 3. I'm tired of reading now. This topic is too long for me...
Edited by - Winx on 7/24/2001 9:12:17 PM
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So,
what is the difference between republicans and democrats?
Oh and I don't like Bush. I think he's from the right wing, isn't he? Well is that a republican or a democrat?
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Yeah, Bush is a right winger.
You want to know the difference between Republicans and Democrats? Well, this is my version, of course my Independent/Green/Monarchist party spin might throw a few wrenches here and there... (seriously, I like to poke fun at both parties. I don't completely agree with either.)
First of all, all political parties are simply philosophies about how government should be run. Since government is all about the betterment of society (democracy anyway), parties are really philosophies of the development of society. That said-
Democrats think that the best way to improve society as a whole is to implement government programs like welfare, social security, etc. (oh, by the way, we'll have to tax you some more. sorry!)
Republicans think that the best way to improve society as a whole is to let people do their own thing and only let the government take care of things like the police, military, public works, etc. (you can't afford to eat? bummer!)
This is the way I like to put it. If Democracy wasn't an option, Democrats would be more likely to support Communism, and Republicans would probably support Anarchy.
That's an interesting thought...
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hmmm...old topic...It just so happens I saw this the same day I find out Im sposed to go to some fishing retreat thing....anyway, all together now!!
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.
I have seen Him in the watch fires of a hundred circling camps
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps;
His day is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His day is marching on.
I have read a fiery Gospel writ in burnished rows of steel;
“As ye deal with My contemners, so with you My grace shall dealâ€;
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with His heel,
Since God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Since God is marching on.
He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment seat;
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! be jubilant, my feet;
Our God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Our God is marching on.
In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us live to make men free;
[originally As he died to make men holy, let us die to make men free]
While God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! While God is marching on.
He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,
He is wisdom to the mighty, He is honor to the brave;
So the world shall be His footstool, and the soul of wrong His slave,
Our God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Our God is marching on.
who can name that song???
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sors salutis
et virtutis
michi nunc contraria,
est affectus
et defectus
semper in angaria.
Hac in hora
sine mora
corde pulsum tangite;
quod per sortem
sternit fortem,
mecum omnes plangite!
I can get you the MARIO AND ZELDA CARTOONS!!!go to my "get the mario and zelda cartoons FREE!!!!" topic and request what episodes you want!!!
you really dont know, do you??
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So... this forum did have intelligent conversations before hand. Only, it's too bad that it was almost a year ago. Well, I guess we should attempt to pick up where it left off, exluding that bit about Democrates and Republicans, which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic...
Oh, I should mention that your song is called "Battle Hymn of the Republic" but please, do not continue with naming songs.
I am a Roman Catholic and have been raised so my entire life. I have wavered in my faith as much as the next man, hell, I've even considered the possiblitly of no God, but each and every time I find myself to come back to Christianity with stronger faith. I had only wanted to give you people some of my background before I started in on this.
Now I do not believe in evolution. I believe it may have been possible, but I will not believe it until there is solid proof. As DavidDayton had stated before, there is no evidence that Humans and Monkeys, Dinosaurs and modern day birds, or fish to reptiles and amphibians. It seemed that the people he was discussing this with were not understanding what he was saying. David said that although there was fossil evidence OF them, there was no evidence of a link between them. Nothing too complicated to understand.
Now about the Mark of Cain, it was been said that it was used as an excuse for the slavery of dark colored skinned people. I do believe that to be true, however people had argued that if God believes that all people are equal, than the Bible must not be God's word for it is condoneing slavery. I believe that the Bible is the word of God, only done so through man kind, and as we all know, humanity is not perfect. "Truely, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind." I feel that quote generally sums up how I feel, only on a higher level.
I hope we are able to revive an intelligent debate, not one filled with spam or immature behavior.
I am Nobody
Nobody is Perfect
I am Perfect
Edited by - Black Mage on 5/11/2002 4:01:26 PM
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I was gonna put something smart, but.... hey!! you got something against my song??!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sors salutis
et virtutis
michi nunc contraria,
est affectus
et defectus
semper in angaria.
Hac in hora
sine mora
corde pulsum tangite;
quod per sortem
sternit fortem,
mecum omnes plangite!
I can get you the MARIO AND ZELDA CARTOONS!!!go to my "get the mario and zelda cartoons FREE!!!!" topic and request what episodes you want!!!
you really dont know, do you??
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Who is stopping you from putting something "smart"? If anything, I encouraged it. And no, I don't have anything against your song, I just knew that somehow, if I didn't say something, this topic would go off track.
I am Nobody
Nobody is Perfect
I am Perfect
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my dad was baptist
my mom's side and her children <my siblings and i> were raised to be roman catholic
i'm not sure i can believe what they say, though
do not get me wrong
i believe in God <yes i will capitalize some things> i believe in Jesus
but i do NOT believe in religion
i do believe in evolution, there has to be a scientific explanation for how we came about
it couldn't just be that a Supreme Being created us as we are because even now we're evolving
i don't see how you can't <and i don't want any flames from you black mage> believe in evolution...
how do you think we got here?
back to where i don't believe in religion...
i suppose you've heard about the scandals in the catholic church concerning the priests and little boys? well, if they were truly on a higher peg than the average person, how could they be able to do something like this?
also, why are no women allowed to be priests in the catholic church? in shakespeare's day, women weren't allowed to act, but they certainly do now
if God created us all equal, wouldn't women be just as good to be a messenger of God?
finally, for today, why does the church teach us that God is a man? if God truly created adam and eve <another thing i don't believe> and he created adam first, in his image, then God would be a man
but i believe that the Great One is so far beyond our conceptions of man and woman
this is a very interesting discussion
_0-/<______________
who wants to buy a skunkle?
_0-/<):________________
Y8FooD...well, you did
Edited by - cable04 on 5/13/2002 1:04:48 PM
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I can't believe you honestly thought I'd flame you for you beliefs. I didn't know I came off that way. But, enough about that.
Interesting theories on evolution, but who is to say that God couldn't have created us in the respective time period we were created. I do not mean to say that there is no evolution at all, only I do not believe the theory as to how us as humans came to be. I do not believe that we evolved from monkeys and apes. I wouldn't rule out that God created Cave men, and we may have evolved from a form of humanity such as that, but I still see it as farfetched. However, the same could be said about Creationists, so I can't argue my point very well.
It's hard not to hear about the pedophile priests, and I agree, it is very vile and disgusting. However, you must remember, Priests are humans. Humans make mistakes. They are the same as any of us, whether or not they decided to preach God's word. You can't blame God or the faith as a whole for a few people's actions. That would be similar to saying all Germans are Nazis, do you see what I mean? As for women preaching, I agree, they would be just as good at the job, however, back in the days of old, when Catholicism was formed, women were not equal, due to the society of the time. I would assume that it was passed down by traditions, but as to why it's not changed now, I do not know. Nothing is perfect, I guess.
Adam and Eve, is a story to which I believe to be just that, a story. Something to explain how we got there, but not necessarily the solid truth. However, I assume Jesus took the form of a man, and God is taught to be a man, because if Jesus was born a female, no one would have listened to him during his time. Women were looked down upon, and how would it sound if your God was a woman? I think that God may have used the image as a man to be able to inform the people better.
Interesting, indeed.
I am Nobody
Nobody is Perfect
I am Perfect
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sorry, Im too underdeveloped to participate in these discussions.....maybe soon though...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sors salutis
et virtutis
michi nunc contraria,
est affectus
et defectus
semper in angaria.
Hac in hora
sine mora
corde pulsum tangite;
quod per sortem
sternit fortem,
mecum omnes plangite!
I can get you the MARIO AND ZELDA CARTOONS!!!go to my "get the mario and zelda cartoons FREE!!!!" topic and request what episodes you want!!!
you really dont know, do you??
-
Thats true but even though people listend to Jesus most didn't belive him. Oh the Adam and Eve story I think that they were created as a single celled organsium and the evelution was speded up so they were humans.
Mario and Yoshi rule!
http://www.geocities.com/chauncey7175/Yoshies_Super_Island.html is a great Place for Yoshi! Ps.Visit the message board! note:Im also Ludwig Von Koopa as well as SuperYoshi7175. Ps.again Ok Join the Mario Clan the only clan totally devoted to Mario!
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no, i didn't think you'd actually flame me, but i just wanted it to be stated that i'm not trying to make you mad, even though our views are supprisingly different
another thing i don't believe in
church
i only go because my mom doesn't know how i truly feel because I'M not quite sure how i truly feel
i don't like church
i don't like what we say, how we say it, or listening to the priest <or preacher or whomever you listen to>
i don't like having rules on how i can believe in God
take for instance how christians think that a jewish person will go to hell because they don't believe that Jesus was the son of God
final thought of religion for today
i don't believe in religion because
how can there BE so many types of religion if that's what we're supposed to have?
if religion was true, wouldn't we all believe the same things and have the same religion?
_0-/<______________
who wants to buy a skunkle?
_0-/<):________________
Y8FooD...well, you did
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Okay, I wouldn't get upset if you disagreed with me, to be honest, I hoped someone would, so we could actually have a debate/discussion.
I think it's okay if you don't believe in church, I know many people who don't. As for how things are done in mass, I know it's mostly tradition, but personally I fing it interesting. I know when I was younger, I hated it. It was boring to sit there for an hour, but now, I listen to the readings and get to hear how my priest interpurts them. It's quite interesting to see how they may differ from my own. I wouldn't say Church has set rules, you can do it in anyway you want. I see church more as a guide to help you worship God. You don't have to believe that Jews go to hell, but you are correct, that is what is taught by the church. Homo***uals also share the same fate, as do people who do not believe in God. Personally, I don't think Jews will end up going to another place, I'm not too sure how to explain it. I'm sorry if I didn't get what you meant by rules, I wasn't too clear on it.
As for there being many religions, I don't think that means any one is wrong per say. Take Mormons for example, they were founded by John Smith, but our church, the Roman Catholic, does not deem them a religion. To the Roman Catholics, they are a cult. Again, I think the variety is due to humanity's error. We often change things because we do not like them, take the King James Version of the Bible for instance. King James didn't like much of what was in there, so he changed it as he saw fit, and now, many religions use it. I don't think it takes away from God having more religions, nor do I think it makes any of them wrong, but It's how you see it.
I am Nobody
Nobody is Perfect
I am Perfect
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well, we're not sposed to have so many religions. I consider all of them to be controlled by demons, except Christianity (sorry if I offended anybody, these are just my beliefs.) Have you ever, when thinking about Christianity, gotten the thought that maybe Christianity isn't the right religion, and you better become a muslim or jew or hindu?? I get these all the time, But they are just demons trying to screw you over (again, sorry if I offended anybody).
And then it just leads to a train of thought that doesnt end until you begin to consider the other religions. AS SOON as I have a chance to get out, I pick up the nearest bible related book And just read for hours.
And about church, I do truly need it. Ive been seperated from my church for over a month now because of circumstances beyond my control, And I can feel myself slipping away from everything I had. As soon as I start thinking about this, I get those 'change your religion thoughts', or something trying to make feel even lower. Just remembering all this stuff and posting it restarted that tgrain of thought...and, well, I think Im gonna go read or watch a video or something.
btw, BlackMage, how old are you?? I also noticed your an EoFF (for those who dont know, Eyes on Final Fantasy) fan. My point about that, I just forgot, do have a nice day.
oh yeah, I am Baptist.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sors salutis
et virtutis
michi nunc contraria,
est affectus
et defectus
semper in angaria.
Hac in hora
sine mora
corde pulsum tangite;
quod per sortem
sternit fortem,
mecum omnes plangite!
I can get you the MARIO AND ZELDA CARTOONS!!!go to my "get the mario and zelda cartoons FREE!!!!" topic and request what episodes you want!!!
you really dont know, do you??
Edited by - smb allstars master on 5/14/2002 8:55:48 PM
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i sort of think all churches are like a cult, but maybe i'm not to familliar with the true meaning and rules for it being actually called a "cult"
in my honors geometry class, we often get far off subject and one day were talking about how my teacher thinks you need religion to be a good person
I TOTALLY DISAGREE!!!!!!!
i don't need religion to be a good person, i have a fine sense of what is right or wrong
i guess it helps to believe in God, as i do, but i don't think you NEED to to be a good person
i knew a guy named, well... it doesn't matter, anyway, last year i knew a guy who said he didn't believe in God <which i may bring up later for different discussion> but he wasn't a bad guy
he dressed in all black, but he didn't smoke or beat people up, or steal, or kill, or cheat on people, or make fun of people... well, no more than the average guy, but he didn't try to hurt people
is he a bad guy because he doesn't believe in God?
_0-/<______________
who wants to buy a skunkle?
_0-/<):________________
Y8FooD...well, you did
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no, he is not a bad guy, but unfortunately he is doomed to go to hell. (my beliefs)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sors salutis
et virtutis
michi nunc contraria,
est affectus
et defectus
semper in angaria.
Hac in hora
sine mora
corde pulsum tangite;
quod per sortem
sternit fortem,
mecum omnes plangite!
I can get you the MARIO AND ZELDA CARTOONS!!!go to my "get the mario and zelda cartoons FREE!!!!" topic and request what episodes you want!!!
you really dont know, do you??
-
I agree with you, you don't NEED religion. However, I find it to be a guiding light, but it's all opinion. Some people like it, others find it bothersome. Nothing we can do about it.
Also, I know some people who don't believe in God and they are nice people too. Hell, some of them are my friends. I don't try to press my beliefs on them, nor do they to me. If they feel they don't need God, so be it. Who are we to judge. But, yeah, people can be good and not believe in God, I don't think that makes them evil. I don't know how to explain it, what I was taught was if they are athiest, than they will go to hell, however, if they are agnostic, than they don't go to either place, kind of like limbo, only not for unbaptised babies.
Oh, smb, Yeah, I do go to EoFF, my name there is Black Mage. Incase you were wondering.
I am Nobody
Nobody is Perfect
I am Perfect
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just today, my friend was asking if people believed in God or in science
i wanted to say both, but he said that wasn't an acceptable answer
i dunno which i believe in if not both
it's a tough question
he said he believed in science
i have to believe in BOTH though
God didn't do EVERYTHING, but science didn't do EVERYTHING either
if i HAD to JUST pick ONE...i would pick...hmmm...science? God?... i can't pick
but maybe i did... i said science first
but i need God too
which do you believe in God or science?
_0-/<______________
who wants to buy a skunkle?
_0-/<):________________
Y8FooD...well, you did
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I believe to be clear that I believe in God. I feel science is man's attempt to explain the works of God. Believe it or not, most scientists are very religious, which I find to be surprising. Ah well, did he have some arguement why he believed in Science?
I am Nobody
Nobody is Perfect
I am Perfect
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he's just thinking that he believes in evolution and the planets and creatures being created scientifically
like the gases in formed together with gravity and the chemicals in them caused the sun to burst into flames
and the planets were formed with rocks&junk mashed together by gravity
and the animals coming from the tiniest single-celled organism
_0-/<______________
who wants to buy a skunkle?
_0-/<):________________
Y8FooD...well, you did
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also, you can prove science
you can't prove the existence of God
<even though i DO believe anyway>
_0-/<______________
who wants to buy a skunkle?
_0-/<):________________
Y8FooD...well, you did
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How can you prove science? To do that, you must rely on logic, no? However, logic is a by-product of science. Using logic is just explaining science with science, hence not proving anything. I'd like to see someone explain something without logic. I don't think it's possible. This is why I don't believe that to be a reasonable excuse to believe in science but not God.
I am Nobody
Nobody is Perfect
I am Perfect
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i believe in BOTH
i can't choose one
i don't think that God created us just how we are, i think we evolved from some monkey-man
and i think the earth did some things for itself
i don't see a good reason NOT to believe in God
_0-/<______________
who wants to buy a skunkle?
_0-/<):________________
Y8FooD...well, you did
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Maybe I wasn't being clear enough. I did not mean to say that you only believed in Science. I am aware you believe in both, you had mentioned it in earlier posts. I was only saying in regard to your last post, my feeling on what you said. My apologizes.
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no, what you said WAS clear, i just wanted to make sure that if someone only read this page, they could see that i do believe in both
i suppose you have a point, that the only way to prove a man-made theory is with a man-made theory
but then you have to ask yourself
couldn't God be a man-made theory?
_0-/<______________
who wants to buy a skunkle?
_0-/<):________________
Y8FooD...well, you did
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Sure, it's a possibility. Anyone who has gone through the years where they begin to doubt things they believe has thought about that. However, that is where faith comes in. Basically, thats where it all lies, in your faith.
I am Nobody
Nobody is Perfect
I am Perfect
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amen to that, black mage
amen to that
_0-/<______________
who wants to buy a skunkle?
_0-/<):________________
Y8FooD...well, you did
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Christian. Church of Christ. i was going to actually start a topic about this . . .
Eddy: Ed, stop eating all the cheese!
Ed: Cheese? Swiss?
Eddy: Peperroni. Italian.
Ed: Slicer. Aluminum.
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None! The facts are against religion, you pay to grovel to a non-existant scam, and it's just an overall waste of time.
P.S. is there UBB code here? I'm a n00b.
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im a christian, god rules the universe and theres nothing you can do about it.
GOD RULES!!!!!!!!!
one god, one market, one truth, one consumer........
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I am from a first assembly of God church. I believe in god, heaven and hell, speaking in tungs, and the bible. If you don't ask God to be in your life. When you die, or when the rapture comes, you WILL go to hell. You wold be rotting away in hell. Fire everywhere, and when you die, the same thing will happen all over again. All it takes is just a simle prayer, Dear Jesus, PLease forgive me for my sins, I have done a lot of bad things and i need your forgivness, and Jesus, please come into my life, and please wash away my sins. I love you Jesus. In Jesus name, Amen. See? It's as simple as that! God Rocks! Science stinks!
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i don't really see how a few simple words clean a man's soul
only you can do it for yourself
but i suppose that if your way of cleansing yourself is saying a few words, do it
know your path
follow it
_0-/<______________
who wants to buy a skunkle?
_0-/<):________________
Y8FooD...well, you did
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As I said before, the facts are against religion. And only facts count. If everybody were smart, then there would no relion. But, if everybody had a religion, we would still be cavemen, as the church is against evouloution. Read my previous post. And DonkeyKongFan, that is comical. The "soul" does not exist.
Edited by - Ganbare Saturn on 6/23/2002 8:59:18 PM
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your lost, man. How sad. (seriously) God IS real! Or else, how did jesus turn the water into wine? Or walk on water? If u say,"forget that! God isn't real!" You know what I'm ganna say. Your lost, man. How sad (seriously)
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Facts. What are facts? How do we know them to be a fact indeed? Hmmm? Logic was created by humans. To explain an observation with logic proves nothing. Not everything is at as it seems.
And quite to the contrary, if everyone was smart, there would be religion. However, there wouldn't be wars and murder over it. But that isn't the case, is it? If everyone had religion we'd all be cave men? I don't want to even address this, but I must. Most people do have religion and I live in a house, in my cloths, and right now, I'm on my computer.
"as the church in against religion"
That makes no sense, I'm not going to even dignify that with a response.
And if people don't have souls, than what makes people do good? Why do people do things to help one another. If we dont' have souls, than what makes us different from machines? Without a soul, we're just machines with an outer covering of flesh instead of metal.
I don't mind if you don't believe in God, hell, I don't care if you express your opinion, but when you do it in a derogatory manner, I'm not even going to consider respecting that opinion for a second.
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As I said before, the facts are against religion. And only facts count. If everybody were smart, then there would no relion. But, if everybody had a religion, we would still be cavemen, as the church in against religion. Read my previous post. And DonkeyKongFan, that is comical. The "soul" does not exist.
we have souls. kiss my ass. *****. and there IS a god. *****.
one god, one market, one truth, one consumer........
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Sorry guys. I guese I kindof over reacted about that whole thing. I geuse I can't MAKE you believe in god, but I can try. Let's just get on whith our lifes. BUT, ther IS a God. And he made a living sacrifise that we all may live. I just think that was REALY awesome, and I think you should too.
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I edited my previous post, as the were alot of typos. Donkeykongfan, calm down. Black Mage, Emotions are generated by the mind, not soul, same with logic. The cavemen thing: scientists would be praising, not inventing. (church is against evoulution)
You guys should calm down, it's just a typo. I fixed it.
P.S. he never walked on water or anything, You're just gullible enough to believe that he did.
Edited by - Ganbare Saturn on 6/23/2002 9:10:17 PM
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Well, you're right, we do need to calm down. However, I still disagree with you, but that is to be expected, no?
Granted, the church is against evolution, but that does not mean we would be cavemen. The basis of evolution is that species can gain helpful traits and pass them to their offspring. It is believed that many species could have origionated from a common ancestor. I still have yet to see any real proof that evolution is true. Sure, species can adapt and change, but I don't buy it. But, that would be why it's called the theory of evolution.
Scientists would be spending time praising instead of inventing? I don't see where this is coming from. Many scientists are religious, but that doesn't stop them from working. What you are saying is that people cannot do their jobs while having religion? Or are you saying that people who have religion are not smart enough to be able to do the same thing as agnostic or athiest people? Either way I don't see how it can be true.
Logic is generated from the mind, that is my point. Us humans use logic to explain things around us. Take the pythagrian theorm as an example. The two legs of a triangle squared must equal the hypotenus squared. Why is this true? Logic. Logic is used to explain things, but what if logic is not correct? If logic is dirived from the mind of man, than how can you say it is not flawed? How can we know logic is the truth? My point is, not everything can be explained by logic, and even though somethings can be, we have no way of knowing if it is right.
As for the soul, how can you be sure emotions come from the mind? What I believe is the mind interpurts the emotions for us, but they come from the soul. But, I can't make you believe that nor do I have the intention to do so.
Your edited post does make more sense now, and is somewhat more tactful. I have no problem with you expressing your beliefs, infact I encourage it. This is a debate thread after all.
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Granted, the church is against evolution, but that does not mean we would be cavemen. The basis of evolution is that species can gain helpful traits and pass them to their offspring. It is believed that many species could have origionated from a common ancestor. I still have yet to see any real proof that evolution is true. Sure, species can adapt and change, but I don't buy it. But, that would be why it's called the theory of evolution.
Scientists would be spending time praising instead of inventing? I don't see where this is coming from. Many scientists are religious, but that doesn't stop them from working. What you are saying is that people cannot do their jobs while having religion? Or are you saying that people who have religion are not smart enough to be able to do the same thing as agnostic or athiest people? Either way I don't see how it can be true
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paragraph #1. we would be physically evolved, not mentally.
#2. links to #1.
Edited by - Ganbare Saturn on 6/24/2002 1:13:33 PM
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Would the mind not evolve with the species? It's tough to say, maybe yes maybe no. But from what I can gather, you are saying that the non-religious people have brought us all of the acheivements and technology we have now? I do not believe that to be true. Many people who have made great advances have been religious. It's not to say that all advancements have been caused by religious people for to say one group or the other did everything is blatently false. So, I don't see where your arguement holds up. Saying that just because one is religious they wont be able to 'invent' or further their mind is foolish.
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This topic is still going? It's been for over a year!
Hey, it''s me, the local couch potato, hey look, I found some lint and a quarter...
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Religion is also based on faith. You need the faith to under stand "fully" what our Lord has done for us. Certain people just have diff. views on the way God works. We shouldn't argue over which of our ways are the right one...but instead try to communicate in the numerous religions we have NOW! Meaning...learn about others belifes before judging them. Again, it's all in a matter of faith.
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I realy don`t want to argue, (I will only post in this topic once.) but I agree with donkeykongfan.
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hello! im a christian and i think dkfan is awesome. hes preachin the good news to everybody and yall are all flamin him. all he is doin is sayin wut he believes, and black mage is attacking him. dkfan-i encourage you in your walk w/God. may it be awesome and full of blessings(ya, thats right, a relationship w/God can be awesome!)
blackmage-you are entilted to your own opinion, you think there is no God, i believe you wrong cuz i believe in God (but thats my opinion that i think your wrong) but just plz listen to wut dkfan sez, it could change your life, no, correction, it WILL change your life!!! i pray for everyone that doesnt know Jesus Christ, i hope everyone goes to heaven, but i know that sadly not everyone will. because they chose not to listen to those that were preachin the good news, they chose to do it the hard way and go to hell rather than to listen to wut the Christians hafta say and follow it and not go to hell. im tellin ya, to follow God is so cool! plz just listen to me and take those first steps into christianity. pray to God and ask him to 4give your sin, plz do it. i love you guys!
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oh yeah i also 4got to say, i dont know if this has been covered already but i wanna say that there is proof that there is such a thing as God. although its not real big proof, there is proof. but i dont need proof, i have faith, thats wut christanity is all about!
YAY i got the first post of the new page!
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duke, duke, duke
blackmage believes in God
as for your proof? what is it?
what PROOF is there that there is a God?
what proof is there that jesus walked on water or fed a heck of a lot of people with limited fish and bread?
the proof of the bible?
what if i had some stories claiming i knew some things about God and jesus [which should be pronounced heyzeus, not geezus] that changed a little by everyone that retold my tale until finally four guys write a big book and centuries later everyone follows some goofy religion that i made up in a weekend
is that the kind of proof you had?
what if i have proof that aliens shot a ray up micheal jackson's nose and made it look how it does?
proof...pah
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who wants to buy a skunkle?
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Y8FooD...well, you did
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excerpt from "the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy" [i would have this in italics but this board doesn't have all of the features http://ultnintendo.proboards4.com has]
"...some thinkers have chosen to see [what i'm about to tell you] as a final and clinching proof of the NON-existence of God.
"the argument goes something like this: 'i refuse to prove that i exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith i am nothing.'
"'but,' says Man, 'the babel fish [some creature that they have in the story] is a dead give away, isn't it? it could not have evolved by chance. it proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguements, you don't. QED'[i dunno what QED is..]
"'oh dear,' says God, 'i hadn't thought of that,' and promply vanishes in a puff of logic.
"'oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next pedestrian crossing."
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who wants to buy a skunkle?
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Y8FooD...well, you did
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Is there a Santa Claus?
1) No known species of reindeer can fly. BUT there are 300,000 species of living organisms yet to be classified, and while most of these are insects and germs, this does not COMPLETELY rule out flying reindeer which only Santa has ever seen.
2) There are 2 billion children (persons under 18) in the world. BUT since Santa doesn't appear to handle the Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Buddhist children, that reduces the workload to 15% of the total - 378 million according to Population Reference Bureau. At an average census rate of 3.5 children per household, that's 91.8 million homes. (One presumes there's at least one good child in each.)
3) Santa has 31 hours of Christmas to work with, thanks to the different time zones and the rotation of the earth, assuming he travels east to west (which seems logical). This works out to 822.6 visits per second. This is to say that for each Christian household with good children, Santa has 1/1000th of a second to park, hop out of the sleigh, jump down the chimney, fill the stockings, distribute the remaining presents under the tree, eat whatever snacks have been left, get back up the chimney, get back into the sleigh and move on to the next house. Assuming that each of these 91.8 million stops are evenly distributed around the earth (which, of course, we know to be false but for the purposes of our calculations we will accept), we are now talking about...78 miles per household, a total trip of 75-1/2 million miles, not counting stops to do what most of us must do at least once in 31 hours, plus feeding and etc.
This means that Santa's sleigh is moving at 650 miles per second, 3,000 times the speed of sound. For purposes of comparison, the fastest man- made vehicle on earth, the Ulysses space probe, moves at a poky 27.4 miles per second - a conventional reindeer can run, tops, 15 miles per hour.
4) The payload on the sleigh adds another interesting element. Assuming that each child gets nothing more than a medium-sized Lego set (2 pounds), the sleigh is carrying 321,300 tons, not counting Santa, who is invariably described as overweight. On land, conventional reindeer can pull no more than 300 pounds. Even granting that "flying reindeer" (see point #1) could pull TEN TIMES the normal amount, we cannot do the job with eight, or even nine. We need 214,200 reindeer. This increases the payload - not even counting the weight of the sleigh - to 353,430 tons.
5) 353,000 tons traveling at 650 miles per second creates enormous air resistance - this will heat the reindeer up in the same fashion as spacecraft re-entering the earth's atmosphere. The lead pair of reindeer will absorb 14.3 QUINTILLION joules of energy. Per second. Each. In short, they will burst into flames almost instantaneously, exposing the reindeer behind them, and create deafening sonic booms in their wake. The entire reindeer team will be vaporized within 4.26 thousandths of a second. Santa, meanwhile, will be subjected to centrifugal forces 17,500.06 times greater than gravity. A 250-pound Santa (which seems ludicrously slim) would be pinned to the back of his sleigh by 4,315,015 pounds of force.
6) I asked my parents and they said that they were the ones who gave me the presents.
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La taille de sein n`importe pas. Aussi longtemps que vous n`êtes pas dégoûter gros, et votre face n`est pas laide, vous êtes bon avec moi. A moins que vous planifiez sur le nourrir vos enfants avec votre propre lait, vous n`avez pas besoin des grands seins.
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uh...
the santa clause was just disproved, making their religion of santaclausian stronger because the only way to prove that their god doesn't exist is to prove that their god does exist
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who wants to buy a skunkle?
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Y8FooD...well, you did
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hey frost bite, about that santa thing. dont forget to minus the time for the naugthy children. so lets see if you do that, that takes of millions of hours, cause nobodys perfect for the whole year, heck, nobodys prefect at all! also you hafta minus the time for the children that dont believe in santa, so basically santa just sits around on hif fat tushy and watches tv all year.
p.s. speaking of santa, did n e one ever see that dana carvy skit on s.n.l. were he was dressed up as some sunday school teacher lady and he made the word "santa" look like "satan" by switching around a few letters. that was hysterical!
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Frostbite, that is the most intelligent post I have ever seen on the internet. Bravo! That made for a very interesting read. I have to say I never even sat down and thought about it like that. Very good.
Of course there is the theorie of multiple santas for every continent or country. Or that the elves help out.
But anyway, Santa doesn't exist, we all know that.
And my religion is christian, and my denomination is Methodist.
Pretty funny, eh Mikey? -Legion, Shadowman
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oh sure,
congratulate the guy who disproved santa claus
not the guy who disproved God
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who wants to buy a skunkle?
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Y8FooD...well, you did
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God does exsist.
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I think somebody a while back said that there's no proof that Jesus existed. Well he did. It's been proved by scientists that the guy existed.
Even if you do not believe that he was the son of god, Jesus did walk this earth.
Pretty funny, eh Mikey? -Legion, Shadowman
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i bet he wasn't some light brown haired, white guy though!
[that's how jesus is most often portrayed]
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who wants to buy a skunkle?
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Y8FooD...well, you did
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"blackmage-you are entilted to your own opinion, you think there is no God, i believe you wrong cuz i believe in God (but thats my opinion that i think your wrong)"
...Eh? I guess it's an understandable mistake. Um, well cable cleared it up I guess, so I wont dwell on it.
"...some thinkers have chosen to see [what i'm about to tell you] as a final and clinching proof of the NON-existence of God.
"the argument goes something like this: 'i refuse to prove that i exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith i am nothing.'
"'but,' says Man, 'the babel fish [some creature that they have in the story] is a dead give away, isn't it? it could not have evolved by chance. it proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguements, you don't. QED'[i dunno what QED is..]
"'oh dear,' says God, 'i hadn't thought of that,' and promply vanishes in a puff of logic.
"'oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next pedestrian crossing."
Ah yes, very good book. I've always found it difficult to argue points when taken from those books.Douglas Adams was one smart guy, thats for sure. However, countless times, God has given us proof in one way or another. Whether you believe it was from God is the dependent variable. If you do believe it to be from God, you already have faith, hence underminding the need for the proof. If you do not believe it was from God, then you have no faith to begin with hence not enableing you to even consider the chance. The way I see it, is that without faith, there will be no way for you to believe in God in the living world.
Of course, I could go off on how logic simply cannot be proven, but I've done that before.
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I'm an atheist, I'm too lazy and cynical to believe in any heavenly figures. I didn't even fully believe in Santa Claus when I was a kid, and I was a pretty gullible kid. At the tender age of 8, I thought it was weird that some guy I had never met would wiggle his fat butt down the chimmny just to give me stuff. Ah, good times.
"Like the moon over
the day, my genius and brawn
are lost on these fools."
-Bowser, SMRPG
Sometimes I dream about being carried off by a giant squirrel...Does that make me a nut?
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I didn't read pages 2-8...did I miss anything of interest?
LieutenantEagle
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Gandalf: The Eagles have come! The Eagles have come!
LieutenantEagle: I know. They''re in front of you.
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That's the way, Eagle. Skip to the end and see how many vicious flames broke out. There don't seem to be any.
P.S. I did the same thing.
"Thus Spake Lizard"
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is black mage still here?
if so i would like to continue this debate
if not, s'aright
my favorite quote from our kind and loving and generous and caring God: my wrath will flare up, and i will kill you with the sword. and your own wives will be widows, and your children orphans.
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who wants to buy a skunkle?
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Y8FooD...well, you did
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Ah, he was... but now he's not.
"Thus has it ever been! Thus shall it ever be!"
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Okay...apparently I've been gone WAAAAAAAY too long! Why are we talking about Santa?
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This topic is SCARY!
Anyway, I have proof that God is real because once he let me see the cosmos for a split second. Verily, I say unto thee.
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"is black mage still here?
if so i would like to continue this debate
if not, s'aright"
Yes, yes, I'm around. Just, not real active.
"my favorite quote from our kind and loving and generous and caring God: my wrath will flare up, and i will kill you with the sword. and your own wives will be widows, and your children orphans."
Hmm, that sounds like it's from the Old Testament. I'm no expert on the subject of religion, and can only offer to you what I have learned, rather, can only argue what I know. From my belief, the God of the Old Testament acted much different from that of the New Testament. Now, that's not to say they are two seperate entities, but have changed over time. It's quite noticable, when God had asked Abrihm to sacrifice his own son. However, God had stopped him before he was about to. Or another instance, with King David, to teach David a lesson, his family was killed and he lost quite a bit. However David was given a new family and all that was lost was returned to him upon redeeming himself. Now, that sounds alright for David, but what about his wife and children? Yes, they were killed. I would assume taken to Heaven, but one cannot be sure.
However, in the New Testament, things are different. It seems God has left things to Jesus, and no longer directly required the people to do his wishes. My guess on this difference, is how the Jews of old precieved God differently. In the Old Testament, they feared God, I mean, who wouldn't? They had no one to interpurt the word, save Moses and Abrihm and a few other leaders. But still, no one with the same appeal or strength of word as Jesus. With Jesus, God's love was explained on a higher level. Easier to understand, one could say.
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i really wish i could remember what book that quote was from
something with an "l", maybe...
why does God let so many bad things happen
that's my question
no one can really answer it, but i'd like to hear your opinion
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who wants to buy a skunkle?
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Y8FooD...well, you did
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It's really hard to explain through my point of view. I don't think God ALLOWS bad things to happen, but PEOPLE allow things to happen. Bad things (or good). God knows what's going to happen in our lives, and can prevent them, but it's the people who are blinded by evil, or who just can't see the light that cause the bad things to happen. God just doesn't throw planes out of the skies to kill hundreds....people do that. We are not perfect.
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Indeed, I agree with Lola Prue. Very well said.
I also do not see it as God allowing it to happen, but people. God has given us 'free will.' It allows us to make our own decisions and not to be dictated directly by anyone else. Sure, one solution to all of our problems would be for God to run our lives for us, but would you want that? Personally, I'd rather live my own life, guided by God rather than controled. I think that us humans can find the answers to our own problems, if we look to God. Through our own strength, our own will.
So, I think it's much more of a respect issue. At least, that's how I view it. God respects us enough to let us live our lives without stopping us at our every mistake. (I personally find it annoying when people point out my errors when not asked)
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I agree. It's not God being careless or something, but it's sort of like a parent letting his kid make some mistakes to learn for himself. The problem is, the Human race has made far too many mistakes...
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Indeed we have! Too many to count!
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For those of you who don't believe in God and Creation, etc... There is proof! God does exist! Creation is real! Evolution is fake!
CSE Videos
CSE Mp3s
Edited by - goodie on 2/2/2005 9:16:15 PM
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Yeah, all evolution is is an unproven hypothesis.
I write poetry when I`m not looking.
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Edited by - goodie on 2/2/2005 9:09:19 PM
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My, my... Quite an interesting topic.
I DO love a good argument, though I may regret reviving this thread... I shall post my beliefs later.
Hmm...I wonder where you guys think *I* am in this issue, although probably some of you can figure it out...
I'd like to see how this discussion turns out with new people here...
I actually have a VERY interesting occurence which happened in dealing with this issue... But I won't say anything for a little bit...maybe until someone responds...
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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Well, well, someone finally stumbled upon this topic again. I was wondering how long it would take. ;p
As anyone can read, I've posted my beliefs, countless times, so I'm sure you all know where I stand.
Sapphira, I encourage you, and anyone else, to post their beliefs. Besides, that's what this is, a debate about religion, eh?
Edited by - Black Mage on 5/23/2003 10:24:03 AM
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First of all, I would like to say, yes, I am a Christian. Since March 1994. I am currently non-denominational, and I hate all the segregation. Actually, I think I'm closest to being Northern Baptist, but that's beside the point.
Isn't it interesting how whenever anyone mentions the topic of "God" or "beliefs" or "Jesus," people get squeemish? ...Actually, I feel a bit woozy myself, because I'm putting myself on the line right now.
First of all, I would like to say to all of you skeptics out there, prepare to go down with a fight. I shall prove all of my points later. Until then, hopefully more people will come here. I will accept and challenge any argument against my beliefs.
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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Point 1:
"my favorite quote from our kind and loving and generous and caring God: my wrath will flare up, and i will kill you with the sword. and your own wives will be widows, and your children orphans."
"why does God let so many bad things happen
that's my question. no one can really answer it, but i'd like to hear your opinion" --cable04
Think of it this way: We are bad, disobedient people. God love us TOO much to NOT do anything about it. There are consequenses for our actions, so God allows bad things to happen to us. This is called DISCIPLINE! --which is a GOOD thing (as much as I hate it.) He disciplines us to get us to grow, to teach us not continue our mistakes.
The Israelites disobeyed him, so they got punished. God only wants what's best for us. He gives us the freedom and choice to do what we want, but if we do something wrong, there WILL and SHOULD be consequenses for it. Look at it this way:
A child wants to play in the street. His dad says, "No." The kid gets mad and does it anyway. His dad sees him and punishes him. The kid WANTED to play in the street, but didn't SEE the implications it could have and what a stupid mistake it would be.
His father did, being wiser and looking out for our own safety. The kid could've gotten hit by a car. His dad was just protecting him by not allowing him to play in the strret, so he'd be safe. Disobeidence = punishment. If the dad had NOT punished the kid, what kind of a loving father would he be? He obviously wouldn't care that his son could get seriously hurt, which would actually ENCOURAGE the kid to CONTINUE his stupid desicions.
God is that same way; he's like that father and were like that kid. ...And *I* just wrote a parable. :)
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
Edited by - Sapphira on 5/23/2003 12:53:09 PM
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Oh yeah, sometimes God simply ALLOWS bad things to happen. Another li'l parable:
Mom's cooking in the kitchen. "Billy" says, "Mmm...what is that stuff...Smells SOOO good...
Mom: It's vanilla. You're not gonna like it.
Billy: Yes I will!! Please! Can I have some!?
Mom: You're NOT gonna like it!
Billy: Please, please, please?
Mom: Suit yourself.
*Billy takes a HUGE spoonful. As the liquid touches his toungue, his eyes widen in horror and disguist. He immediately spits it out and tries rubbing the taste from his poor tongue.*
Mom: I told you you wouldn't like it, but you didn't believe me.
That's what faith is. Trust that God knows what's best for you, like the mom did. Though some things may SEEM good, he knows what's NOT. Some people just have to learn it the hard way and suffer unnecessary pain.
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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I feel that your religion doesn't really matter. That it doesn't matter what you believe in, just as long as you believe.
The good- Gamecube
The bad- PS2
The ugly- X Box
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I hate the label "religion." That sounds so rigid and cult-like, IMO. I prefer the term "faith."
I'm on a roll now, so I will continue my arguments.
Point 2:
“I'm an atheist, I'm too lazy and cynical to believe in any heavenly figures.†–Pyrasaur
Fryguy, Sanctus Yago, Ganbare Saturn, bandicootbuddy, Pyrasaur, and any other atheists, I truly feel sorry for you. How could you NOT believe in God?! I have witnessed far too many strange, miraculous incidents to wonder how he could *possibly* NOT exist.
When my brother was born, he was having difficulty breathing properly. They put him in the special care ward (in which this 10 pound 10 ounce kid looked MASSIVE next to all the other babies, whom were mostly premees). Anyway, my dad went over there and noticed my brother’s face was turning blue. The nurses apparently weren’t paying that great of attention. If my dad had not noticed and brought it to the attention of the nurses, my brother may have died. Coincidence? Luck? Or divine intervention?
When my brother was 3, we went to this park. It had the most AWESOME rocket-shaped slide. It was about 20-30 feet high, seriously. Half of it was a closed-in tube, the other half opened. My brother, after going down it several times okay, went down again. But after he exited the tube part, he noticed how high up he was and panicked. He grabbed the sides of the slide to stop himself. This sudden force flipped him over the side of the slide, this 3-year-old now dangling over the edge, 10-15 feet up in the air. I screamed for my dad. He didn’t make it in time. My brother landed in the woodchips below. Luckily, he only fractured his wrist. Had he not have placed his arm out during the fall, he could have died. Luck? Or divine intervention?
Man, angels sure are watching over this kid! A few weeks ago, my brother was at track and field. He was throwing one of those 8-pound metal balls (that didn’t sound right…), kinda like a discus, and went to retrieve it. Meanwhile another kid (one who’s actually…mentally impaired AND malicious), decided to throw a metal ball while my brother’s still in the field. A friend screamed, “Look out!â€
Quickly he ducked. The ball just BARELY grazed past his ear. *1 INCH* closer, and that thing would’ve killed him. Luck? Or divine intervention?
A few years ago (WOW! 4 years already!), my family was going on vacation to Maryland (we lived in Cali at the time.) Our flight was early in the morning, so we’d have get up around 4 AM. That night, my mom had a MAJOR medical problem and almost passed out because of it. Luckily she didn’t, but she said she felt she was starting to. Suffice it to say, we cancelled our flight and vacation. The next day, she was fine again, and has been ever since. Later, we found out that my mom’s best friend (who’s also MY best friend’s mom) had woken up that night around the same time and suddenly felt this REALLY strong intuition that she should pray for my mom. EXACT same time my mom almost passed out. That strange intuition and her prayer may have been what prevented anything serious from happening. If that wasn't God, I don’t know what it POSSIBLY could be. Coincidence? No way. …Wouldn’t it have been freakier still if us not going prevented something bad from happening to us…? We’ll never know.
Last incident.
A few weeks ago, I wrote on a little prayer card in my youth group that I may have found a way to help reach to other people, and I wanted them to pray to help me find a way to do that. Though I was quite vague, I was actually referring to this very board. Yesterday, I stumbled upon this thread. Coincidence? I think not.
Everything happens for a reason. To say there is no God takes more faith to believe than that there IS one.
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
Edited by - Sapphira on 5/23/2003 4:58:53 PM
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Yes, add me to the list of devout aetheists. My problem is that I am too logic-minded to believe in some omniscient being.
Miracle events are best explained by certain undefinable laws of physics. Like, when your brother ducked, this is due to a certain reaction speed. His instinct is partly responisble, as well.
When your brother was first born, his dad, due to a certain paternal instinct, watched over his kid. This slide incident is also due to instinct.
That prayer for your mom is a freaky coincidence. Really freaky, actually. I mean, that's amazing. The thread? Well... most internet message boards have a religion thread. Again, coincidence.
Now, my side of the story: The aetheist's view to religion:
Fallacy #1: If God exists, why does He make individuals who don't believe in Him?
Think about that for a second. I was once religious. I went to CCD (Can't remember what that stands for and what religion that is) until about 6th or 7th grade. All we really did there was play Hangman and recite plays. I deemed it a waste of time. My mom agreed. I stopped going to church some 6 years ago, when my Uncle Joe died in his thirties of Cystic Fibrosis. After that, I just dropped religion. I was, just a few months ago, an agnostic. A few things happened, and voila! I'm now aetheist. I'll leave that to your imaginaton.
Fallacy #2: If there is a God, why does He let bad things happen?
Seriously, there is a deeper side to this. They say God allows bad things to happen because people are naturally sinful. Now, the corilary to this is: Why did God make us bad in the first place? Think about that for a second. If there was a God, and if He did watch over us all, why were we made flawed in the first place?
Fallacy #3: God allows miracles to occur. Why would He ever put us in a position where miracles are necessary, anyways?
This one interests me in a way. I mean, God allows us to wander into a perilous situation. Sometimes He allows these indviduals to live. Sometimes, no. That would mean God would have to see some people's follies and not others. And what about those people who don't even get a chance to live? Babies who die mere hours after birth. Babies who are killed by their parents for being "undesirable"? Babies who are killed before birth by people who kill their mother? Seriously, the ratio of miracles to bad events is just too great for me to believe. That, and I don't witness too many miracles. I can kind of see why you are religious; you've experienced miracles. Me? All I've seen is me not being treated accordng to my sbilities. No miracle there.
Fallacy #4: How was the universe created?
If I recall correctly, The Bible stated the the Earth was made around 4000 BC. However, science has discoved rocks created millions of years ago. Explain. Plus, according to The Bible, the Earth and all its creatures were created in 7 days. However, it is said that many living things came into existance millions of years before the humans began existance (Or, the way I see it, "evolved"). That's just a bit longer than 7 days.
Coralary of Fallacy #4: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Ah yes, this infamous question. An old childhood thought provoker. Actually, I figured it out. It actually asks: Are you a Creationist or an Evolutionist?
If you think the chicken came first, you believe that the chicked was created, most likely by God, and then it layed eggs, and the race of chickens began. Thus, you are a Creationist.
If you think the egg came first (like me), you believe that the chicken evolved from egg-laying reptiles. Thus, the chicken was not created, moreso evolved. Thus, you would be an Evolutionist.
Not an argument, just an interesting point.
There. The four major fallacies I see with religion. I have more minor ones, but those are the big four. I'd like to see some replies. This looks like it is going to be a nice, fun, intelligent discussion. Something I can't have at school. Bleh.
Congratulations! You have just been blessed by the wisdom of Steve.
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Im a nothing.But my god on rs is Zamorak.(rs is an online game)
"One may as well hang for a stolen sheep as for a stolen lamb"
Ankle,Tingle younger brother,The Wind Waker
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I believe the egg came first and am an evolutionist. The evidence for evolution is staggering. (No, humans did NOT evolve from monkeys.)
I am also a non-denominational creationist. Quantum theory is even based on the fact that nothing (including the creation of the universe) happens unless there is a consciousness there to observe it. Despite what Einstein said, I believe that God does in a way play dice with the universe. The idea that God or Truth or unqualified Wholeness would in any way require order or discipline is simply unreasonable and not true. Nothing could ever be, ultimately, more chaotic than God's Will.
The way I see it, religion is based on faith whereas science is based on experimentation.
They are based on totally different ways of viewing the world, so I see neither correlation nor disagreement between the two. You either believe in religion or you don't. We shouldn't try to prove or disprove it because it is not based on proof; science is. That is not to say the science is infallible. Science is evolving.
I believe the Bible and all religious writings are the works of humans even if God may have inspired them. Therefore, I conclude that the Bible is not perfect. The creation story of Adam and Eve to me is another of the Bible's parables and that the age of the Earth is also distorted because of human error or simplicity in the stories.
Life arose as the result of an initial unplanned, chance event, through the hand of science, followed by a deliberate, planned event through the hand of God.
The folling gives a theory that is close to my own.
A QUANTUM GOD? by Quittenton, Richard
· Professor Stephen Hawking closes his famous best seller "A Brief History of Time" with the queries, "why does the universe go to all the bother of existing" and "who created Him (God)". These are by far the most important questions facing humanity because our whole philosophical foundation rests on the answers.
· If the universe exists because of a random accident there can be no ultimate reason for our existence. Thus even if we colonized the entire universe we would only be doing what termites do, expand the colony and propagate the species. We would simply be termites of a higher order.
· We cannot "prove" scientifically whether the universe was created or not, or whether a creating God exists or not. The best we can do is to examine what scientific evidence we have and decide where is the most likely probabilities. Science tells us now that our universe is incredibly fine-tuned. There are some 30 or 40 physical variables governing the make-up of matter, which must be almost exactly what they are now for our universe to exist in its present form. For example, if the force of gravity were only a tiny bit different, the universe would have either collapsed upon itself long ago, or expanded so rapidly that no galaxies could exist. There would only be wisps of radiation hurtling through space. If the speed of light were only a tiny bit different, the sun would be either too hot or too cold for life to exist on Earth. If the forces holding the atoms together were only a tiny bit different there could be no hydrogen or suns, which bring life to the universe. The list goes on.
· Science also tells us that in a truly random creation there is no known reason why all these variables should have the values they have. The probability is that they would be vastly different. It would be as if there were a monstrous slot machine with 30 slots, and with the first and only pull on the lever all 30 variables fell precisely into the right slots with all the right values. The probability of this happening is so low that many cosmologists now believe it is more likely that the universe was not an accident, but must have been created.
· But how could this be? Science believes that primordial space was a vacuum and hence inherently unstable. Then terrestrial quantum mechanics predict that matter can accumulate in this vacuum, and that this matter eventually exploded in a big bang to create the universe through one mechanism or another. These "terrestrial" quantum mechanics exist only because we exist. We have no idea whatsoever what really existed before the big bang. We now enter the area of "possibilities", not probabilities.
· Let us speculate that matter did arise in the vacuum of primordial space, perhaps slowly over infinite eons. Let us speculate also that this matter was some form of energy, in a form we might or might not recognize. We do know already that energy can exist in many, many different forms, thermal energy, kinetic energy, acoustical energy, light energy, electrical energy, radioactive energy, magnetic energy, gravitational energy, and perhaps psychic energy, as well as other forms we have not yet detected. We know too that energy flows readily from one form to another. Thus electrical energy becomes thermal energy when passed through an electrical heating element. Thermal energy becomes kinetic energy when used to boil water to expand steam through a turbine. Kinetic energy regenerates electrical energy when the turbine drives an electrical generator. Finally we know that energy, at least as we know it, and mass are interconvertible, one into the other, through Einstein's famous equation, the equation of the atomic bomb.
· We can speculate therefore that matter accumulated in primordial space in some form of energy, a speculation based on terrestrial quantum mechanics. We can speculate further that this energy slowly clumped together, through some mechanism totally foreign to our knowledge of terrestrial physics. We do know that at the elemental level, life is made up of energy, not proteins or vitamins or whatever, just minuscule packets of energy. We know too that energy, as in the laser, can self organize into a pattern. Some scientists believe also that life arose on Earth through the chance combination of elemental particles. It is not unreasonable therefore to speculate that the clumping energy in primordial space slowly self organized into a life form, a life form of prodigious power, and of a nature totally foreign to our understanding of life. We know this life form as God. This is thus one possible origin of God, for God must have an origin too, as Stephen Hawking most aptly noted.
· But why does the universe exist, as Hawking also asked. If the universe was created, as now appears most probable, it would have been an enormous, monstrous task. The total matter in the universe is so large as to be beyond comprehension. To create this huge amount, and to balance it so finely that it had to permit the emergence of life is far, far beyond human understanding. Clearly the universe does not exist solely for humanity. It is far too big for that. Our own galaxy would have been sufficient. Why the billions of other galaxies? The sheer immensity of this task is so enormous that there must have been a reason of comparable immensity to warrant the effort. One possible reason of such immensity is survival.
· We know that all forms of energy slowly degrade, gradually becoming entropy, the state from which no work can be obtained. Thus hot objects cool, losing thermal energy. Moving objects slow down, losing kinetic energy, and so on. It might be therefore that the energy of God was degrading, even if only ever so slowly, over untold and continuing lengthy eons. If this were the case, God would be slowly dying as God's energy gradually converted into entropy. If this was the situation it is at once obvious, and indeed inevitable, that any such sentient life form with the innate power to create a universe, would evolve some Plan to ensure its survival.
· The end object of any such Plan must be the generation of new energy, energy over and above that invested in the Plan itself. This is critical, otherwise the energy is simply being recycled, and thus is not a net gain to the life form behind the Plan.
· Science accepts antimatter and positive and negative energy. It can be postulated therefore that the Plan required the provision of an environment where positive or negative energy could be produced in some manner that did not involve the conversion of mass into energy, as that would be recycling. This environment might thus permit the evolution of life forms with the ability to generate a pulse of positive or negative energy through some conscious act of will alone, a pulse of psychic energy. The Plan would be completed with the flow of the positive energy to God on the death of the life form.
· We know this positive energy as our soul.
· At death the soul screens itself in effect, going into the great energy pool of God if it is positive enough. Thus it would flow through the cosmos as a part of this pool, part of God. Even now souls from all over the universe must be going into this big pool. Recently new planets have been discovered in space and since there are billions of suns besides ours there must be billions of planets besides ours. It would be the mission of the dominant life form on all such planets to develop a soul. Thus while the energy of a single soul may well be infinitesimal, the collective energy from all the souls across he vast universe, and over the eons the universe will survive must be more than enough to justify the monstrous effort. Otherwise why do it?
· It is clear this effort is relatively recent. Our universe is only some 16 billion years old. What was going on in those untold eons before the emergence of the universe? Why is our universe so young? Evidently the evolution of God and the development of the Plan was a very slow process indeed.
· The human brain has been developing over thousands of years. It was during this ongoing development that the soul must have emerged, as the psychic link with God. It would have emerged as the consequence of the development of free will, the conscious ability to tell right from wrong, good from evil.
· It is the decision to activate free will which generates the psychic energy pulse. During life, thought and actions are all funneled through the brain. These mold the psychic energy, making it more positive with good thoughts and actions and more negative with evil ones. Thus at death the soul, which has stored up this psychic energy, has acquired a definite energy pattern. If this is sufficiently positive, it evidently meshes with the energy pattern of God, and so flows automatically into the energy of God, and so increases this energy pool by the energy content of that soul.
· The need for free will to generate an energy form akin to God is so important for humanity that the event has been handed down in allegorical form, in the story of Adam and Eve, where Eve exercised her free will in the taking of the forbidden fruit.
· It is also evident that in possessing an energy form akin to that of God, man is indeed "Made in the Image of God", a pure energy form. The concept of energy is a very recent one, going back only some 250 years the first steam engine. It would have been utterly meaningless for Moses, or Jesus, or Mohammed to talk about "energy", so they spoke of the Father, in a male-dominated society. It is significant now that God appeared to Abraham and Moses and Paul as fire and light, pure energy forms. So too is the entry of God into those at Pentecost as "Tongues of Fire".
· Thus this may be why Jesus could tell his disciples with confidence, shortly before he was taken away to be crucified, as reported by John: "On that day you will understand that I am IN my Father and you IN me and I IN you".
· It may be that here Jesus was trying to tell them, before anyone had ever heard of anything called "energy", that the Father was a pool of living sentient energy and that He, Jesus was in this pool and that they would be in this pool too.
· As a pure energy form, it is evident that God has no gender. God is neither he, she, nor it. Obviously therefore it is just as fitting for a woman to serve God as a priest as for a man. In fact it is more fitting, since on the average, women offer more psychic energy of the soul than do men, as a glance into the churches, temples and prisons of any nation will confirm. There are more women than men in churches and temples, and more men than women in prisons.
· Thus if the Book of Genesis were being written today, in the knowledge of today, it might begin:
o "In the Beginning, God fixed the Numbers of Creation. God fixed two numbers, the Strong Nuclear Force, and the Weak Nuclear Force, to operate at the smallest level of existence, the level of the nucleus of the atom; and a third Number, the Force of Gravity to operate at the largest level, the level of planets, stars and galaxies. Then God released enough of God's own energy to provide the substance of the universe, in a great fiery explosion. And God watched as the first two Numbers formed this substance into gases which could burn to provide light and heat for eons; and as the third Number formed these gases into burning suns with planets of the right size and distance from these suns, so that life could emerge on these planets. And some of this life evolved and formed a brain that could form fields of energy. God knew that some of these brains would continue to evolve, until they formed an energy field, which contained a soul, with an energy field, which could merge with the great energy field of God, through the passage of the energy of this soul at death into God's field of energy. And this passage was the ultimate objective of God's Plan, for God wanted the energy of souls. God watched this evolution and saw that it was good. Then God rested. God fixed other Numbers of Creation also, but these three numbers are recorded here so that you might understand the simplicity, the wondrous order and the purpose of the Act of Creation by God".
· This then is the Destiny of Humanity, our reason for existence, to develop a soul that can merge with God and flow throughout the cosmos as a living, sentient field, supporting this and other universes unto eternity.
· In summary, this hypothesis states that God arose out of a pool of primordial energy generated in the unstable vacuum of the cosmos by a random quantum fluctuation; and that God then released enough of God's own energy to create the universe with conditions fixed in advance so that life with souls would evolve, with the energy of souls eventually flowing into the energy field of God, to augment this field.
· Thus life is the result of an initial unplanned, chance event, from the hand of science, followed by a deliberate, planned event, from the hand of God.
· In this concept then, there is no gap at all between science and religion, only a solid bridge.
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WOW. I will answer all your questions, Steve, but it will take a while. Being that they're practically essays... I'll answer them one at a time.
"Fallacy #4: How was the universe created?
"If I recall correctly, The Bible stated the the Earth was made around 4000 BC. However, science has discoved rocks created millions of years ago. Explain. Plus, according to The Bible, the Earth and all its creatures were created in 7 days. However, it is said that many living things came into existance millions of years before the humans began existance (Or, the way I see it, "evolved"). That's just a bit longer than 7 days."
The Bible NEVER has said how old the earth is. Only how long HUMANS have been on the earth. People ASSUME that it’s around that old. The Bible says that God created the earth in 6 days (he rested on the 7th), but it ALSO says that to God “a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day.â€
In other words, time is irrelevant to God. He’s not bounded by time. This is how he always existed and always will exist. It is also how he knows everything that ever happened and everything that WILL ever happen. I guess you could say he’s in the 5th dimension (time and space), while we’re in the 3rd. We can NEVER entirely comprehend that, but we CAN believe it. Faith, my friend. For example, a flat, two dimensional drawing is bound by length and width. It cannot even comprehend what depth is, it just has to believe that other things are not bound by it.
So it could’ve actually taken millions and millions of years for the earth to be created. Another thing: science cannot prove evolution, but it HAS proven the order in which things came into existence. In order for a “community†to form, first there is sunlight and water. Then plants are able to grow. Eventually, creatures find the place inhabitable and are able to live there. The oldest fossils are fish and birds. Then animals of the land. Lastly, humans. Those all coincide COMEPLETELY with the order of the “days†God created each on.
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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Yes, I realised there that I butchered the word "Corallary" twice in that last post. Hmmm...
Anyways, there are people in the world (I think they are called "fundamentalists") who believe everything The Bible says literally. I mean, I know that The Bible has some metaphorical things in it you just can't take seriously.
But one must remember: The Bible was not written by God. It was written by another human. They could very well have known about the order of existance. They place this in The Bible in that order... science proves it again, and it looks credible. the person who wrote The Bible was very smart there. Of course, who knows? I might be wrong. I doubt it, though.
Here's another fallacy for you:
Fallacy #5: How exactly do many of the "miraculous" events from the Bible occur, anyways?
Here's a few examples...
In one story, a person is turned intoa a pillar of salt. Let's examine this for a second:
Salt = NaCl (Sodium Chloride)
Humans = Mostly organic compounds (I.E., they contain Carbon)
Now, how does ANY human go from organic coumpounds to entirely Sodium and Chlorine? You know how hard it is to turn Carbon into Chlorine or Sodium? And what about the other by-products of the reaction? It makes no sense.
In another story, Jesus feeds a whole mass of people on 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish (Or was it the other way around?). Now... let's examine this for a second.
Given an average size loaf of bread (Sliced into 20 pieces), and a large (5 pound) fish, and assuming that a "mass" of people is about 1000, This would leave about 1/10th of a slice of bread and 1/100 lb of fish per person. How can you fill someone with 1/10 a slice of bread and 1/100 lb of fish? I just cannot see how this is.
All of these occurences are flat out impossible by the laws of science.
I mean, yes, some of the ideas in relgion are feasible, but there's just too many dubious things I see to believe in God or a religion. I think far too scientifically.
Congratulations! You have just been blessed by the wisdom of Steve.
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Some things NO ONE will understand. That's why he's God and we're not. His knowledge is FAR beyond even the greatest minds to even exist--put together! The Bible also says, "With God, *ALL* things are possible." (I emphasized "all.")
While these miracles are IMPOSSIBLE for PEOPLE to do, God is capable of ANYTHING--and EVERYTHING. Think about it this way.
Every single atom that makes up every little cell that makes every tissue that makes every organ that makes up the human body--how PERFECTLY everything inside our bodies works together--your brain that sends signals to your nerves and veins, allowing your heart to pump blood, the 5 senses. Think of how COMPLEX *EVERYTHING* is! And think of EVERY *SINGLE* being on this planet whom ever existed, every animal, plant...how everything is able to work perfectly.
That animals breath oxygen and give carbon dioxide...that plants are use carbon dioxide and give oxygen... Our planet is PERFECTLY placed from the sun to sustain life... It's AMAZING! How is THAT possible to happen, may I ask? That everything complements itself so eventually it all balances out--"communities" (the environment and all that's in it.)
I mean, HOW likely is THAT?! To say that the creation of the universe was an accident?! "Accidents" can not be so refined and perfect. SOMEONE *HAD* to create it.
If God is capable of ALL THAT, how hard could it POSSIBLY be to turn a person into salt? He formed the universe--every person, every molecule--out of NOTHING--from SCRATCH! Turning water to wine or feeding 5000 is NOTHING compared to that!
I mean, to him, that's like taking water and turning it into ice!
Another question for you:
While it may seem impossible for a human to be transformed into salt, how then is it possible for, say, a soda float to turn into energy our bodies to use in order to function? Sugar turns to starch, etc. until it's become something our cells can use.
It's HIGHLY complex! We are STILL trying to figure out how everything works and why. I don't UNDERSTAND *HOW* my digestive system works, and I don't even *NEED* to know HOW it works. But I DO know that if I eat a soda float, it'll digest and the energy will be used to sustain the functions of my body. That's what faith is.
I know that food transforms into energy for my body to use, so why should it be so hard to believe that a person can transform into salt?
A few hundred years ago, people believed that maggots came from meat. Only until later did they discover they were wrong. Although we are MUCH further along than them, we STILL do not know everything, nor will we ever. Why is it so hard to accept something we cannot comprehend? Just because we can't comprehend it, does that mean it can't possibly be true?
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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Ok here.... *Pulls down large scientificy flipdown chart with chemical and biological principles on it*
How do humans breathe oxygen and use it, and exhale Carbon dioxide?
Well... First, the Oxygen enters our body, were it goes into the bloodstream and binds to the hemoglobin in our red blood cells. Next, it travels throughout the body, where it goes to where it is used for...
The Krebs (? -- I can't remember if this is what its called. I haven't had biology in a year) Cycle. Essentally, this is where the Oxygen in broken up, and bginds with a chemical called adenalyne triphospate (ATP). I'll explain the importance of this compound later. After binding, and through a cyclic sequence of reactions, 2 ATP molecules become I think 37, and the cycle continues with other ATP molecules and oxygen. The major by-product of this is Carbon Dioxide, which is exhaled as a waste product.
Now, about that soda float. This float is broken down, via a sequence of chemical reactions, to the basic sugars and starches, which are broken down again into glucose, one of the major components of the Krebs (?) Cycle. That is where the carbon comes from in the carbon dioxide. (Glucose = C6H12O6) Along with the ATP formed... THAT is how the body maintains energy.
The plants, on the other hand, have radically different energy formation methods. They use something called the Calvin Cycle to turn the CO2 it gets from the air into O2 molecules somewhat like Humans use the Krebs (?) Cycle to turn O2 into CO2.
This occured due to a certain law of science which really hasn't been discovered yet. Because conditions allowed for a certain group of organisms to exist, they did.
And the Earth happens to be the perfect place to support life due to freak chance. Think of how big the universe is. When it expanded, seing how big it is, the laws of chance state that at least one planet MUST be that perfect distance from a star. It's just all probability.
Now, about those miracles. Here's where the chemical chart comes in.
About that person who was turned into salt. Let's view the respective locations of Sodium, Chlorine, and Carbon on the Periodic table.
Carbon in the 2nd period, Group 4A. It has 4 valence electrons and 2 electron shells.
Sodium is in the 3rd period, Group 3A. It has 3 shells and one valence electron.
So, you're telling me that there's some being that's just going to be able to add 5 elcetrons and protons to a person's chemical makeup? And I haven't seen this being?
Chlorine is even less believable. It in the 3rd period, Group 7A. 7 Valence electrons.
So there's a being who can add a whole shell and 3 extra electrons? And 11 protons? And I haven't seen this being.
And I haven't accounted for Other compounds in a human besides Carbon. I can't see the laws of science being bended this blatantly by some being I've never seen.
And the fish and bread facade. It has been proven that matter cannot come from non-matter. You, you're saying fish and bread just kind of come from nowhere? You're saying there's a being that can do all these illogical things?
I'm sorry, and no offense to any religious people out there, but to me, believing in God is like saying that 1+1=3. There's just to much wrong with it to make sense to me.
Congratulations! You have just been blessed by the wisdom of Steve.
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*Shakes head* Sigh...
We can explain how the digestive system works because we've figured it out.
We can explain how breathing works beause we've figured it out.
We can explain how plants convert energy because we've figured it out.
We CAN'T explain these other things because we HAVEN'T been able to figure it out. ...Yet.
a few hundred years ago, we could NOT explain how those three things I mentioned above work because we had NOT FIGURED it out THEN! But then we did. So you're saying that if we HAVEN'T figured something out yet, then it CAN'T POSSIBLY be true?
I'm certainly glad scientists didn't have this attitude, or else we still wouldn't know what we do today.
If we don't understand how the digestive system works, does that mean it doesn't exist? Ha! Then why bother eating!?
If we don't understand how we breathe, does that mean breathing does not exist?
Not only does that sound close-minded, but quite illogical.
Another point. You cannot see HOW oxygen is converted into carbon dioxide, yet you believe that. You have not seen 100 billion dollars, yet you believe it exists. You have never met George Washington, yet you believe he existed. You cannot see how electricity converts into heat, yet you believe it does. You believe all these things in which you cannot see, yet you do not believe in God because you can't see HIM. Please explain this to me.
Here are yet some more interesting "coincidences," as you would say.
My mom suddenly felt this IMMEDIATE need to pray for her friend, so she did. Later, we found out her family was on a ski trip. At the EXACT same time, this friend, while skiing, had a major accident and slammed into a tree. She only had a concussion and a broken leg (I think). Had it not been for my mom's sudden intuition to pray for her, she could have suffered MAJOR injuries, or even been killed. She is now perfectly fine, as is this never happened.
Here is ANOTHER example, this time involving me, and VERY, VERY recent. As you may know, I have been suffering from depression and unknown illnesses. This had been going on for months, which is why had had to drop-pass this school year. Having to repeat my grade and not be in the class I had been in all my life--'04, and not getting to be with my friends at school was even more devastating, only adding to my depression. About a month ago, this huge depressive burden suddenly felt lifted from me. I no longer felt depressed; I no longer felt sick. It wasn't the medicine--that had consistantly not been working. Later I found out that that earlier that VERY WEEK, maybe even DAY, my parents and their small Bible Study group prayed MAJORLY for me--that this depression and sickness would end and I'd feel at peace again. That is exactly what happened. If it weren't for that prayer, and all these other people--friends, family, etc.,--praying for me also, I still may be depressed and ill today.
That's THREE seperate incidents in my life which a miracle happened through PRAYER. *THREE* What are the odds that THREE *FREAKY* miraculous events taking place in *MY* life would be a "Freaky coincidence"?!
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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Well then. I honestly don't understand HOW all these miracles happen to you. I mean, someone prays to something that may not exist, and then something good suddenly happens. I just don't understand that.
And then there's me. I don't think anything really fortunate has happened to me. Yet. Excluding that mathematical knowledge and other basic intelligence, which were not given to me by God, but rather by genetics.
Anyways, Here's the differences between believing all those other things you mentioned and believing in God.
Oxygen-CO2: It's been proven by science. I mean modern scientists are curious about these things, and care for progress unlike back 500 years ago. I've read it in biology texts. Many of them. Everything makes sense to me there. The laws of science are fufilled in every step.
100 billion dollars: I shall prove that $100B exists by induction. First, I prove that one dollar exists by pulling a dollar out of my wallet. Then, I'll prove that k dollars exists. I'll take all the money out of my wallet, and call that k dollars. Then, I'll prove that k+1 dollars exist: I get a dollar from the drawer upstairs and add it to my pile. The induction is complete. k dollars exists, k+1 dollars exists, (k+1)+1 dollars exists, and so on. Eventually you hit 100 billion dollars.
George Washington: There have been so many history texts regarding old George. Of course, there are also many texts regarding God as well. The difference: none of the texts that talk about George Washington show him doing things that defy proven laws of physics/chemistry/biology. As I said before, it is impossible, due to the laws of Chemistry, to turn non-fish into fish. And turning a human into salt is an extremely time-consuming and costly process, not instantaneous like The Bible says. God does things that defy written laws of chemistry. George Washington didn't.
Heat to Electricity: See the O2-CO2 description.
The main reason I don't believe in God is not because I can't see Him, it is because I cannot believe that the things He has supposedly done even can be done. I'd like to see someone pull fish out of midair. I really would. Then I'd believe.
Of course, I really don't have anything to say about those miracles. Really. That's just too amazing to be explained. Almost freaky. I really can't come up with anything that isn't insulting. (Or, actually, I can't come up with anything PERIOD.)
Of course, I don't pray for anything, being aetheist. I really don't have experiences with praying and then having something good happen.
This really has become an intelligent conversation. Yay. I haven't seen too many of those where I live.
Congratulations! You have just been blessed by the wisdom of Steve.
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"Excluding that mathematical knowledge and other basic intelligence, which were not given to me by God, but rather by genetics."
--And how did these genetics come to exist? Freak, random coincidence? You got yours from your parents, your parents from their parents, and so forth until it goes all the way back to the first humans to ever exist. Where, then, did they get THEIR genetics from, if God didn't create them?
"God does things that defy written laws of chemistry. George Washington didn't."
--You can break your own laws if YOU created them. God is not bound by laws of chemistry, physics, etc. because he is the one who wrote them. We only discovered them. Since we are not God, we are bound by these laws.
Think of it this way: We are bound by the laws of gravity because of the magnetic pull of the Earth. But in outer space, these laws go out the window, for space is not bound by this gravitational pull. While we are bound by this law, that doesn't mean EVERYTHING else in a DIFFERENT senario IS bound by it.
Another point. Before 1492, people did not know of the existance of the Americas (or Western World.) Just because they didn't know about it, did that mean it didn't exist? Once they DISCOVERED them, THEN they realized they existed. If you don't know there's a God, that doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Maybe if you search hard enough and have a little faith, you'll realize his existance is real.
"The main reason I don't believe in God is not because I can't see Him, it is because I cannot believe that the things He has supposedly done even can be done. I'd like to see someone pull fish out of midair. I really would. Then I'd believe."
--I believe you just answered your own question as to why God has miracles happen.
"Of course, I don't pray for anything, being aetheist. I really don't have experiences with praying and then having something good happen."
--If you ever had a bit of faith, try it sometime. God ALWAYS answers prayers, although they may not always be the answer you want. Whether he says "yes" or "no" or "wait a while longer," depends if it's truly what's best.
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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Miracles, miracles. I personally believe that most of the miracles in the Bible are parables and not ment to be taken literally. Anyway, I also 'believe' that religion is to be taken on faith and cannot be proven or disproven with science or logic. Having said that I am a creationist and a scienctist, but think that Christian Science is neither Christian nor Science. It's kind of like someone saying that a specific kind of music is the best and then trying to prove it.
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Bleh, so you are saying miracles happen so that the people who see them believe in God? I think I've discoved two reasons why you believe in God and I don't:
1. You think far more abstractly than I do. At least I think this from what I can see. Case in point: You're a great writer, from what I remember... a great artist as well, and you say you are execellent at verbal-type skills. You have the ability to throw out these laws every so often so that you can explain things.
Me? I'm definately a tangible/logical thinker. I think by a strict guideline of laws, thoeries, and personal observations; and when these are conflicted in any way, I defy them. For example, when I read that God can do things that by my standards are impossible, I dismiss Him. I have a brilliant mathematical mind, and math is essentially logic... in a slightly more refined matter. There are really no exceptions to mathematics. Everything has an order. You don't have to deal with creating fish out of nowhere in mathematics.
2. Your experiences involving God have been far more positive than mine. Of course, your experiences with a lot of things have been more positive than mine. Example: You pray to God, something good happens at almost exactly the same time.
I was just like you, back when I was little. Back in 2nd grade, I used to pray that all the other kids would stop making fun of me for no reason. You know what? It only got worse. I gave up: Me, living by my logical laws of everything, saw that something wasn't working, so I merely dropped it. Oddly, after I stopped praying and gave up on God for a while, things actually DID improve little by little. Of course, I'm permanently ruined, but that's of no importance.
The way I think: You do what works for you. If it doesn't work, I stop it and do something ese that DOES work. I've found nothing that's worked for my paticular problem. Religion is included in this list. It is my constant struggles with bad experiences in my life that makes me a pessimist.
I mentioned about the Ten Laws I Live By in another thread. I think reading them may grant you SOME reasoning for why I don't believe in God.
1. Don't trust anyone fully. Maybe family, that's about it. It is said that a true friend stabs you in the front. Of course, not trusting this "friend" results in you not being stabbed at all.
2. The Golden Rule works fine; that is, if you don't know the person in question. If you do, the Platinum Rule takes precedence. This rule states:
"Do unto others as they have done unto you."
3. Everyone has a place in the world. People, in order to be at their fullest potential, should find the thing they are best at and refine it until it becomes useful to others.
4. Murphy's Law applies to everything.
5. Don't judge others by what they like; judge them by what they ARE like. (I typed this one.)
6. Tact is the #1 deterrant to progress. When people today ask for your opinion on something, they are really asking "What do I want to hear from you about it?" Tell people EXACTLY what you think about something.
7. People in the world are classified under three categories: Those with one chance, those with 0 chances, and those with an infinite number of chances. The number of chances you get is directly proportional to the amount of money you have. Other factors play a role, though.
8. Allow you don't realise it, luck plays a role in EVERYTHING. There are no exceptions. It just plays such a small role in certain things that most people don't see it.
9. The importance of your life to others is inversely proportional to the amount to are appreciated for it. For example, teachers get maybe $40,000 a year for radically influencing a child's life, Basketball benchwarmers make 13 times that for doing nothing but sitting on a bench and watching basketball games.
10. The ultimate goal of society is to make everyone equal by making them unequal.
Read those for some hints as to why I am aetheist. Actually, I believe in nothing. I JUST realised that, too. I'm too despondant to believe in anything. Everything lets me down. Including myself.
So yea, Actually, I'm not relgious because the events that have happened to me have made it impossible for me to believe in ANYTHING.
Well, let me make a revision to that statement. I believe in anything that is tangible, as well as anything that's happened and has been proved. I do NOT believe in anything in the future, nor do I believe in current events, or anything that sounds incledulous to me. (Like religion, or the notion that I'll live to be 21.) SO yea.
I'm a real piece of work, aren't I? I've given up on everything. Yay.
Congratulations! You have just been blessed by the wisdom of Steve.
Edited by - Insane Steve on 5/24/2003 10:01:47 PM
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Actually, scratch it. I don't know what I believe in anymore. Depends on what kind of mood I am in, I guess. All I know is that I haven't believed in a relgion for many years.
Congratulations! You have just been blessed by the wisdom of Steve.
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*Bangs head on keyboard* Ouch!
*Sigh*sigh* Why do I feel so alone here... Somebody help me out, here!!
Most things in the Bible ARE to be taken literally. Some, however, are metaphoric, such as the *parables* of Jesus, which are ways to explain something in an easier, more close-to-home way something that is TRUE.
A lot of the metaphoric stuff, if you look CLOSELY, actually is stated somehow that is IS metaphoric.
Other passages, however, have puzzled theologists for centuries as to whether certain parts are to be taken literally or metaphorically or both. Mostly, I'm thinking of the book of Revelation. However, since it's talking about the end times from a vision of John, whom lived in a time WAY before ours, he describes the events the best he can explain them at that time. Some of it might have to be metaphoric in order to explain the future to the people of his time.
One of the things he descibes sounds kinda like a helicopter. I mean, how would YOU descibe a helicopter--this flying, whirring "machinery"? The most advanced transportation they had were chariots and ships. Heck, how could they even define "machine"?
While some things should be seen as metaphoric, that DEFINITELY DOESN'T mean the whole thing is metaphoric. Look at all those prophecies, how many are VERY, VERY specific and came EXACTLY true, the way it said it would.
NOTHING in the Bible can ACTUALLY be PROVEN false. Most of it, in fact atcually HAS BEEN proven true. Examples:
--There ACTUALLY was a person named Jesus. Just recently, an around-2000-year-old tombstone-like thing had engraved on it, "James, brother of Jesus, son of Joseph." The Bible CLEARLY says that Jesus's earthly dad's name was Joseph, and he also had a brother named James. TIME magazine, I believe, who wrote this article said that the odds that those three names in those three family relationships were so thin, that it could only be THE James, THE Jesus, and THE Joseph. Whether or not you believe Jesus is God's Son (or even that God exists), there is NO WAY to deny this person did not walk the earth.
--Pieces of a very ancient, HUGE boat were found buried beneath the top of a mountain. Same EXACT material Noah's Ark was built of, same EXACT mountain the Bible says it landed on when the flood receded. Besides all that, how could a HUGE, Massive boat like that get ALL THE WAY to the TOP of a tall mountain unless the earth was flooded entirely and the boat landed there when the waters drained. Noah's Ark was REAL.
There are MANY, MANY more! So much more, that I can't possibly say them all. If those things actually DID happen, and NOTHING has been PROVEN wrong about the Bible, why shouldn't we believe the rest of it's true, too?
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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I don't think God intends for "Faith" to be based on "Proof". Even if the event about parts of a massive boat on a mountain as described in the Bible are true. It does not prove the existance of a God. If it could be proved that God exists then there would be no believe or faith. Only fact. There may in fact be a God (as I believe), but I he/she/it wants us to make up our own minds instead of he/she/it proving his/her/its existence.
Edited by - Luigison on 5/24/2003 10:39:33 PM
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God uses proofs to get us to think, "If that's true, than maybe THIS whole thing IS true."
While "that" is proven, and "this" is not, because "that" is, through faith we believe "this," too, is true.
...Was that too confusing...?
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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Okay, I will accept "That".
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Heh.
*collapses from explaination-overload, feeling this is futile...*
Gah! My mom told me to go to bed! It's 1:52 in the morning! Well, *I* for one, have church to go to in the morning. :P Oh well, she'll understand that this is for a good cause, whether you guys agree or not.
G'night!
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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Dang. Just missed you guys.
Ah well. Anyway, I have my two cents to put in.
First off, I greatly enjoyed Luigison's post with the article about "Quantum God."
Uhh, Sapphira, what were you exactly before March 1994?
Now, on to my views, in more detail, this time:
Going back a few posts, to Steve's question, "...and if [God] did watch over us all, why were we made flawed in the first place?"
I think it's so we can have discussions like this.
As for the pillar of salt thing, the way I understand it, anything is possible. Anything at all. However, the thing is, most stuff just isn't probable enough to happen. But, say, alter the probabilities just an infinitesimal amount, and someone could turn into a pillar of salt. Plus, who's to say that it was actually salt? It could have been something someone thought was salt. Or someone could have misunderstood the story long ago, before it was written in The Bible.
Same goes with the loaves and fishes. It's simple to me, really. You can reconfigure molecules of any type to create molecules of a different type. They don't come from nowhere; they came from reconfigured air or other insubstantial matter. Air is not non-matter, obviously.
Another quote: "This occurred due to a certain law of science which really hasn't been discovered yet. Because conditions allowed for a certain group of organisms to exist, they did."
This sounds less substantial than the existence of God, in my opinion. The "law of science which really hasn't been discovered yet" could very well be God's will. There are just too many "undiscovered scientific laws" for me to believe that there is not some greater purposeful force at work.
But I have personal experience as well. Once, I was talking about whether God exists or not, and at one point I said something to the effect of "God must be real," and I had reasons for that that I can't think of now. Anyway, I had come to that conclusion. A few seconds later, I was in space, and I could see for galaxies. Then I was back in my own body. Now this sounds freakishly close to the theory of God in the article Luigison posted.
I mean, this guy I knew recently died of cancer. People prayed for him. A lot. All the time. And he was an awesome guy. But he died anyway. And there have been other things. I can understand where you're coming from somewhat from things like these, but they aren't enough to make me denounce God. Nothing is.
I seriously believe that God will do something with your life someday, Steve.
Edited by - Chupperson Weird on 5/24/2003 11:33:14 PM
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Ok, I take the side of Creationism and back up Sapphira's arguments 100%.
I too, have a personal relationship with THE God and have seen miracles of mine own come about due to praying and having faith. Many of which I will post later.
As far as proof goes, I can add a tidbit of info against the age of the Earth. A book called "The Human Genome" (I can't remember the author) did a study on where humans came from. She used our own bodies to determine that the first humans came about 8000 years ago, and that all humans came from that family.
Several groups including Atheists, Evolutionists, and Scientists tried to disprove her findings because the study proved that Evolution and other "theories" did not happen and are false.
The research against this book actually found that after the humans came to be, there was also a point in time that the whole world came down to 3 families. This would be none other than Shem, Ham, and Japheth (Noah's sons).
So this information is mostly hidden from the general public. I do not know exactly all of the details invoving this book. But if you are interested, I reccommend anyone to read it.
Also, regarding the pillar of salt issue,
Salt is a generic word for any combo of any single element with the element Sodium. Also, when a person dies, most of their body turns into one of these salts, but I can't remember which one. Maybe....KCl?
Anyway, I have spoken.
God Bless.
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*Sigh* Thank you! Finally some more people here to help me out! :)
"Uhh, Sapphira, what were you exactly before March 1994?"
--Not a Christian. Here is was most people who call themselves "Christians" misinterpret: You go to church, believe in God, believe in Jesus, and even believe he's God's Son. That does NOT make you a Christian. SATAN and his FOLLOWERS believe all that. Does that make THEM Christians? Of course not. Believing is not what makes you one, ACCEPTING that all that happened is what does and wanting to COMMIT your life to God is what does.
I was born and raised in a Christian household. Believed in God and Jesus and all the aforementioned stuff. I even went to church every Sunday.
But I hadn't ACCEPTED it or COMMITTED myself to God, nor admit that I was a sinful person. In March '94, that is when I finally did, at the age of 7 1/2.
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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Yikes, Insane Steve Versus the world. ;D
Anyway, it seems you guys didn't leave me much to touch on, as you've done it yourselves. However, there was one thing I wanted to mention;
"8. Allow you don't realise it, luck plays a role in EVERYTHING. There are no exceptions. It just plays such a small role in certain things that most people don't see it."
Could you do me a favor, Steve? Thanks. Could you scientifically prove luck for me? I mean, since everything must be proven and such. Otherwise it sounds a lot like God, don't you think? Let me expand on this;
Although you may not realize it, God plays a role in everything. No exceptions. While he may play a large role in some people's lives, he may play a smaller role in others. This may be due to the fact that these people are not letting him. And so, people may not notice him.
Sounds awfully similar, huh? How can you believe in one and deny the other?
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Good point! Kudos to Black Mage! ;)
1. Don't trust anyone fully. Maybe family, that's about it. It is said that a true friend stabs you in the front. Of course, not trusting this "friend" results in you not being stabbed at all.
--It also allows you to not have any true friends. A back-stabber (er..."front"-stabber) was NEVER your friend. A bad friend tells you what you want to hear, even if you're wrong. A GOOD and TRUE friend speaks the truth in love, and WANTS to help you get it right.
2. The Golden Rule works fine; that is, if you don't know the person in question. If you do, the Platinum Rule takes precedence. This rule states:
"Do unto others as they have done unto you."
--With that attitude, you're just as bad as them. Have you ever actually TRIED the Golden Rule? The results are surprising.
3. Everyone has a place in the world. People, in order to be at their fullest potential, should find the thing they are best at and refine it until it becomes useful to others.
--I actually agree with you on this one.
4. Murphy's Law applies to everything.
--With that attitude, I'm sure it will. But that's because your undying pessimism only allows you to SEE the worst in every scenario, while most things DO have some good light to them, though some may be disguised quite well.
But what about when something GOOD *DOES* happen? Breaks the Law of Murphy, now, doesn't it?
Very rarely is there a situation in which the worse DOES happen. If you think about it, FAR worse of a thing could have happened.
Example: 9/11/01. Terrorist attacks. THIS is the WORST that could've happened:
--The first plane could have crashed a lot lower in the tower, trapping and killing all the people above. Instead, it hit much higher, killing giving most of the people a chance to escape.
--The time between the first and second crash could've been closer together. Instead, while the plane DID crash lower, it gave enough time for most of the people in the second tower to evacuate.
--The towers fell STRAIGHT down from their spot. They could have fallen in another direction, destroying MUCH, MUCH more in the process.
--The 4th plane which crashed in Pennsylvania. The plane WAS heading toward D.C., which is assumed to be a planned attack on our Nation's Capitol. Instead, the people on the plane figured out what was going on and were able to stop them. They DID lose their lives, but they were also heroes. The plane crashed in a remote area. It could have been a major populated area. THOUSANDS of more lives could have been lost, had it crashed in a populated area or continued its destination to DC.
While a TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE disaster occurred, by FAR it could have been MUCH, MUCH worse.
5. Don't judge others by what they like; judge them by what they ARE like. (I typed this one.)
--Again, I agree with this one. But hate the sin, not the person.
6. Tact is the #1 deterrant to progress. When people today ask for your opinion on something, they are really asking "What do I want to hear from you about it?" Tell people EXACTLY what you think about something.
--Again, I agree. Some situations you have to weave your way around, or you COULD get into serious, unnecessary trouble.
7. People in the world are classified under three categories: Those with one chance, those with 0 chances, and those with an infinite number of chances. The number of chances you get is directly proportional to the amount of money you have. Other factors play a role, though.
--Untrue. While some seem to be "luckier" than others, everybody ALWAYS gets at least one chance, in fact more. God ALWAYS gives us a chance. Whether we chose to ignore it or accept it is our own doing.
Black Mage already pointed out #8.
9. The importance of your life to others is inversely proportional to the amount to are appreciated for it. For example, teachers get maybe $40,000 a year for radically influencing a child's life, Basketball benchwarmers make 13 times that for doing nothing but sitting on a bench and watching basketball games.
--'Tis a twisted society we live in, no?
10. The ultimate goal of society is to make everyone equal by making them unequal.
--A little extreme, there. I see your point, though. By treating everyone equally does NOT make it equal. Fairness and equality are essntially opposites. Everyone is different, so trying to make us all the same would be unfair and unequal.
Example: Let's say there's a family with three grown children. One is in a serious financial crisis because of someone else's evil, manipulative doing.
EQUALNESS would be helping the one kid in crisis by giving them some money. Then, in order to make it "Equal," they would give the same amount of money to the other kids who are not in financial need. While that is EQUAL, it is not FAIR.
FAIRNESS would be giving the kid who needs money in their time of need, while leaving the other two out of it. FAIRNESS would be that the parents would help out the other kids if THEY ever got into that situation. It would NOT be fair, however, if the parents were never willing to help the other 2 out if they were in a crisis.
Example 2: Billy and Sally both got A's on their report cards. Mom gives them each a reward.
EQUALNESS: Both get to go to the shooting range. Did same rewardable thing, so they get the same reward. Billy LOVES to go to the shooting range. For Sally, it's more of a punishment. Equal, but not fair.
FAIRNESS: Billy gets to go to the shooting range, since he loves it. Sally gets to have a new video game, because that's what SHE loves. Not equal, but fair. (BTW, those examples are something my brother and I would chose as our "reward" for something. :) )
And THAT took me 50 minutes to explain.
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
Edited by - Sapphira on 5/25/2003 11:25:34 AM
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Hello, everyone. I'm finally posting in this topic. There is one reason I'm doing so: to let you know the truth of my beliefs. I don't want to hide it from you.
Time will not allow me to get into long discussions of the types you've been having. I have not read most of what you've said. That's why I said that my reason for posting here is simply to tell you what I believe—I don't have time to put evidence behind it all. And I apologize to you for that.
To put it simply, I am a Christian. I have faith in one God. That God is the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. He is each of them distinctly and all of them as one. Each of them is God. I have no difficultly believing in this concept—which in many ways makes little sense to humans' incapable minds—because God is all-powerful. He can do anything—anything—except sin. So my ability to understand it has no bearing on whether or not God can do (or be) it.
Another important part of my beliefs is that I'm saved by faith in Jesus. I cannot justify myself before God by behaving well or by doing good deeds. God came to Earth in the human form of Jesus to help us because we cannot help ourselves. I am made righteous through Him, not by my own strength. It is still important for me to resist temptation and to do the right things, but not for the purpose of making God pleased with me. I don't do good works on my own but with the help of the Holy Spirit living within me. Everything in my life should always go back to God; it's about Him, not about me.
Thus, the meaning of life is for me to become more like Jesus Christ. God created us to be like Him in the first place and to have a personal relationship with Him. When this life is over, people will end up in either a good or a bad eternity, depending on their relationship with Him. And that eternity is all about God. Heaven is not just a bunch of pleasure and good feelings but an intimate, perfect union with God. Hell, on the other hand, is complete separation from Him. Happiness in this life, even for those who don't know God, comes from Him.
Well, I said more than I was planning to, but this is a pretty important topic. What I said disagrees with differing ideas presented in here, of course—I do not tolerate all of those other beliefs and opinions, but respect them. I'd appreciate it if you do the same for me.
Again, I give you my apology for not having time to go into this further.
Lizard Dude’s sig is still my favorite.
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Wooooooo!! Go Watoad! ;) Couldn't have said that better, myself. Of course, right now, I haven't really even GOTTEN into that discussion--I'm just trying to prove to everyone that God exists, which most people actually DO believe.
Having said, that, I have another question for you, Steve. You believe in Murphy's Law, yet you have no solid PROOF that it's true. You have seen evidences that this theory is real, yet you have no proof. You still believe it. Why can you believe in that but not in God? I thought you said you only beleived in things that can be proved. God can FAR be more proved of existance than the theories of Murphy's Law. Forgive me, but that seems rather illogical and even contradicting to your own beliefs.
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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"I seriously believe that God will do something with your life someday, Steve."
Yes. End it prematurely. I already know THAT much.
Erg, time to explain what each of the 10 rules explains, in more detail, and to try and rebutt your points on each.
1: Amazing how, by your definitions, I've never had a "true" friend, they way you've put it. I wonder why? Maybe because I've not met anyone who is true friend material? That is, someone who CAN be trusted? I'm VERY close to disproving this one. I know of one person who I've known since 2nd grade (The only good thing to happen that year) who it seems would never try to metaphorically stab me. There's always that off-chance, though...
Point being: It's impossible for me, as a person, to trust other people simply because of the way other people have treated me.
2: Ok, imagine this situation, from my point of view, that actually happened recently.
There is this kid in my band who plays trombone. He is a terrible player, and I don't like him... mainly because he makes fun of me just about every chance he gets. I personally think he got a terrible lot in life... he isn't bright, or athletic, or sociable, or good-looking, plus he has major family problems and he is somewhat addicted to drugs. I'd feel sorry for him if he didn't insult me. One day after band he walks up to me and asks, after all these insults:
"Steve, can I have a dollar? I need to buy drugs."
Now, in my mind, I know this person. The PR took precidence, and seeing how he's treated me so poorly ever since I knew him, I declined. (I don't know if he REALLY wanted drugs, though) Naturally following the PR himself, he mocks me by saying something along the lines of mocking the way I walk. In fact, it looked a lot like the way I really DO walk (I walk differently from most people. I hardly bend my knees, if at all) so i wasn't offended.
So you'd give him the dollar? I mean, the Golden Rule says that if you were in his situation, you'd like the dollar. After all those years of insult? In my mind, people don't change much. The Platinum Rule, from my standpoint, is more practical. of course, if I don't know someone, I definately treat them the way I'd like to be treated.
3: Well, we're in agreement here. Moving on...
4: Ok, I worded that one too simply. It was late. I meant for that comment to in essence state that one should always expect the worst. This is how my mind works:
I expect the worst to occur for every situation. Let's say the worst does occur. I'm not surprised at all, nor am I disappointed. I'm practically neutral. Now, let's say something ELSE happens. (Yea, right.) Then, I am plesantly surprised. I'm actually in a good mood for some 4 seconds.
Now, take the case of the eternal optimist (I.E., The class of '05 in my school). Let's say something good happens. This person is not surprised. (S)he is pleased... but not as much as you think because there is no element of surprise involved.
But what if the worst happens? The optimist, expecting the best, is devastated, almost ruined. (S)he expected good and didn't get it.
Of course, with me, bad things happen enough to expect the worst case scenario every time. It's hard for me to think positively. It just is. I also don't see the positive.
5: Hate the sin? No, that person will do more bad. Of course, this goes along with my other mostly-negative views on everything.
6: We're in agreeal again. Yay.
7: Everyone, eh? Heh... How about that premature crack baby who dies 10 minutes after he is born? You CAN'T tell me that child had any chance. Or the person who is wrongly convicted of a crime, and thrown in jail for life? Does THIS person have a chance?
8: Bleh, interesting. I may believe in God, or at least something like God that isn't actually God, and might not even realise it. Still... I may believe in the principles of God, but not the individual. Still, chance, which is, I think, the same thing as God according to you all, plays a role in everything.
9: Yes. And the sad thing is, we can't even fix it.
10: Yes. I am an extreme person, though. I believe in extremist values.
Still, after all this, I think I'm offically switching back to agnostic. I'm not going to fully go from saying God doesn't exist to God exists in a few minutes, yet after reading all this, I can kind of see some supernatural forces playing some role in life. Hard to say, though.
And as for the afterlife? Pffffft. Nonsense. I think when you die, it's kind of like sitting there in a world of emptiness for eternity. Again, this is due to my strict logical view of everything.
As for contradicting of my own beliefs, as I said before, I'm not even sure if I can truly believe in anything anymore. Not even myself.
Technically, a salt is any combination of a Group 1A Alkali Earth Metal and a Group 7A Halogen. But, when someone refers to "salt", 99.9% of the time they are referring to NaCl.
Yes, I DO know that Jesus is, indeed, an actual person. I've read it, it has been proven. I have also read that it's been proven that many things Jesus supposedly did actually did NOT happen.
And most propecies are so vague they are bound to come true: in fatc, I'll make one now...
Tomorrow, you will see someone whose first name contains the letter e.
Meh, that's all I'm saying for now. You all have very partially convinced me of some things, but not a lot of them. That's "progress", in your eyes. I think.
Congratulations! You have just been blessed by the wisdom of Steve.
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I think I'll try to keep this short.
"Amazing how, by your definitions, I've never had a "true" friend, they way you've put it. I wonder why? Maybe because I've not met anyone who is true friend material? That is, someone who CAN be trusted? I'm VERY close to disproving this one. I know of one person who I've known since 2nd grade (The only good thing to happen that year) who it seems would never try to metaphorically stab me. There's always that off-chance, though..."
True friends are a dime a dozen, my friend. However, the fact that you may not have a true friend may be that you're not letting yourself. That is to say, by not trusting anyone, save your family, how can you expect them to get close enough to be your friend? The way I see it, friendship IS trust.
"So you'd give him the dollar? I mean, the Golden Rule says that if you were in his situation, you'd like the dollar. After all those years of insult? In my mind, people don't change much. The Platinum Rule, from my standpoint, is more practical. of course, if I don't know someone, I definately treat them the way I'd like to be treated."
To be completely honest, I probably wouldn't have given him the dollar. However, that's because I'm a jerk, and am not as I should be. However, had you given him the dollar, isn't there the off chance that he'd see you in a different light? Treat you different, maybe? Even slightly. By doing what you wish others do to you, you're giving them a reason to not do what they do. Still with me?
"I expect the worst to occur for every situation. Let's say the worst does occur. I'm not surprised at all, nor am I disappointed. I'm practically neutral. Now, let's say something ELSE happens. (Yea, right.) Then, I am plesantly surprised. I'm actually in a good mood for some 4 seconds.
Now, take the case of the eternal optimist (I.E., The class of '05 in my school). Let's say something good happens. This person is not surprised. (S)he is pleased... but not as much as you think because there is no element of surprise involved.
But what if the worst happens? The optimist, expecting the best, is devastated, almost ruined. (S)he expected good and didn't get it.
Of course, with me, bad things happen enough to expect the worst case scenario every time. It's hard for me to think positively. It just is. I also don't see the positive."
Ah yes, believe it or not, I've toiled with such thoughts as well. However, I've come to believe that the destination is not always as important as the journey, if you follow my meaning. While taking the pessimistic view, while waiting for whatever it is to happen, you're still unhappy, waiting for the worst to happen.
However, the optimist waits contently, and even if the best doesn't happen, they didn't stay with the depressing wait. I'm a bit vague, but I'm sure you can follow my meaning.
"5: Hate the sin? No, that person will do more bad. Of course, this goes along with my other mostly-negative views on everything."
You're right on this one. You don't need to like everyone. However, you must realize you're not that different from them either, in a manner of speaking. Hating that person, say, for insulting you and then going out and insulting another is hypocrisy. I'm not saying you do that, but what I am saying is if you hate one for something, you'd better not go out and be doing the same.
"7: Everyone, eh? Heh... How about that premature crack baby who dies 10 minutes after he is born? You CAN'T tell me that child had any chance. Or the person who is wrongly convicted of a crime, and thrown in jail for life? Does THIS person have a chance?"
All I can tell you is that there is a reason for everything. I don't know what they are, but they're there. I was taught babies who die go to a place just for them, limbo, I believe it was called; yet I don't believe that. I believe they go directly to be with God, despite original sin.
As for the fellow thrown in jail, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe they're being tested. I'd only hope their faith could pull through.
"8: Bleh, interesting. I may believe in God, or at least something like God that isn't actually God, and might not even realise it. Still... I may believe in the principles of God, but not the individual. Still, chance, which is, I think, the same thing as God according to you all, plays a role in everything."
You've got to start somewhere.
"9: Yes. And the sad thing is, we can't even fix it."
Indeed, we can't. Yet, we can make it better, if even by a little bit, eh?
"10: Yes. I am an extreme person, though. I believe in extremist values."
Nothing wrong with that. That is, as long as you keep things in check. Looking at the big picture, and who it effects is something you may need to look into, with having extremist beliefs.
"And as for the afterlife? Pffffft. Nonsense. I think when you die, it's kind of like sitting there in a world of emptiness for eternity. Again, this is due to my strict logical view of everything."
Ah, this is something I've brought up much earlier in this topic, had any of you read it. Logic, now this is why I have a hard time basing my beliefs around it. Logic is derived from man, correct? It's man's way of explaining things. Such as finding a third leg to a triangle by using the Pythagorean Theorem. However, as we know, man is flawed. How can logic not be flawed knowing it derived from man? Why does an unknown side of a triangle have to equal a to the second power + b to the second power or the variations to it depending on which side? Why is a flat line 180 degrees? How do we know? How can you prove that without using logic? Besides, proving that logic is correct, using logic would be like defining the word Happy as "Happy." You simply can't prove it, logically, without using logic. And so, logic couldn't begin to explain something we, as humans, can't comprehend.
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1. Point being: It's impossible for me, as a person, to trust other people simply because of the way other people have treated me.
--I can understand that. But if you see that everyone will someday "stab" you, you're setting yourself up to not having any friends at all. Though these "true" friends can be rare and hard to find, they DO exist. Don't be shocked, though; these friends WILL make mistakes and diappoint you--they're only human afterall. That's where YOU, being a friend, also, help THEM out and speak the truth in love to get them back on track.
2. So you'd give him the dollar? I mean, the Golden Rule says that if you were in his situation, you'd like the dollar. After all those years of insult? In my mind, people don't change much. The Platinum Rule, from my standpoint, is more practical. of course, if I don't know someone, I definately treat them the way I'd like to be treated.
--Yes, but the Golden Rule means that if someone does something BAD to you, don't do something BAD in RETURN. Giving him the dollar would be no better; both of you'd be doing wrong. However, that doesn't justify that you can be an ultimate jerk to him; that's what he did to you, afterall. Either of those reactions ENCOURAGE him to continue in his wrong ways, plus YOU did something wrong, too. The RIGHT decision would be to politely decline (or maybe even explain to him what he's doing wrong, but that could get you into unnecessary trouble.
The Golden Rule, in other words, means this.
--If someone insults you, don't insult him back.
--If someone hurts you, don't hurt him back.
Basically, don't belive in revenge. If you argue with an idiot, that make YOU an idiot, also. Prove you're better than that person by not sinking to their level. Though you have to be VERY tolerating, eventually, it's been proven that they'll leave you alone. People bug others JUST to get their reaction. Seeing that reaction is FUN, and when you react, you're doing EXACTLY what they want. If you DIDN'T react, they'd lose the desire to bug you. Eventually the'll stop altogether, bacuase it's not fun anymore. This has been PROVEN to work. Works for me and everyone I know who has.
Since I'm human, this is my biggest area of hypocrisy. These rules, for some reason ALWAYS go out the window with my brother ; I CAN'T, somehow, apply this to dealing with him. That's why our realtionship is so disfunctional. I DO apply this rule to everyone else, though, like at school, and it DOES work.
4. Now, take the case of the eternal optimist (I.E., The class of '05 in my school). Let's say something good happens. This person is not surprised. (S)he is pleased... but not as much as you think because there is no element of surprise involved.
But what if the worst happens? The optimist, expecting the best, is devastated, almost ruined. (S)he expected good and didn't get it.
--The problem with that is DON'T EXPECT ANYTHING! You don't know what your future's gonna be like, so how can you EXPECT anything? You should always be prepared for the worse, so it doesn't devastate you, yet you should also be prepared for the best, for that, too, is just as likely to happen. Most things lie somewhere in the middle.
5: Hate the sin? No, that person will do more bad. Of course, this goes along with my other mostly-negative views on everything.
--NEVER actually HATE the actual person. That's calling God's creation bad, which it's not. SIN is what damaged that person from being perfect. Sin damages ALL of us from being perfect. If you HATE a person for something they did wrong, essentially, you're saying you hate yourself. You are JUST as guilty of sin as that person. Theirs may be "worse" and they may do it more often, but that's irrelevant. You sinned, so you're just as bad as that person.
God doesn't HATE people, he hates the sin. This is why he's able to forgive us if we repent. If he hated US, he would not, and we'd be lost forever. Frankly, I'm GLAD he loves us, or else their would be no hope for this world.
7: Everyone, eh? Heh... How about that premature crack baby who dies 10 minutes after he is born? You CAN'T tell me that child had any chance. Or the person who is wrongly convicted of a crime, and thrown in jail for life? Does THIS person have a chance?
--Sadly, this world is a sinful, injust place which we're stuck in. This is another reason why bad things happen to good people. God has given us the freewill to do what we want, and those who chose to be evil affect us, too, even though we do not deserve it.
While the chances are slim and unfair for people just as you described, they do have A CHANCE. Maybe not on this earth, but in the afterlife. (Yes, I know you do not believe in it, but just listen). That baby never had a chance, but since they never had the chance to sin and reach the age of understanding right and wrong, (s)he is now in heaven, the most perfect wonderful place for all eternity! And they don't even have to experience the sorrow of sins they've done, for they never got the chance to sin.
--A person who is wrongly convicted may not seem like he has a chance. Sadly, this world is not perfect, so injustice will happen. Even if NO ONE else gives this man a chance, God will. If that man accepts the Lord as his savior, his sins (which God knows the ones he did and didn't, while we cannot) will be forgiven, and when he dies he'll be in eternal paradise.
That, my friend, is certainly a chance. Whether or not we choose to accept that chance is our desicion, but we did--and do--HAVE the chance.
I don't have much to say on the other points.
"I have also read that it's been proven that many things Jesus supposedly did actually did NOT happen."
--Please, enlighten me.
As for the prophecies thing, I will answer that in just a minute.
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
Edited by - Sapphira on 5/25/2003 7:14:08 PM
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"And most propecies are so vague they are bound to come true: in fatc, I'll make one now...
Tomorrow, you will see someone whose first name contains the letter e."
Hmm... Let me show you one of these "vague" prophecies:
“He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and with familiar suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
“Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions [wrongdoings], he was crushed for our iniquities [wickedness]; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, by his wounds we are healed. We, like all sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way, and the LORD has laid on him the [wickedness] of us all.
“He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter…By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendents? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
“Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days [will live forever], and the LORD will prosper in his hand.â€
Isaiah 53: 2-10
Sounds lot like Jesus, huh? I don’t know about you, but that certainly doesn’t sound VAGUE to me. And this was written many HUNDREDS of years BEFORE he was even BORN (somewhere from 600-800 years.) There are HUNDREDS of more prophecies just as descriptive, some having nothing to do with Jesus, but other events that would (and DID) happen.
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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Going back a bit, that's something I was going to mention: freewill. That's really the key to everything, bad and good. I think that was self-explanatory.
I only have two friends, as I've said before. One is a guy I've known ever since I can remember, and my other friend is the girl I love dearly, and have known her also for as long as I can remember. (Yeah, Steve, you know about her already.) No other people are my true friends, and I don't truly trust anyone else, not even my family. Perhaps my mother, but that's it.
Also, regarding the "afterlife," quite frankly, I'm afraid to die. I'd much rather wait and live until the day of judgment. But, I mean, what can I say about this? I have my theories about "paradise*," but I'd much rather stay in this plain of existence for as long as I can. I don't want to have the things I love be forgotten or disregarded after a long time. Especially stuff like... Nintendo games. What can I say? It's not so much for preservation of myself as it is my desire to preserve things I like so people can like them in the future. But that's all for some other topic, some other time.
*Jesus called it paradise, I'm pretty sure. I don't know if he always called it that, though, but I like it better than "heaven." Heaven just means the sky and stuff. But if the article Luigison posted proves to be true, it would be heaven, now wouldn't it?
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"Also, regarding the "afterlife," quite frankly, I'm afraid to die. I'd much rather wait and live until the day of judgment. But, I mean, what can I say about this? I have my theories about "paradise*," but I'd much rather stay in this plain of existence for as long as I can. I don't want to have the things I love be forgotten or disregarded after a long time. Especially stuff like... Nintendo games. What can I say? It's not so much for preservation of myself as it is my desire to preserve things I like so people can like them in the future. But that's all for some other topic, some other time."
I agree with you. I don't want to die. There's too many things in this world that I like or am looking forward to. The idea of my life suddenly ending is terrifying. But luckily, I know what's gonna happen when I die. I don't dread what happens AFTER I die; I dread actually DYING. Frankly, life is too valuable to me for it to end. But I *AM* looking foward to heaven--which ISN'T sitting around playing harps in the clouds, but PARADISE--PERFECTION! NOTHING BAD CAN EVER HAPPEN, *INCLUDING* BOREDOM!
Personally, I say, give me at LEAST 5 more years. I admit, I'll miss my precious Nintendo games, too... THEN I hope the rapture occurs, so I won't actually have to die...
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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I too, am afraid of dying but not being dead, I would rather be raptured up to heaven beforehand. And since some people are not sure about the afterlife, wouldn't you rather be safe than sorry?
I mean, many religions do NOT guarantee you will go to Heaven when you die, and some do not believe in Hell and that everyone goes to Heaven. Well , wouldn't you rather be safe by becoming a Christian and evading Hell than to be atheist/agnostic and possibly find out that it does exist and that the Christians were right?
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Heres an interesting perspective of the afterlife:
http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv
Based on Dante's Inferno. Do I even HAVE to tell you where in hell I'm going when I die? Of course not.... you are all smart people. I think.
Congratulations! You have just been blessed by the wisdom of Steve.
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You don't HAVE to go to there when you die, you know. It's not like you have to EARN your way to heaven, which is, sadly, what most people think. People don't go to heaven because thy're GOOD, they go because they're FORGIVEN.
No one's done anything so bad that God won't forgive them. All you have to do is ASK. I don't know WHY that's such a hard concept for people to grasp.
BTW, if anyone has any questions but is too afraid to say anything here, feel free to email me. :)
(Oh yeah, and according to that test, Steve, I've made it to Purgatory, aka on the way to Heaven.)
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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In response to a post a few pages back, you can still believe in BOTH evolution and God. I am a Catholic, and I'm probably not supposed to believe this, but what if God controls evolution and inserted the human soul into monkey/people when He thought they were ready enough to believe in Him?
just an idea...
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Ya, but for Evolution to be a fact, it has to be a reocuring process. Now what I mean is that you would see everything from an embryo to a fella with a tail. now I personally dont know anybody that matches that description, therefore it is not fact, but fiction........
It‘s-a me, Marionut#1!
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fella with a tail? What the? They died out because Homo Sapiens was superior. Anyone heard of Neanderthal or Cro Magnon? Evolutionary steps can die out, Marionut#1, leaving less and more advanced stages of life together with nothing in between.
“I’m a stupid fatty and I love to play with my Easy Bake oven!â€
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There are different *TYPES* of evolution. One is the insane monkey-turn-into-humans view, where it's believe that one creature turned into another over time. One question: WHY DO WE STILL HAVE MONKEYS!!? Also, you don't see any freak in-between creatures.
There *IS* a different view of evolution. Evolution acutally means "growing and changing--for the better." This is less crazy. It's saying that over time, humans have changed physically (maybe mentally, but our knowledge is rapidly increasing, so that's only natural).
If you look at some of the early skeletal remains of people, mankind HAS changed. But think about it: we're adaptable. Wouldn't it make sense that we adapt as our environment changes? Not to mention, genetics. Certain "ethnic" groups have been completely wiped out over the course of time. Some, barely any history is recorded of them. They died out--genetic traits: gone.
Plus, in ancient times people tried to keep marriage and gene pools within their ethnicity. You can only go so far before it's inbreeding (in the past, it was okay to marry your cousin, etc.) That's bound to cause some genetic alterations. Although Darwin said this, it's true: "survival of the fittest". The unhealthy children died, thus "improving" humanity. (Please note that I'm using these terms *VERY* loosely.)
Then, there was inter-racial marriages, changing genes again, and basically it's been a mix-match.
While I don't believe in "evolution"-evolution, I do believe in change of things over time. Notice how people in different regions of the world have a certain "appearance" to them? Those who live near the equater, their skin, hair and eyes tend to be darker. Closer to the poles, like Northern Europe, people tend to have lighter tones of everything. It kind of fits the climates, like humans have adapted to that region over a LOOOONG period of time. That's my guess of how races formed. Then intermixing, etc.
It's all a matter of genetics, and besides, nutrition can also affect people in that way.
That's the most logical explanation I can think of for "evolution vs. creation."
I'm tired, now...
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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WHY DO WE STILL HAVE MONKEYS!!?
Although Humans did evolve, we did NOT evolve from monkeys! Monkey are also superior in there nitch.
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Random Signature:
"When will I learn? The answer to life's problems aren't at the bottom of a bottle, they're on TV!"
Edited by - Luigison on 5/30/2003 9:51:06 PM
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I also went to Purgatory on the Inferno Test. Although, I don't believe in Purgatory, I believe you will go straight to Heaven when you die. That is if you are indeed going to Heaven. However, I do believe in different levels of Hell. The Bible even states that there are different levels in Hell.
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I don't want to take that test.
And I don't believe in Purgatory either. I didn't even know what it was until recently.
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I don't believe in that junk, either. It's either Heaven or...the "other" very-hot, not-so-nice place. No exceptions. You die, you go to one or the other. But it's YOUR choice as to WHERE you go.
...Although there might *be* a waiting place similar to heaven after we die. I mean, God said he's still working on and expanding heaven or our "paradise" until everyone who's going is going. Also, I think we might have to wait until Judgement Day. A temporary heaven, perhaps?
Did you know there will be *TWO* judgements? The pass or fail in getting into heaven, and then a judgement between the saved? Although you don't get INTO heaven because of good works, they ARE rewarded. The more saintly you are (genuinely), the more God will bless you in heaven? He takes the our deeds and burns them in a great fire. The bad things will shrivel into nothingness, but ashes of the good things will become gold and treasures to give to God. Makes you want to live as godly as you can, huh?
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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What the dukar?
"While I don't believe in "evolution"-evolution, I do believe in change of things over time"
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
“I’m a stupid fatty and I love to play with my Easy Bake oven!â€
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huh?
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Look ma! I discovered the HTML secret!
“I’m a stupid fatty and I love to play with my Easy Bake oven!â€
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Anyway, "evolution"-evolution and the gradual change of things over time are the same thing.
“I’m a stupid fatty and I love to play with my Easy Bake oven!â€
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I meant that things do change, but not like that. "Evolution"-evolution meaning that one species can turn into another. I believe a "breed" can change into another, thru genetics, but not species.
Evoultion: a house cat was once a tiger.
Change (thru Genetics): A golden retriever was once a mixed breed. Thru taking dogs of simlar traits and continuing to mix them together, eventually they formed one breed.
There's a big difference.
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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The below Simpsons quote made me think of this thread.
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Random Signature:
"Marge, I agree with you -- in theory. In theory, communism works. In theory."
Edited by - Luigison on 6/3/2003 9:30:35 PM
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I thought this to myself when I was stacking wood yesterday: Why do some people have no faith in some fairly logical research and infinite faith in a Book?
Beats me, oh well.
“I’m a stupid fatty and I love to play with my Easy Bake oven!â€
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Because NOTHING in that Book can be proven WRONG. Almost EVERYTHING in it has BEEN PROVEN TRUE. Logic would conclude that the rest is true, too.
Like I said, actually *prove* ONE thing in the Bible wrong, and I'll believe you.
BTW, I took a "Spiritual Gifts Test" and mine are Faith (38/40), Teaching (38), Knowledge, Discernment (seeing right from wrong), and Prophecy/Perceiving. Having 5 out of 16 possible gifts is pretty good, if you ask me. So DON'T MESS WITH ME! I'll defend my beliefs to the last straw and prove anyone against them WRONG. :P
...I also found a "Passion" test. I'm most passionate about something I believe in.
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
Edited by - Sapphira on 6/4/2003 4:46:43 PM
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Can you give me the adress to the "Spiritual Gifts" test so I can be told that I'm a total waste spiritually? Please? That seems like fun.
Congratulations! You have just been blessed by the wisdom of Steve.
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Actually, it's not an online test. It's a packet my parents got from our church. I'll gladly list the spiritual gifts, though.
-Administering/Ruling
-Apostleship/Pioneering (going to a new place--I got the lowest score possible on this one :P)
-Discernment
-Evangelism
-Encouraging/Counseling
-Faith
-Giving
-Hospitality (my next lowest)
-Knowledge
-Leadership
-Showing Mercy
-Prophecy/Perceiving
-Pastoring/Shepherding
-Serving/Ministry
-Teaching
-Wisdom
And EVERYONE has at least ONE gift. Whether they use it for God or not...
I'd definitely say you have the Gift of Knowledge, Steve.
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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Well, I'll do a self-evaluation then:
-Administering/Ruling - Na, I'm not confident in myself.
-Apostleship/Pioneering - .... Nope. Not too adventurous here.
-Discernment - Hahahahahahahahahahaha NO.
-Evangelism - What is this? Does that mean preaching? Nope.
-Encouraging/Counseling - I need counseling myself, how can I do this?
-Faith - I don't even have faith in myself.
-Giving - Only at my convenience. So no.
-Hospitality - I'm never a hopsitable person.
-Knowledge - Depends on what kind of knowledge.
-Leadership - (See Administering/Ruling)
-Showing Mercy - ... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! gfioas *smacks head on keyboard in laughter* NOPE.
-Prophecy/Perceiving - Usually no. Sometimes though.
-Pastoring/Shepherding - I don't have a way with sheep.
-Serving/Ministry - I'm not the kind of person who throws himself into servitude. So no.
-Teaching - Meh, depends on the topic.
-Wisdom - Hmmmmmph. Maybe. Though I'm A LOT more wise than your average person:
Actual words of wisdom from Amanda, this one girl I know from school:
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Anyone who drinks [cola] should be shot. (As this was said, I was sucking down a Pepsi)
Amanda: This one kid is such a JERK! I clearly stated that I wanted a piece of bacon pizza, and this guy in front of me takes the last piece of bacon pizza when I CLEARLY said that I wanted bacon pizza!
Me: And why do YOU deserve it? He was there first...
Amanda: Because I'm a girl!
(That last quote got me mad enough to leave the lunch table.)
Amanda: Adam, look! *points at the Jello Adam is eating*
Adam: What?
Amanda: Your Jello is orange!
*Amanda walks to our table and points at my two friends, back and forth, for about 30 seconds on end.*
Me: What in the hell are you doing?
Amanda: Look! They're both wearing yellow shirts!
Me: Hey, look at this casino game I made!
*Amanda plays one game of Blackjack and loses*
Amanda: I lost?? This game sucks! You suck at making games, Steve!
And oh yes, almost forgot: Amanda is almost 18 years old.
So ya. I guess I have SOME gifts... Maybe.
Congratulations! You have just been blessed by the wisdom of Steve.
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Okay...This "Amanda" has some strange sense of reasoning...
Here's me, broken down more specifically:
-Administering/Ruling: Average
-Apostleship/Pioneering: Hahahahahaha! Me? *GO* somewhere to help others!! Right!
-Discernment: 4th place gift
-Evangelism: average
-Encouraging/Counseling: average
-Faith: Tied for #1 gift
-Giving: Hahahahaha!!! Moving on...
-Hospitality: BWAHAHAHAHA!!! That's a good one!
-Knowledge: 3rd place gift
-Leadership: Average
-Showing Mercy: Average
-Prophecy/Perceiving: #5 gift. But VERY, VERY there in a freaky way...
-Pastoring/Shepherding: on the low side...
-Serving/Ministry: HAHAHAHAHA!! No... Well, I can be. Depends on my mood and who I'm with... On the low side...
-Teaching: Tied for #1 gift
-Wisdom: average
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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Lizard Dude: "Why do some people have no faith in some fairly logical research and infinite faith in a Book?"
Sapphira: "Because NOTHING in that Book can be proven WRONG. Almost EVERYTHING in it has BEEN PROVEN TRUE. Logic would conclude that the rest is true, too."
Luigison: Actually some things have been shown to be incorrect because of the lack of understanding of its writers. These small things don't have to do with it main concepts and can be ignored anyway. For example, we KNOW now that the Earth orbits the sun, but the Bible suggests it's the other way around because that was the believe at the time. Even knowing this today many people (I am not using the Bible's 'races' definition) still say that the sun rises, but really it is the Earth rotation that makes it look that way.
Also, be careful not to take all of the trueths of the Bible to far. Hitler used the logic in the Bible to ustify what he did to the Jews.
http://www.superiorbooks.com/excerpts/why_exc.pdf
Sapphira, you may want to add to the discussion at http://www.mwillett.org/atheism/funny.htm
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Random Signature:
"You can't keep blaming yourself. Just blame yourself once, and move on."
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...Uh...huuuh... okaaaay...
Name something SPECIFICALLY untrue about the Bible. And honestly, the "sun rising"? for crying out loud, we still say that today. I've read the Bible the WHOLE WAY THROUGH, and never ONCE did it refer to anything untrue. It's obvious no one can prove me wrong unless they, themselves, have ALSO read the Bible.
*Shakes head* How can you disagree with something you're not even familiar with?
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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Whoa, Sapphira. When did I say things in the Bible were untrue? And what have you *proven* false about evolution?
I know what you're talking about, Luigison. The Bible says pi equals three. Heh.
“I’m a stupid fatty and I love to play with my Easy Bake oven!â€
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...Heheheh...sorry...I can get defensive sometimes. And I like I said, I'm most passionate about stuff I believe in.
So far, evolution has neither been *proven* right or wrong. It's just a theory.
You could say the Bible is just a "theory" too, but some things *HAVE* been proven true. Nothing so far has been proven untrue, so as I said, it's logical to assume the rest of it's true.
While stating that, if the Bible *IS*, in fact, true, then the theory of evolution would be proven flawed.
This is why I put my faith in this "Book"--because not only does it make sense to me and explain a lot of questions, but a lot of it *ACTUALLY* is *proven* true, and nothing untrue. So naturally I put my faith in something I can trust.
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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Although some things that happened in the Bible can be shown to possible happen in other ways, that doesn't mean that they couldn't happen the way the Bible says. For example, certain dessert bushes have layers of oily wax on their leaves and stems that protect them from dehydrating in the harsh dessert sun. These plants have been seen to get so hot that their waxy layer catches fire. Now, that doesn't prove that God didn't use a bush as stated in the Bible. So, you are correct as far as I know in saying that nothing in the Bible has been proven wrong.
You said, "Nothing so far has been proven untrue, so as I said, it's logical to assume the rest of it's true."
I don't disagree with you that things in the bible have not been proven untrue, but I don't think it is logical to assume the rest is true. If I told you some things that you proved were true it wouldn't mean that everything I say is true. I can see your assumption, but you know what they say about when you assume.
You said you have faith in the Bible. Now, that I can respect. Faith and logic to me are different things. Sometimes you have to follow your faith and do things that are not logical. Although, blind faith can also get you killed. You can't jump from a 10-story building and live because of faith. Besides, God said not to test faith that way.
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Random Signature:
"'So what do we do if we get bitten by something deadly, then?' He blinked at me as if I was stupid. 'Well what do you think you do?' he said. 'You die of course. That's what deadly means.'"
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Some people follow blind faith; I follow blind logic.
If you want to assume that a whole thing is true because parts of it are true... well... let me prove you wrong.
Suppose you have a bag of marbles. You know nothing about the colors of these marbles, only that they marbles. This bag of marbles represents The Bible, and the marbles themselves represent the stories. (Bear with me here) Now, draw a marble. Let's assume it is green. Draw a second. Another green. A third. Another green. Sapphira, what you are saying is that because the first few marbles you drew are green, the bag is composed of entirely green marbles.
What would happen to that faith if you suddenly drew a red marble?
Ah, the joy of late-night metaphors.
Congratulations! You have just been blessed by the wisdom of Steve.
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Both of you are right; one shouldn't assume that all of the stories are true because many of them are.
It works both ways, though. There is still that chance that the rest of the bag is filled with green marbles. One’s faith is exactly what may determine what is actually in the bag in the first place, eh?
However, lets say you do draw a red marble after three consecutive green marbles. One had assumed the whole bag consisted of green marbles, but now realizes it is not. However, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. That is, of course, assuming a green marble represents a true story and a red marble an untrue story.
Personally, I believe many of the stories to be untrue in the Bible. By that, I mean that the events did not actually occur. However, I believe these "stories" to be an example for us to follow. Take Adam and Eve, for one. I believe that is a story for us to understand how the earth was created. I don't believe Adam and Eve were both actual living beings. However, that is a lax interpretation of the Bible. I'm not saying what I believe is right, nor am I saying it's wrong.
What I am saying is; so what if you draw a red marble? Even if it's not green, it will still teach you something, which is all the marbles are really supposed to do.
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I have something to add that may or may not be of any use.
Anyway, I'm reading The Silmarillion by J.R.R. Tolkien right now. And in the beginning, there's a story of the creation of the Earth. I see it this way - Adam and Eve, or Ainulindalë, they're both interpretations of the beginning. Same goes with a lot of the Bible. I haven't read all of the Bible. But I pretty much think what isn't direct historical accounts is pretty much just interpretations of normal things for that time.
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Bad news for the alternative multiregional hypothesis today.
See http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=68&ncid=68&e=1&u=/nyt/20030611/ts_nyt/skullsofferfirstglimpseofearlyhumanfaces for details.
“I’m a stupid fatty and I love to play with my Easy Bake oven!â€
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Quite the blow to the belief we evolved from said Neanderthals.
I've always found it quite interesting when they discover new fossils of things said to be our descendants.
Edited by - Black Mage on 6/11/2003 4:46:37 PM
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The interesting thing about The Silmarillion and Tolkien is that the basic concept behind all of Tolkien's works support Christianity (he was a Catholic, so that sort of helped). The same with C.S. Lewis and the Narnia books...
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Like Many Waters, for instance.
“I’m a stupid fatty and I love to play with my Easy Bake oven!â€
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I can point out something thats Translated wrong...it says crap I cant remember where..but it says that your suposed to hate your mother,father,sister,brother,and any other family member you can think of and only love Jesus..however..in the original language, the word they translated to "Hate" Actually means to "love less"..were supposed to love our family less than god...
It‘s-a me, Marionut#1!
Edited by - Marionut#1 on 6/19/2003 3:38:44 PM
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Ugh. The concept behind Many Waters was cool, but the actual book was awful.
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Topic revival time! Woooooo! Okay, here's another point I wanted to make on a few posts I saw a while back...
“Now about the Mark of Cain, it was been said that it was used as an excuse for the slavery of dark colored skinned people.†-- Black Mage
Interesting. I have never thought nor heard about that before. That theory, however, is flawed. Whether or not Cain’s mark was that he was black, we’ll never know. However, had you read your Bible, you would know that none of Cain’s descendents exist anymore. All of the people currently on this planet are descendents of Noah and his sons.
The great flood wiped out EVERYONE on the planet at the time EXCEPT for Noah’s family. So everyone came from them.
Backing up to Noah’s ancestry, he is a descendent of Adam and Eve’s third son whom a name is mentioned (they had a TON more kids): Seth. So, technically, we’re also all descendents of Seth; Cain and Able are out of the picture. Ictso-factso
(Another note: Noah's son's wives could have been of different races...)
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Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
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Heh, it's been a long time since I wrote that. No one had ever said much of it, after I started on this topic.
"That theory, however, is flawed. Whether or not Cain’s mark was that he was black, we’ll never know."
That's true. It's impossible to know what the Mark Of Cain was. I've heard many different explanations of it; a sign on this forehead, black skin, or even his size. However, as humans, we tend to use things as excuses to get what we want. If we can interpret something to work in a way which benefits us, then more often than not, we do.
"However, had you read your Bible, you would know that none of Cain’s descendants exist anymore. All of the people currently on this planet are descendants of Noah and his sons. "
I have read the Bible. XD
And yes, I know the stories of Noah as well. However, that plays little significance in the point I was trying to make.
Cain was forced to become a vagabond of sorts, roaming around. Basically an outcast from the rest of the world. Now, if one was to believe that his mark was that of Colored Skin, then that is easily twisted into the mentality slave holders could have used.
It matters not if Cain's descendants were around or not, as he was still treated that way in the past. And if God had allowed people to treat him that way, then why should they not do it? I don't think it had anything to do with Cain himself, per say, but the fact that he may have had colored skin. I believe that was the point I was trying to make.
Also, I in no way agree with that mentality, as that post, from which you derived that quote, makes it seem. I guess I wasn’t all that careful with words, back then. >>;
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I'm a christian and if you say god sucks you WILL PAY!
I see mushroom people!
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I didn't know He had a mouth.
“I’m a stupid fatty and I love to play with my Easy Bake oven!â€
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"Like I said, actually *prove* ONE thing in the Bible wrong, and I'll believe you."
Prove that there isn't a giant invisible alligator named Henrico floating in space and I'll believe he's not there.
"So far, evolution has neither been *proven* right or wrong. It's just a theory."
I think you're misinterpreting what a theory is in science. You're using it more like what the word hypothesis actually means. Theories have been tested over and over again, and never found wrong. If a scientist could find evidence against such a well-established theory like evolution or gravity or relativity, he would be the most famous scientist of the century. And everyone wants to be the most famous scientist of the century. So that's what science is all about: trying to prove itself wrong. And when it can't, it slowly accepts that fact as a more and more rigorous truth. What a brilliant way to do things!
You might also be interested to know that when the Theory of Extinction was proposed around 1800 that Christians everywhere rallied against it. "How could God let his creatures go extinct? That wouldn't happen!" was the argument of the day. That theory went the way that evolution is going and sadly, species do go extinct.
Thus ends my bump.
“I’m a stupid fatty and I love to play with my Easy Bake oven.â€
Edited by - Lizard Dude on 4/18/2004 12:09:56 PM
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A LOT of Christianity is backed-up by scientific and historical data.
______________________________
"Legolas is a guy?!" -My Sister
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Well spoken LD, err.. typed.
Did anyone see the Noah documentary on Discovery or The Science Channel?
Edited by - Luigison on 4/18/2004 12:46:57 PM
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Well. I could prove God exists with 5 arguments from St. Thomas Acquinas's Suma Theologia. However, this is very time comsuming. I believe in God, And I don't stant for arguing about it. Oh, and the Bible does not include all factual incidents. For instance-- a Catholic isn't required to believe in the creation story.
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Well. I could prove God exists with 5 arguments from St. Thomas Acquinas's Suma Theologia. However, this is very time comsuming. I believe in God, And I don't stant for arguing about it. Oh, and the Bible does not include all factual incidents. For instance-- a Catholic isn't required to believe in the creation story.
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I was in a play, and I still have the script. About the creation of the world:
Anna: Your Majesty is reading the Bible!
King: Ah! Mrs. Anna. I think your Moses shall have been a fool.
Anna: Moses?
King: Moses! Moses! Moses! Here it stands written by him that the world was created in six days! You know and I know it took many ages to create world. I think he shall have been a fool for have written so. What is your opinion?
Anna: Your Majesty, the Bible was not written by men of science, but by men of faith. It was their explanation of the miracle of creation, which is the same miracle whether it took six days, or many centuries.
Um, yeah, so that's how I feel about the whole 'impossible to create world in six days' thing. The point is that it's possible for there to be no God, but it's possible for there to be God, too. I think God is real. I don't know how to end this post... Look out behind you!
Edited by - Markio on 4/18/2004 1:40:44 PM
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A Catholic isn't required to believe in creation? I can't believe what I'm hearing (or reading)! Sure, maybe we don't have to believe it word-for-word, but we have to believe it actually happened. Yes, I just said "we" right there, because I'm a Catholic.
Man, I'm feeling hyper today.
C: #define SIG "This is a sig."
C++: const std::string SIG = "This is a sig.";
Java: static final java.lang.String SIG = "This is a sig.";
Basic: This is a sig.
:)
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What he meant was that the pope in 1920 said that Catholics could believe in evolution if they wanted to. I learned this at a lecture I went to Friday by a guy who researches flaws in textbooks and evolution.
“I’m a stupid fatty and I love to play with my Easy Bake oven.â€
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Yup, Thats what I meant. Thanks LD. I can still accurately call myself Catholic, even being an evolutionist.
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Why believe what the pope says you may believe when you could just as easily believe what you think is right? If you want to believe something, why would you wait for another person's approval before actually believing it? Or does the Catholic church teach that what's important is not what you believe but whether someone else has declared your beliefs "okay"?
Before you answer, please make sure you understand that I am not addressing the issue of evolution. My questions are almost sort of rhetorical, anyway. . . . Sort of.
"Greetings from Belgium, the only country in Europe where the leading source of natural gas is the local dairy farm."
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Whenever I ask a rhetorical question, people answer them.
A day without sunshine is like night.
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Why do you suppose that is?
“I’m a stupid fatty and I love to play with my Easy Bake oven.â€
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I once knew a kid who made fun of others bacause their religions contained more than one god. He said that what they believed was phoney and all of this other trash. People should be able to velieve what they want.
Ex: Hindu, Shinto, etc.
"There are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people."
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I believe in evolution, but not the kind of evolution that most people think of when they hear the word. The evolution I believe in is:
Let's say on some remote island, there is a species of birds. These birds have to have a special kind of beak to get food from flowers. Now let's say that humans discover the island. Suddenly, there's a lot more food for the birds now that humans have appeared. So they can adapt their beaks to suit their new food source. That's the kind of evolution I believe in.
The kind of evolution I don't believe in is that we came from a primordial soup. For that to be true, we would have evolved from tiny strands of amino acids linked up to form protein. But scientists have failed to prove that amino acids, when exposed to conditions such as found in a warm pond on early Earth, can link up to form proteins over and over and stay that way. All of the experiments done by scientists have proven that amino acids can link up, but they can't stay linked up without the scientists' interference by, say, removeing the linked ones before they have a chance to break apart again. And even when they do link up, the DNA sequence is all wrong for life to evolve from it. It's like arranging Scabble letters to form the word PROTEIN. You or I can do it easily, but random processes in nature can't. The letters always end up spelling TNOIRPE or some other mixed up sequence.
Anyway, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking by it.
btw, Tell me your belief at A Survey This Is
Bozone, n.:
The layer of gas surrounding a person which prevents good ideas from penetrating.
Edited by - ¥tterbiJúm on 4/19/2004 3:46:31 PM
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So you believe in Darwin's theory of Natural Selection then. Basically survival of the fittest. The birds that can adapt can live, and the birds that can't don't.
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All Darwin said was decent by modification.
Decent by modification.
Do you believe yourself to be exactly like your parents? If not, then you agree with Darwin.
He didn't know what amino acids or DNA were.
“I’m a stupid fatty and I love to play with my Easy Bake oven.â€
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¥tterbiJúm, it only had to happen once. A random generator can eventually spell Protein. DNA is much more complex than your analogy, but it could happen. I am not saying it did, but it does logically make sense. Just because someone or ones in a certain time can't do something doesn't make it impossible.
What's more interesting than where and how the protein and DNA came to be is how the Mitochondria and their DNA got in every cell. I think that the original single celled organism (which had it on DNA) obsorbed a mitochondria (including its DNA). These twos relationship was then mutually beneficial so they replicated together.
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Ok so I said that I wasn't going to post the 5 proofs for the existence of God. That was a lie. I am going to do it, as soon as I find my [EDIT] theology binder. So untill I do... Well.... I dono..... But I t will be up by tomorrow!
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Edited by - Koopaslaya on 4/26/2004 3:18:14 PM
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1 of 5
Because things exist, and because nothing can cause itself to exist, therefore, whatever existss must be the result of some other cause.
And because that cause could not have caused itself to exist, or it would have never existed in the first place, therefore, that cause must be the effect of yet another cause.
And because this process of cause and effect could not go back infinately, or it would have never started in the first place, therefore there must be a first uncaused cause, which can only be God.
2 of 5
Because things change, and because nothing can cause itself to change, therefore, whatever changes must be the result of some "changer".
And because that changer could not have changed itself, therefore, that changer must be the result of yet another changer.
And because this process of changing could not go back infinately, or it would have never started in the first place, therefore there must be a first unchanged changer cause, which can only be God.
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Edited by - Koopaslaya on 4/21/2004 2:06:25 PM
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thoelogy? Sounds like Saph's spelling and grammer checking are slipping. I haven't seen her use soap lately either. Is she even here. Will the real Saph please stand up.
I think your philosphical "proofs" don't proof anything. They sound more like ancient greek theology than proofs.
I also think the quantum theory of wave colapse comes closest to proving the existence of a creator than anything else.
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Survival of the Fittest doesn't apply to humans. Wheras most animals seem perfectly content to let their weaker members die off, human beings, due to their tendency to feel for things, make absolutely sure that other members of the species live long enough to reproduce and copy whatever flaw they had into future generations.
Perfect example: How many people today have 20/20 vision? I honestly don't know ANYONE in my class with 20/20 vision. Everyone has glasses or contacts. I am no exception; I am something like +-4.0 (Can't remember which, I think -) ... so yea.
~I.S.~
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Oh? Shouldn't that be....?
"Thoelogy"? Sounds like Sapph's spelling and grammar checking are slipping. I haven't seen her use soap lately either. Is she even here? Will the real Sapph please stand up?
>:P I'm here. I just don't post as much anymore, but I'm certainly around.
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Wise men talk because they have something to say;
fools, because they have to say something.
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Ah haw haw. Like the pot callin' the kettle black.
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I think it is closer to "The black crayon calling the kettle black."
~I.S.~
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These proofs that you don't aggree with are not yet completed. When I find the rest of the worksheets they will be concrete. Let me finish...
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I bet Zeno's Paradoxes would blow this guy's mind, if he buys these.
“I’m a stupid fatty and I love to play with my Easy Bake oven.â€
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Still cna't find the Theology binder, However,IS, yes survival of the fittest DOES apply to humans. Ever Hear of SOCIAL DARWINISM? It has to do with imperilism. Stronger nations takeing over weaker ones. Get It? When I find that binder.... Jusst wait.
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-_-' Social Darwinism has nothing to do with evolution...
“I’m a stupid fatty and I love to play with my Easy Bake oven.â€
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LD, IS said that survival of the fittest dosen't apply to humans. Thats what my comment was on. Nothing to do with Evolution.
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Hmm, then someone should tell my grandma who should be dead five times by now.
“I’m a stupid fatty and I love to play with my Easy Bake oven.â€
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I always forget to come to this thread at least once, and should mention what is my belief.
I'm a Christian from the Roman Orthodox Church.
I don't know if any of you know Orthodoxy, but I don't think I have the knowledge or the time to explain.
Of course, the Orthodox do believe in Christianity in much different views than the Catholic or the Protestant.
I am a pure Super Mario lover!!
...and in no point in the future will he ever be abandonded by me!
I will even drawn the best Super Mario comics ever to exist!!
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I am not one to revive long-dead topics. But, I am not one to break promises, so Tomorrow, the rest of St. Thomas's proofs WILL be posted.
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Because among things there are some that are more beautiful, better (more good), truer (more true), and
some things that are less beautiful, less good, less true, etc. ¬
And because something is "more" or "less" only as it resembles something else which is the maximum/the "most,"
... there is something which is the most beautiful, best (most good), truest (most true)-something perfect, and this could only be God
Because things in nature which do not have 'intelligence and knowledge act in a consistent way,
And because a thing without intelligence and knowledge cannot act consistently unless it is directed by some being endowed with intelligence and knowledge, as the arrow is shot to its target by the archer, ...
some intelligent and knowledgeable being exists by whom all natural things are directed, and this could only be God.
Because if God does not'exist to create the universe, then there' would be infmite time,
And because with infinite time every possibility is eventually actualized,
:. if God does not exist; then every possibility is eventually actualized.
Because every possibility is eventually actualized if God does not exist,
And because things can both exist and not exist at different times,
:. one possibility is the simultaneous non-existence of all things.
Because one possibility is the simultaneous non-existence of all things,
And because if God does not exist, then there would be infinite time,
.'. the possibility of the simultaneous non-existence of all things
would have taken place by now.
Because the simultaneous non-existence of all things would have taken place by now, . And because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing,
:. by now nothing would exist.
Because things do exist now, :. there exists something which cannot both exist and not exist at different times¬something which much exist at all times, and this being could only be God.
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Whoa... that was really deep...
Actually, I make my Confirmation this Sunday. I dunno if I already mentione don this thread, I'm a Lutheran, Protestant branch of Christianity.
I see God not so much as a being, but as an entity that oversees all else and keeps everything in the universe going. I believe many scientific theories, but I'm a firm believe in God also. I think stuff like the Big Bang theory was caused by God, and things like Evolution apply to animals, as previously stated in this thread. I try to work as many scientific ideas into Religious beliefs.
______________________
I fear nothing!
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"And because if God does not exist, then there would be infinite time,
.'. the possibility of the simultaneous non-existence of all things
would have taken place by now."
WHY? Who says we're that far along in Infinite Time?
This philosophy is complete bunk.
Meowrik's post was much more sensible.
“I’m a stupid fatty and I love to play with my Easy Bake oven.â€
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Infinfinite time= Time goes back forever.
Time goes back for ever no Begining.
No begining, everything would have already happened by now.
Infinite Time=Infinite Possibilities.
So If Infinite time is true, Time would go infinately back, therefore It must have think of negitive Intergers, they go back forever, like time.
Oh well, we all will look at those proofs differently. So respect others oopinions.
Lizard Dude I don't want to get in a fight with you because I like you. SO I think we should give it up. OK?
Edited by - Koopaslaya on 8/20/2004 7:48:51 PM
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Something has happened in my life that I wish to share with others. It is very directly about God, and that's why I'm posting it in this thread. Anyone who wants to is welcome to read the account of what happened, but I can honestly recommend it only to those who would consider themselves Christian. It doesn't seem likely to me that others would gain much from it, but I can't say for certain. You know how I feel about it, so I'll leave you to make the decision.
This is something that I desire to share with other people in my life, too, so I put the text onto a separate web page that is easily viewable by you guys and by non-Fungi Forums members alike. Click the following link to go there.
Not exactly a blaug entry.
"He is not a fool who gives up what he cannot keep for the sake of what he can never lose."
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That looks interesting, Watoad. I'll have to read it later. :) Anyway, about this whole infinite time thing, I believe that God existed before time and he created it for our benefit. Or maybe there was no time on Earth until Adam and Eve screwed up the 'system' and then time began and people started to age and die. This may sound impossible but when you think about it it's probably the only thing that could really work since if there is a beginning there must be something before that, but if there was no beginning then a beginning could be made. And maybe one day things will return that way and time will be no more (at least that's what I think). It took me forever to even understand that theory the first time I heard it.
Oh hey, did anyone see that news special last night about the rapture and the authors of the Left Behind books? I thought it was pretty cool but they kind of made fun of the believers.
"Do you got a mullet goin’ on?"
Edited by - Yoshisaurus Rex on 5/5/2005 6:17:53 AM
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I read what you had to say, Watoad. To be honest, something to that degree is unfathomable to me. I'm overjoyed for you, as I believe it's rare for someone to be as touched as you have, by God himself.
I'm a skeptical person by nature, and due to that, most everything I read is subject to the said skepticism, and your story was no different. But, I want to make this clear, I believe every word of it. To some, it might sound outrageous, and though I haven't had the fortune to experience what you have, I do not have a doubt in my mind that it happened.
And, as I said, I'm extrememly happy for you. It's an amazingly powerful experience, I'm sure. It's something I can only hope more people are able to experience, be it through your aid, or another's.
Also, at some point in your story, it sounded as though you were 'Speaking in Tongues', a gift of the Holy Spirit. My knowledge of this is rather limited, but being granted that gift is a high honor.
I was worried when I saw this topic reappear, again, but now I'm glad it has. Very nice, Watoad.
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That was pretty interesting, Watoad.
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I'd say every word of what Black Mage said. That was incredibly awe inspiring.
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I think what God told you is true for all of us...unless you're, like, the one or something.
If your day is bad, a nice comment at night can change everything.
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*eyeballs pop* Oh man... I can't believe how awesome that is. I'm so happy for you Watoad. And glad that you could experience that. I can't find the words to express the impact that had on me. Everyone needs to read this (and that's why I'm bumping this :) ).
Watoad is the one! The one and only!
"Do you got a mullet goin’ on?"
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Me: Catholic.
Some friends: Prodistent which is sort of the same, but one of them doesn't like it.
Some other friends: Mormon. I have nothing against them.
Some cousins: Jewish. Once again, It doesn't bother me.
Other people: don't even have a religion at all. It's their call. I am 100% against any form of predjudice. Predjudice isn't a religion, it's just when people don't like another race or religion, which is wrong.
"Silly Rabbi. Kicks are for trids!"
A bird can fly… But a fly can’t bird!!! –Bird Person<(^v^)>
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I've said this a number of times before on this board, but I'm Catholic too.
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i'm also catholic...& lovin' it! :-P
jay-jay & yoshi: sisters in Christ & best friends forever! cuz sisters who sing together, stay together!
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I come from a Catholic family, but I consider myself to not be religious at all.
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Wow. I just read my posts from 2 years ago here. I still can't believe in God, although I'm not the pessimist I once was. I'm still ever-leary about most things, but I think the biggest factor to that is the fact that I'm graduating from high school in less than a month, and I'll be out of an environment that is the polar opposite of my personality. Watoad's reading was quite interesting. I can see the reasoning behind the emotions... but I can't see it happening to me...
While religion can be a good thing, I'm really quite sick of people who use it to justify their closed-minded bigotry. "Oh, I'm right because GOD told me I'm right!"
~I.S.~
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As always, sorry for the little delay there. A bit more than usual has been going on in my life, but I absolutely must find time for you good people sooner or later. ;)
> It's an amazingly powerful experience, I'm sure. It's something I can only hope more people are able to experience, be it through your aid, or another's.
Yes, it was indeed an amazingly powerful experience. But just like any other experience, it becomes memory and then fades over time. Some of the details that I recorded I might already be unable to recall without the aid of what I wrote. The experience was more profound than any other I've ever had, but it was still just an experience.
What's ultimately important about it is what God told me. The message that He gave me will always be the same, experience or not, and it applies equally to those who have had such experiences as it does to those who haven't. God can use anything to work in someone's heart and change it, even just words on a page. He gave me what I needed when I needed it, and the understanding that He's given me has changed my life forever—and He will be the One making sure that the change is permanent, not I.
> Also, at some point in your story, it sounded as though you were 'Speaking in Tongues', a gift of the Holy Spirit. My knowledge of this is rather limited, but being granted that gift is a high honor.
Yeah, that's probably what it was. Speaking or praying in tongues is and I think always will be a mystery to me, like God Himself is. But it is a gift that He gives to His children, a gift that at least some of them can use to praise Him. It is always for His honor, though, and never for ours.
> I think what God told you is true for all of us...unless you're, like, the one or something.
Yes, it is very much for all of us! God loves and longs for you, Markio, equally as much as He does for me. He is not a jealous God, and He simply doesn't give in to favoritism. Moreover, there is nothing at all special about me as compared to other people. The only good in me, the only worth I have whatsoever, is what I have in Christ. He has already done everything for me; I can't add even one thing to what He has done.
> I can't find the words to express the impact that had on me.
I'm very grateful that God would use my words to speak to you. There is nothing that I can do or say that would help you, but God can use me when He wants to. I'm ever so grateful when He does.
> Watoad is the one! The one and only!
All I can say to this is, I'm just so glad it isn't true. Thank you for the compliment, but I think it's clear that I didn't do anything here. It was all God. 100%. And it always will be. (And that isn't true simply because I say it is.)
> but I can't see it happening to me...
Neither could I. If you had told me, say, a month ago, that God was going to talk to me like that, then I would have told you that you could go fishing in dried up lake and catch a shiny golden platter with fresh fish ’n’ chips sitting on it. I thought visions and stuff were for old dudes in the Bible! But something that would happen to me? Not a chance.
> . . . I'm really quite sick of people who use it to justify their closed-minded bigotry. "Oh, I'm right because GOD told me I'm right!"
Yeah, isn't that just terrible? It's sad what pride can do to people. The really sad part, though, is that those people made me upset when I was one of them. Even if I never said something like that quote (which I can't remember), that was how I lived for the longest time. I mean, I bet you could even find a post of mine in this very thread that has that attitude written all over it, or at least between some of the lines. It pervaded me.
And to some extent, it still does. God is changing me, but I still find myself thinking arrogant things every single day. And all they ever do is destroy me and hurt others, like that quote you posted. I'm just grateful that God has allowed me to see how destructive that kind of thinking is, even if only after many years of hurting myself and others. As for those who don't realize this and go around proclaiming their self-righteousness, they might do well to consider the following:
Some of the greatest strength can be found in realizing how little of it you actually have.
"He is not a fool who gives up what he cannot keep for the sake of what he can never lose."
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*pounds fist on table* Amen! By the way, I was just kidding about that "one and only" thing. I know that God gets all the glory for this, but it was still great of you to tell us about it.
"Do you got a mullet goin’ on?"
Edited by - Yoshisaurus Rex on 5/10/2005 7:59:32 AM
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I'm Roman Catholic, but I'm not a terribly religious person.
Random Manga Quote:
"You''re in love with her, but you''re too scared to deal with it...So you walk around like you got a permanet chip on your shoulder?"--Kensuke Yura. Girl Got Game volume 8 chapter 1.
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Those italics made me smile, especially when you quoted a place where I already had an italic so you made it normal in the quote. I think I need to go to sleep; I mean, I'm getting in high spirits because of fonts! Which reminds me of a word my mother taught me that I can blame all my problems on: "mal-adjusted".
...Wow, I just woke up. From myself, though. Er... OK, can you guys, like, pretend I never said anything? I need sleep...
If your day is bad, a nice comment at night can change everything.
Edited by - Markio on 5/12/2005 10:26:27 PM
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Oh, I just thought of something. Watoad, if you get any more visions are you going to tell us about those too? I hope so!
"Do you got a mullet goin’ on?"
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I've recently been going through some spiritual issues. I disowned my parents religion then begain to research into others that I could convert to. Today I consider myself a syncretist, my beliefs being a mixture of Hinduism, Buddhism, Baha'i and Shintoism. So I'm curious to know what religion you follow.
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Christianity.
I think I've been a jerk to everyone and their religion. When pt_peach came here, I threw mine up in her face, and then a while later, I used my religion to fight with everyone else in the belief topic.
I'm sorry, guys.
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Good work PaperLuigi-- that's just the kind of apology that helps to dissolve some of the arrogance that some may stick onto Christianity. Speaking of which, I am a Christian (with no denomination).
I'd like to say that I have never had any problems accepting the religions of others, but my background knowledge of certain religions makes me uncomfortable with them [the RELIGIONS, Sapph].
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...
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Apology accepted :).
I actually just went back and found the post that you were speaking of because I didn't quite remember. (It was all painful to read because of bad grammar)
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Oh, I just thought of something. Watoad, if you get any more visions are you going to tell us about those too? I hope so!
As a Man From The Future, I'm going to say, no, he's not going to tell us.
Apology accepted :).
I actually just went back and found the post that you were speaking of because I didn't quite remember. (It was all painful to read because of bad grammar)
Ooo burnnnnnnn!
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Me, I'm a Catholic, but I'm not a very active one. Actually, I'm not religiously active at all. To tell the truth, I have no time for religion.
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Having no time for religion is like saying you have no time for breathing. No matter how busy one is, their true beliefs and religion guide them through the decisions they make and the paths they follow.
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I'm a Christian, but I'm in the same situation as The Chef. I don't have any time for religion either. I'm also beginning to doubt that God actually exists; there are so many things that disprove everything written in the Bible. Like evolution, for example.
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I guess I'm a non-believer, then. :/
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I actually just went back and found the post that you were speaking of because I didn't quite remember. (It was all painful to read because of bad grammar)
Was it my grammar? X_X
My basic beliefs:
I believe that there is a God.
I believe that He helped evolution along.
It is in my opinion that one can embrace both science and religion.
I think people have messed up religion, really. Did Jesus, Muhammad or anyone else set specific rules to worshiping God? I think as long as you have a personal relationship with God, then you can embrace science and everything else (Mario!). And of course, if you don't believe, that's cool too.
And that's pretty much it.
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My basic religious beliefs are:
- I believe that there is only 1 God
- I belive that prophets came to promote the religion.
- I don't believe that people can convert other people; it's all in God's hands.
- I believe in jins and angels.
- I don't believe that you have to go out of your home just to worship God.
and I was talking about my grammar, PL. I also think that whoever and whatever you choose to follow is your choice, no one elses.
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I also believe that there is an evil force out there too. (Stan with an "a" between the "S" and "t". Many people believe that there's a God, but no devil.)
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As I've said 2 years earlier, I'm still pretty...unreligious (no, not a word, but I couldn't think of one to get my thought across).
Raised Catholic, our whole family pretty much stopped practicing after my sister made Confirmation. I've not set foot in our own church in over 3 years, but I have been to others, mainly for funerals of old relatives. Truth be told, our church isn't very good. My mother claims they're very greedy, and I can believe it.
Now, the church where I used to live..that place was fun. Across the street from it was a Catholic school. Every Monday after school I'd attend a religion class there to prepare for my Reconciliation, and Communion (most children there made their first Communion at the age of 7 or 8, as I did). I think I was the only one there who actually enjoyed the taste of the bread (I still do). After church every Sunday morning, there would be a breakfast held in the school. We'd go and enjoy ourselves there, and chat with friends, etc.
The priests at the old church were cool, too. They'd always tell jokes which made everyone laugh. The only time I laughed at our "current" church was when one of the priests tripped and fell as he walked up the stairs to his podium.
After I moved I was "home taught" my Religion classes the first year I lived here. After that I went to a woman's house every Wednesday evening. She was nice, her kid was nice, but all the other kids were terrible. I also realized my first year there that they had not made their First Communion yet. I basically sat that year out, and after that I prepared to make Confirmation my Freshman year of High School. I didn't look back after I left the Church that day.
So, yeah, you're all bored to death or skipped my post entirely. =)
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You know, I'm not very religious.
Honestly, I think there are more important things to do in life that worry about where you go when it ends. You know, life doesn't last forever, but death does, so why not worry about these things once you die? You'll have forever to do it.
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You know, I'm not very religious.
Honestly, I think there are more important things to do in life that worry about where you go when it ends. You know, life doesn't last forever, but death does, so why not worry about these things once you die? You'll have forever to do it.
You do realize how silly that sounds, don't you? If you were already dead, it would be too late to do anything about where you're going. :P
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I hope they have Mario in heaven!
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Heh, I doubt it. Then again, I've never been there, so I guess I'll just have to wait.
I live in a small town, so the people at my church are people I can relate to. They're funny, loose and make the class fun.
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Whatever floats your boat Solid, but goodie is absolutely right. Worrying about making it to heaven while you're burning in the fiery depths won't do you any good. :P
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But it's still a valid point, that we shouldn't spend all our time worrying about whether or not you get into heaven. It's more productive to apply true goods and principles to everything you do in life. You know, temperance, fortitude, hope love & faith, prudence, etc. By the way, I'm not claiming to be an expert, I worry about heaven all the time, and still act all weird.
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Whatever floats your boat Solid, but goodie is absolutely right. Worrying about making it to heaven while you're burning in the fiery depths won't do you any good. :P
Hmm, who says there even is a Hell? I mean, this is another reason why I don't accept the modern beliefs of religion. Where did they come from? No one knows! Half of you believers could be believing in some random stories that were passed down by word of mouth for thousands of years. I just think our civilization is too advanced to believe in these stories. Oh, and I'm sorry if my blasphemy offended anyway.
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That's why religion is based mostly on faith. And I think humans are pretty stupid.
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It's also why I sort of believe in what Douglas Adams wrote in the Hitchhiker's Guide. You know, that Earth is really a giant supercomputer and all that.
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First of all, I would like to say that I did read your entire post, Vid.
Second, here's my view. I am a Baptist, which is a part of the Protestant denomination of Christianity. I basically believe in everything that comes packaged in the Protestant faith, including one God that rules over everything, as he created everything (good, anyways), and that evolution does not exist, nor did God plan evolution. I also respect everyone's opinion and religion, even if I do not practice the religion or believe in the opinion.
Lastly, I'd like to say that I am still developing as a Christian. Just two years ago I started going to church, so I am still learning many new things as I go to church.
Well, I didn't really know how to word this entire post, but here it is.
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Where did they come from? No one knows! Half of you believers could be believing in some random stories that were passed down by word of mouth for thousands of years.
Christianity came from Jesus himself. Most people over look that he was an actual person. Christianity, as well as Islam, were created by living people. They aren't really random stories, you know.
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Christianity was created more by Jesus' followers than him, I think.
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I believe that some (a large portion or small) of your beliefs come from how you were raised. There are people that I know that were raised Muslim, but they did not accept that Islam was right when they got older. They did their studies and found out which religion, if any, made sense to them.
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Christianity came from Jesus himself. Most people over look that he was an actual person. Christianity, as well as Islam, were created by living people. They aren't really random stories, you know.
Well the old testament was made way before Christ, considering that it's pretty much the Jewish holy book. Plus, all of these stories were told by word of mouth, so yeah. It was like when I was little and all of us little kids used to play telephone.
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I'm Not Exactly Catholic. The rest of my family is Catholic, but I don't actually do or believe in much Catholic stuff. I believe in the concept of God, but that's mostly it.