Poll

Is his health care reform or deform?

Reform
7 (43.8%)
Deform
9 (56.3%)

Total Members Voted: 16

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Author Topic: Obama care  (Read 40388 times)

ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2009, 08:24:20 PM »
All I know is that there is absolutely nothing about this proposed health care system that can, in any way, be compared to anything the Nazis did at any point in history in several dimensions.
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

Koopaslaya

  • Kansas
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2009, 08:43:14 PM »
I have been accused of making a slippery slope argument with this one, but I'll test it here anyway.

The USPS is not doing too well, and Obama himself has stated this. Yet, in the same speech, he was quick to note that UPS and FedEx are flourishing. Hmmm... interesting. The bureaucratic Postal Service is struggling, yet privatized companies are doing well. If the government can't pull off a feat like delivering my mail more successfully than private companies, how can it possibly take on health care effectively?

I also question the complexity and political jargon in the bill itself. I'd much prefer to see a well-written, organized, and logical bill than the current jumble of a bill sitting on capitol here right now. 1,500 pages is a daunting task for the congresspeople alone, let alone for the common man whom this bill actually effects. Complex problems, of course, have simple, easy to understand wrong answers, but this level of complexity and confusion is so great that most "Joe the Plumbers" in America cannot but help to struggle with the exact MEANING of health care. With a document so big, it is also easy to slip in pork and other nonsense.

Have you ever hit a tube of toothpaste with a hammer? Probably not. Luckily, I have for you. Not all the paste comes out the end, and the tube, not surprisingly ruptures. I fear a similar situation when health care reform is smashed through the system at such a hammer-like velocity.

Another tough problem facing me in the midst of this whole debate is the portrayal of "the other side" by both parties or ideologies. False name-calling, political games, careful editing of newsworthy clips to fit an agenda by the media, and the like create a real debacle when one tries to carefully asses the situation at hand. Trying to surf through the liberals' portrayal of the right as frightened pawns of Rush Limbaugh alone has almost alienated me from the plan. If anyone disagrees with this policy, the liberal media can twist the situation so that it appears to be a case of racist hate against a black president.  (See the first few minutes of this informative, albeit conservative, video: http://www.pjtv.com/video/Afterburner_with_Bill_Whittle/___MSNBC_&_The_Great_Liberal_Narrative:_The_Truth_About_The_Tyranny_of_Political_Correctness/2343/) But, at the same time, we see the conservative talk radio crowd dismissing all supporters of the plan as radical Marxists with an insatiable desire to ruin the American capitalist way and turn it into Soviet Russia.

Clearly, many issues are at play with the so called "health care reform." Would it be prudent now, with the federal deficit growing even greater and the advent of unsuccessful stimulative programs (i.e.,CARS) which have no real, tangible end, to force a paradigm shift on the entire American people without enough time for everyone to more fully understand the nuances of the issue? I vote no. Surely, something must be done about America's health care policies -- there's no doubt about that. But first we really need to know what "health care reform" entails. That means careful research on the part of social scientists, diligent and honest philosophical discussion concerning the moral and ethical repercussions of such a plan, and earnest political discussion that seeks not to alienate parties but rather to build bridges between both seemingly ever-opposed factions. Let's take a breather here. With the very notion of American life as we know it hanging in the balance for the forseeable future and beyond, ought we to take a sledgehammer to the tube of tooth paste, when squeezing it out gradually will almost certainly hold a brighter future for us all?
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Luigison

  • Old Person™
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2009, 04:30:29 PM »
If the government can't pull off a feat like delivering my mail more successfully than private companies, how can it possibly take on health care effectively?
That's a "non sequitur" that you followed with a "slippery slop" argument.  You went on with some good and bad arguments IMO, but I don't' have time to go into them now.   Regardless, I praise your thoughtful post.
“Evolution has shaped us with perceptions that allow us to survive. But part of that involves hiding from us the stuff we don’t need to know."

Insane Steve

  • Professional Cynic
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2009, 09:58:32 PM »
Having seen firsthand how insurance companies work (I worked for one) -- I think it is a lot more scary to have a group of people doing everything they can to make a profit making decisions about your health than the government.

As for the "we can't spend more money" argument, I forgot, I think there was some kind of conflict we initiated that cost trillions of dollars in deficit spending that happened not too long ago but my mind is fuzzy.
~I.S.~

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2009, 10:17:57 PM »
So because Republicans were stupid and spent trillions of dollars we couldn't afford, Democrats should get a chance to even the score and do the same thing now, when we have even less money?
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

Insane Steve

  • Professional Cynic
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2009, 11:04:17 PM »
I think it's hilarious that the right is only "fiscally conservative" when they aren't in power.
~I.S.~

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2009, 11:12:47 PM »
There's always a fiscally conservative contingent, which rarely gets into power and always complains rather consistently about both sides.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 12:13:37 PM by CrossEyed7 »
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2009, 10:55:57 AM »
I think it's hilarious that the right is only "fiscally conservative" when they aren't in power.

The Right, or the Republicans?  There seems to be a growing difference between the two.

By definition, the Right is always conservative.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2009, 03:23:35 PM »
What's more confusing: Having political parties whose names have absolutely nothing to do with what they stand for, or ones named after their political orientation? As you can see by the expertly-constructed graph below, our Conservatives are less conservative than your Republicans, while our Liberals are more liberal than your Democrats... or the government of North Korea.
YYur  waYur n beYur you Yur plusYur instYur an Yur Yur whaYur

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2009, 05:02:36 PM »
A quick approximation as I see it.
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

« Reply #40 on: September 09, 2009, 05:22:02 PM »
...Did you make that, CrossEyed?

Regardless, Kim Jong-Il would be gettin' those chicks whether or not he was the totalitarian dictator of their nation. Oh, and the placement of "modern liberals" is remarkably true.
YYur  waYur n beYur you Yur plusYur instYur an Yur Yur whaYur

Glorb

  • Banned
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2009, 02:43:46 PM »
I have always found it both disturbing and hilarious that some people think anarchy is a good idea (not counting the emo teens who just draw circle-A's on their notebook and call it a day).
every

Chupperson Weird

  • Not interested.
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2009, 02:53:58 PM »
Depends on the participants in the anarchy, I guess. If there were a group of people who seriously didn't want authority over each other it might work fine.
That was a joke.

« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2009, 11:14:40 AM »
Why is Bill Maher on that chart?
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2009, 11:51:31 PM »
I'm against it and am especially against the proposal requiring Americans to get insurance. I don't want health insurance!!! (I don't go to doctors and just try to "ride it out" when I have something--which always works fine; I'm the guy who doesn't miss anything because of a minor cold or something and had perfect attendance in school).

There are talks comparing it to automobile insurance. However, there's a big difference there. Driving is a privilege, not a right. You don't have to get that automobile insurance if you don't drive. There's no law saying you need to drive, either, and some people don't even need to--I've got a buddy who moved to DC and he doesn't have a car because in DC there is no need for one thanks to their excellent public transit system. Same goes for my friend who moved to NYC--she left her car at home. Neither are forced to buy automobile insurance.

Living in America should not involve a mandatory payment to buy health insurance. You can theoretically live in America and not have to pay taxes (provided you don't own property, don't work, and buy stuff that doesn't include sales tax). That won't change if this awful bill is passed. However, if you are now forced to buy insurance, you're screwed if you don't have the money. I guess I'll be asking for an insurance plan I wouldn't use for Christmas so that I can spend my money on stuff that matters to me.

I hope this provision gets squashed like a bug when this thing gets voted on this week. If it somehow makes it out of the senate it will hopefully die in the house before it hits Obama, who clearly doesn't know the difference between something that must be bought for a privilege that one does not have to exercise (auto insurance) versus something that he thinks should be purchased just to live in this country, which won't exactly be known for freedom anymore if this happens. Obama lied to us because I believe he once said he wouldn't make it mandatory.

Also, since I'm new here, I guess I should say that I'm predominantly Republican in my views although I oppose guns entirely. I voted McCain last year and voted Bush in 2004. I'll hopefully be voting for Bobby Jindal in 2012!!!

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