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Author Topic: You Rage (or Lose Faith in Humanity), You Lose  (Read 118012 times)

« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2011, 08:30:20 PM »
What a waste of time and energy.

Yeah okay. Well guys, I'm off to take a giant [dukar] on the rights of my gay friends.

*rolls eyes*
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 08:39:41 PM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2011, 08:48:24 PM »
No, I mean it.  Why are you bothering?  All this struggle against us bigots for what? 

To be contrary?  That's a waste of energy.  Just live your life and stop worrying about what we say and do to others.

Out of some sense of altruism, as you said?  So you can feel all warm and fuzzy?  There are easier ways to get a fix, which don't involve arguing with the clearly psychotic religious right.

For the sake of your gay friends?  Eh, I guess that's fine and all, but once they've gotten what they want, why pursue the agenda further, as if there's some sort of moral issue?  Surely it can't be worth the suffering and the struggle?  Nothing on this earth is worth that kind of pain.

I don't approve of homosexuality because I honestly believe that there is a legitimately objective moral law that says "that's not good."  I'm just curious as to why you believe what you believe, and what makes it more legitimate than any other opinion out there?
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2011, 08:54:45 PM »
Just live your life and stop worrying about what we say and do to others.

If what you do to others is persecute them, it becomes everyone else's business if they have any sense of justice
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2011, 08:56:00 PM »
But any sense of justice in a world without God is baseless.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2011, 08:59:37 PM »
No, I mean it.  Why are you bothering?  All this struggle against us bigots for what? 

Because you're wrong. And a bully.

To be contrary?  

No. Because you're wrong. And a bully.

Out of some sense of altruism, as you said?  So you can feel all warm and fuzzy?  

Altruism≠doing things to feel good.

I'm just curious as to why you believe what you believe, and what makes it more legitimate than any other opinion out there?

Your religion can't explain morality either. Sorry.
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #65 on: June 25, 2011, 09:01:20 PM »
But any sense of justice in a world without God is baseless.

My base for justice is "Treat others as you would like to be treated."
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

« Reply #66 on: June 25, 2011, 09:05:07 PM »
For the sake of your gay friends?  Eh, I guess that's fine and all, but once they've gotten what they want, why pursue the agenda further, as if there's some sort of moral issue?

...the "agenda" to get equal rights?

Nothing on this earth is worth that kind of pain.

Then tell your guys to shut the **** up and stop trying to ban gay marriage.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 09:12:25 PM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #67 on: June 25, 2011, 09:14:25 PM »
Because you're wrong. And a bully.
Why is this bad, or any skin off your nose, unless I'm specifically bullying you?

No. Because you're wrong. And a bully.
Why is this bad, or any skin off your nose, unless I'm specifically bullying you?

Altruism≠doing things to feel good.
Then how would you define altruism, and what case would you make for its being a desirable trait?

Your religion can't explain morality either. Sorry.
Uh, yes it can.  God creates the universe, his law is inherent in the universe, because that's the way he made it.  You can't just look at a puddle of water and say "this water doesn't explain why everything in the puddle is wet."

My base for justice is "Treat others as you would like to be treated."
Fair enough.  That's fine for you.  Now, what makes this base inherently any more legitimate or inherently any better than that of some guy off the street which says "I do what I want, and screw anyone and everyone else"?

...the "agenda" to get equal rights?
Marriage is not a legal right because the government has no business issuing marriage licenses.

Then tell your guys to shut the **** up and stop trying to ban gay marriage.
NO U
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

« Reply #68 on: June 25, 2011, 09:19:49 PM »
...And to think, LD said this thread belonged in Forum Games.
YYur  waYur n beYur you Yur plusYur instYur an Yur Yur whaYur

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #69 on: June 25, 2011, 09:21:15 PM »
Why is this bad, or any skin off your nose, unless I'm specifically bullying you?

Quote
   First they came for the communists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left to speak out for me.


Fair enough.  That's fine for you.  Now, what makes this base inherently any more legitimate or inherently any better than that of some guy off the street which says "I do what I want, and screw anyone and everyone else"?

Besides being more or less at the root of how America works (have you ever heard the phrase "majority rule, minority right?"), it's a lot less selfish than... a lot of things I can think of... including "My dad told me it was cool to hate some people, so I hate them"

Edit: Incidentally, I also see the Golden Rule as the key component to being a gentleman, but that's not what we're talking about here
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 09:24:59 PM by BP »
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

« Reply #70 on: June 25, 2011, 09:24:00 PM »
Why is this bad, or any skin off your nose, unless I'm specifically bullying you?

I might as well be approving of what the bully is doing. Don't be daft.

Then how would you define altruism, and what case would you make for its being a desirable trait?

Guy 1: HELP! I'M BEING SYSTEMATICALLY DESTROYED BY THIS BULLY.

Me: Hm, well I wouldn't like it either. Even though I'm not being bullied I'll help you out, free of charge.

Guy 1: Gee thanks!

Me: Don't mention it.

Uh, yes it can.  God creates the universe, his law is inherent in the universe, because that's the way he made it.  You can't just look at a puddle of water and say "this water doesn't explain why everything in the puddle is wet."

Only you have to prove your religion is true first.

Marriage is not a legal right because the government has no business issuing marriage licenses.

*rolls eyes* We've been over this before...marriages were being recognized long before Christianity even existed.

NO U

If it's not "worth the pain" to achieve equality, it's not "worth the pain" to stop it.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 09:27:18 PM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #71 on: June 25, 2011, 09:26:02 PM »
{quote}
But isn't the Slippery Slope a fallacy?

Besides being more or less at the root of how America works (have you ever heard the phrase "majority rule, minority right?"), it's a lot less selfish than... a lot of things I can think of... including "My dad told me it was cool to hate some people, so I hate them"
But why is being selfish a bad thing?

I might as well be approving of what the bully is doing. Don't be daft.
Yes, but why does that matter, is what I'm asking.  What difference does it make whether you approve or disapprove?

Guy 1: HELP! I'M BEING SYSTEMATICALLY DESTROYED BY THIS BULLY.

Me: Hm, well I wouldn't like it either. Even though I'm not being bullied I'll help you out, free of charge.

Guy 1: Gee thanks!

Me: Don't mention it.
That's stupid.  What a waste of your time and energy.  I mean, sure if that's how you want to waste your life then go for it, but again, it can't possibly be worth it.  Like, at all.  And you can't make any legitimate claim that your way is any better than the bully's.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2011, 09:29:46 PM »
Some of your questions simply don't have answers that can be put into words. If you truly can't see why we would care if a group we don't personally belong to is being treated unfairly, I question how human you are.

Not that it makes you any less than me--if they were disallowing sociopaths from marrying I'd speak for your rights too
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2011, 09:32:29 PM »
Simply put, if you were the one being screwed over, your opinion would be different. That's why we help people in need.

This is the best explanation for "morality" we've got: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1Yrbc5O1gI

Your version of Christianity doesn't even get CLOSE.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 09:46:37 PM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2011, 09:41:30 PM »
If you truly can't see why we would care if a group we don't personally belong to is being treated unfairly, I question how human you are.
Believe it or not, I understand perfectly.

Keep in mind that I'm trying to argue from your starting point (that is, the "six" on that scale Luigison posted - "De Facto Atheist"), not from the position I actually hold to.  Best process I can come up with starting from "there is no God" is "there is no God -> there is no objective morality -> I can do whatever I want, be altruistic or selfish or nice or a jerk and it doesn't matter what I choose, just what makes me happy."  Please, tell me where the reasoning is flawed.

Now, contrast with what I really think: "there is a God -> He's laid down some pretty specific rules, like 'don't murder people' and 'don't steal' and 'don't lie with a man as one lies with a woman' -> probably a good idea to follow these rules, not just out of fear, but because I know they're right and good and because I want."

If it were up to me, I would just say "marry who you want, no big deal," but it's not.  If you'll pardon the cliche, I don't make the rules.

Simply put, if you were the one being screwed over, your opinion would be different. That's why we help people in need.
Yeah, it would suck, but you wouldn't catch me going around pretending that there's some moral reason against it.  I would fight against being screwed over because it's in my own interests to do so, not because I think these people are somehow morally wrong to screw me over.  They have just as much right to screw me over as I have to not be screwed over.

This is the best explanation for "morality" we've got: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1Yrbc5O1gI
That video doesn't seem like the best one to use for this particular debate since by definition homosexuals don't reproduce and thus don't contribute to the evolution of their species.  Going by the "morality evolved from what collectively helps the human race" argument, homosexuals should be discriminated against more, not less, since they're a drain on resources because they don't reproduce (a similar argument could be made for euthanizing retirees or the disabled).
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 09:52:58 PM by Turtlekid1 »
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

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