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Author Topic: You Rage (or Lose Faith in Humanity), You Lose  (Read 118013 times)

« Reply #75 on: June 25, 2011, 09:51:47 PM »
Now, contrast with what I really think: "there is a God -> He's laid down some pretty specific rules, like 'don't murder people' and 'don't steal' and 'don't lie with a man as one lies with a woman' -> probably a good idea to follow these rules, not just out of fear, but because I know they're right and good and because I want."

Prove God exists first. You're just begging the question right now.

That video doesn't seem like the best one to use for this particular debate since by definition homosexuals don't reproduce and thus don't contribute to the evolution of their species.

There are other ways of contributing without reproducing.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 09:58:28 PM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #76 on: June 25, 2011, 10:00:04 PM »
Again, back to the ol' "Prove He exists," "Prove He doesn't" routine.  You can't prove conclusively either way.  All you can do is look at the evidence and make your choice and act accordingly, share your beliefs with others, and hope they agree.  One way or another, though, arguments and debate aren't going to win anyone over.

Something I often struggle to keep in mind is that I'm not going to win over more people than Jesus; all the miracles He performed and the message he shared, and a lot of the people in His day still would not see the truth.  No, I can't prove God exists.  I can say what I have to say but beyond that it's up to God whether people will say "yes," "no," or "maybe."

Just realize that if there is no God, you don't get to make the claim that something is right or wrong - or at least, you don't have anything to support that claim beyond your saying so.

There are other ways of contributing without reproducing.
Yeah, but the other 98% of the population can do those things and reproduce.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #77 on: June 25, 2011, 10:02:30 PM »
As far as getting upset about cultural things goes, shouldn't we as Christians be far more upset about divorce than about gay marriage? If marriage is so important that we get as ****ed off as we do when someone calls something marriage that isn't, then shouldn't we be a thousand times more ****ed off when something that actually is marriage is destroyed?

It's like someone's pointing at a cat and saying that it's my dog, and I'm all like "No, that is not my dog, that is a cat; screw you for insulting my dog like that" and meanwhile someone else is shooting my dog with a gun and has been shooting my dog with a gun for a very long time now and I'm not saying a word about it because I'm busy arguing with the cat guy.

*shrug*
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #78 on: June 25, 2011, 10:02:45 PM »
Keep in mind that I'm trying to argue from your starting point (that is, the "six" on that scale Luigison posted - "De Facto Atheist"), not from the position I actually hold to.  Best process I can come up with starting from "there is no God" is "there is no God -> there is no objective morality -> I can do whatever I want, be altruistic or selfish or nice or a jerk and it doesn't matter what I choose, just what makes me happy."  

Please, tell me where the reasoning is flawed.

Arguing from a perspective held by none of the debate's participants? Interesting (but terrible) tactic

Okay, so, I think the reasoning is flawed... here:

there is no God -> there is no objective morality

Things aren't that black and white. As we've gone at this before, I've told you that I find morality in the hope for agreed fairness in THIS life. I think humanity is smart enough to compromise and have rules (made up by people) that we all must follow at the risk of punishment (exacted by people). I think it's understandable that these rules are not absolute and can change with time (at the say-so of people). I think we're smart enough not to need a father figure who made absolute, stagnant rules millennia ago, threatening us with eternal suffering if we don't follow it (to put things into perspective, God is essentially Santa Claus for adults).

I think we're better than you think. I think we can think.
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

« Reply #79 on: June 25, 2011, 10:10:54 PM »
Again, back to the ol' "Prove He exists," "Prove He doesn't" routine.  You can't prove conclusively either way. 

But it's up to you to prove it. You're making the claim.

Something I often struggle to keep in mind is that I'm not going to win over more people than Jesus; all the miracles He performed and the message he shared, and a lot of the people in His day still would not see the truth.

Again, a lot of what was written about his divine powers came after his death.

No, I can't prove God exists.  I can say what I have to say but beyond that it's up to God whether people will say "yes," "no," or "maybe."

But at the same time you believe that homosexuality is a choice?

Yeah, but the other 98% of the population can do those things and reproduce.

...so? Alan Turing created the modern computer and he never reproduced. And he was gay! Yet human intelligence is evolving as a result of his invention.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 10:14:06 PM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #80 on: June 25, 2011, 10:21:48 PM »
To get back to the original topic while these new ideas are floating around:

Why do you want to make anything they believe will be punished with hellfire illegal? Isn't it God's job to kick gay ass around for what they're doing? I can understand preaching against doing what you believe is wrong, but banning it? Is there a point?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 07:28:05 PM by BP »
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #81 on: June 25, 2011, 11:03:22 PM »
As far as getting upset about cultural things goes, shouldn't we as Christians be far more upset about divorce than about gay marriage? If marriage is so important that we get as ****ed off as we do when someone calls something marriage that isn't, then shouldn't we be a thousand times more ****ed off when something that actually is marriage is destroyed?

It's like someone's pointing at a cat and saying that it's my dog, and I'm all like "No, that is not my dog, that is a cat; screw you for insulting my dog like that" and meanwhile someone else is shooting my dog with a gun and has been shooting my dog with a gun for a very long time now and I'm not saying a word about it because I'm busy arguing with the cat guy.

*shrug*
God hates divorce, too, man, but in today's society it's not normalized to nearly the same extent and degree that homosexuality is (which isn't to say it's not taken way more lightly than it should be), or at least, you don't have an entire, massive movement dedicated to normalizing it.  Mind you, God actually allows for divorce as a necessary evil under certain circumstances (adultery), whereas He states pretty explicitly that homosexuality is unacceptable and doesn't really give any exceptions.  The reason it's often seen as worse than murder and the like is less because homosexuality is actually so much worse than any other sin and more because people still aren't saying murder is cool (well, actually, they kind of are, what with abortion and all), but a disturbing number of people are saying homosexuality is cool.

I think we're smart enough not to need a father figure who made absolute, stagnant rules millennia ago, threatening us with eternal suffering if we don't follow it (to put things into perspective, God is essentially Santa Claus for adults).
probably a good idea to follow these rules, not just out of fear, but because I know they're right and good and because I want."

I think we're better than you think. I think we can think.
So if we're so great then why have laws in the first place?  Go ahead, legalize murder.  Legalize theft.  If you're right, people who would actually do such things are the exception, rather than the rule, right?  Let people fend for themselves.  That way no one can blame anyone but himself if he's not happy with his life, and he can do whatever is necessary to get what he wants.  But most people are better than that and can "think," so it's not a big deal, right?

But it's up to you to prove it. You're making the claim.
You're making the claim that it's wrong to discriminate, but there's not much proof of that, either.  You make the claim and act on your belief because you believe it.

Again, a lot of what was written about his divine powers came after his death.
As opposed to... what?  Prophecy?  I didn't think you believed in prophecy.

But at the same time you believe that homosexuality is a choice?
In the sense that you can choose to not be perverted, yes.  Hard to believe, maybe, but people are more than animals.  As BP said, we can think.  If you've done something wrong, it's because you did it, not because you were born with the desire to do it.  You can be predisposed towards Diabetes because of your genes but ultimately you're still the only one to blame if you eat yourself into a sugar coma.

...so? Alan Turing created the modern computer and he never reproduced. And he was gay! Yet human intelligence is evolving as a result of his invention.
A happy accident, then, but you can't say that he justifies the continued role of homosexuals in society any more than you can say that all atheists are evil because Stalin was.  There are always going to be anomalies but you can't account for them in any effective way.

To get back to the original topic while these new ideas are floating around:

Why do you want to make anything they believe will be punished with hellfire illegal? Isn't it God's job to kick gay asses around for what they're doing? I can understand preaching against doing what you believe is wrong, but banning it? Is there a point?
Same point as preaching against it - God said "restrain evil."  The law is a method of restraining evil.  Which is sort of going back to what, exactly, the purpose of government is.  And going back to that, I'm going to just leave this here again.  I mean, it probably won't change your mind but I would recommend that you give it a glance anyway.  Again, it likely explains this worldview better than some stupid kid writing this post on his laptop at 12 AM could.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #82 on: June 25, 2011, 11:17:01 PM »
I normally hate this expression, but...

ITT: People trying to resolve millenia of ethical and spiritual debate in an anonymous Mario message board.

Anyway, I'm not going to waste time trying to shine a light into this particular cave of ignorance, but I will just reiterate that though I do not believe in any god of any sort, I still have a system of morals--so if you want to sign me up for Turtlekid1's Traveling Circus as a sideshow attraction, I'm game (as long as I don't have to shoot myself out of a cross-shaped cannon though a ring of flaming busts of Galileo, or something like that). Also, as George Carlin aptly noted, "I’d like to point out that during the twentieth century, white, God-fearing, predominately Christian Europe produced Lenin, Stalin, Franco, Hitler and Mussolini." Faith = The only true path to morality, my ass.
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #83 on: June 25, 2011, 11:18:41 PM »
Divorce isn't normalized in today's society?

You're making the claim that it's wrong to discriminate, but there's not much proof of that, either.  You make the claim and act on your belief because you believe it.
You're asking big why questions from an atheistic standpoint, but you're not asking the same questions from a Christian one. Yes, in a world without any gods, you could keep on asking those questions -- Why live like that? Because it's right. Why is it right? Because it benefits the most people. Why is that what we should do? It's what I choose to do. Why should I choose that? -- but you can ask the same questions in Christianity -- Why follow God? Because he says so. Why should we listen to him? Because he's God and he made us. Why does that matter? And so on.

At some point, everyone has to just choose to believe something and act on it (and I don't mean picking a religion or a scientific theory or anything that specific; I mean at a fundamental epistemological level), because you can keep questioning everything -- How do I know the world exists? Well, I perceive it. Isn't it true that you don't really perceive the world; you only perceive your own perceptions themselves? Yeah, I guess. So what do I know? I know I exist. What is existence? Do I really know I exist? If I didn't exist, would I notice a difference from what I experience now?

Everyone needs a philosophical foundation for their beliefs, and it always requires a leap of faith if it's going to be anything beyond cogito ergo sum (and even that can be questioned if you're good enough at philosophizing, so even that needs a bit of a leap).
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

« Reply #84 on: June 25, 2011, 11:49:50 PM »
Everyone needs a philosophical foundation for their beliefs, and it always requires a leap of faith if it's going to be anything beyond cogito ergo sum (and even that can be questioned if you're good enough at philosophizing, so even that needs a bit of a leap).

Yeah, it's logically trivial to conclude with "I exist" because existence is not a predicate. It's already implied in the subject. Existence is presupposed in the cogito or "I think," so it's circular reasoning to conclude existence from thinking.

By and large, existence is accepted as true without a necessary test (at the very least, thinking doesn't work).

So yes, CrossEyed is right: this and other axioms require a "leap of faith" to accept. It's more sensible to accept them than say, the existence of the "greatest possible island," but still.

Blah, just thought I'd throw that out there for fun.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2011, 12:07:05 AM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #85 on: June 25, 2011, 11:57:50 PM »
Divorce isn't normalized in today's society?
It is.

You're asking big why questions from an atheistic standpoint, but you're not asking the same questions from a Christian one. Yes, in a world without any gods, you could keep on asking those questions -- Why live like that? Because it's right. Why is it right? Because it benefits the most people. Why is that what we should do? It's what I choose to do. Why should I choose that? -- but you can ask the same questions in Christianity -- Why follow God? Because he says so. Why should we listen to him? Because he's God and he made us. Why does that matter? And so on.
There's more to "because he's God and he made us" than you're saying, though.  As I understand it, when God made the universe he made certain laws along with it such that there are certain things inherently, objectively right and wrong.  Of course you could make the claim that it doesn't matter, but the difference between this and atheism is that if God really did make the universe, you would actually be wrong to make that claim from an objective standpoint, because you would literally be contradicting reality.

Also daaaaang I'm tired so done for now.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2011, 12:08:02 AM by Turtlekid1 »
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

« Reply #86 on: June 26, 2011, 12:08:51 AM »
I don't see how the teachings of Jesus are compatible with selfishness. I really don't.

Didn't he go around healing and helping people free of charge? Just throwing that out there.
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #87 on: June 26, 2011, 12:10:15 AM »
Yeah, it's logically trivial to conclude with "I exist" because existence is not a predicate. It's already implied in the subject. Existence is presupposed in the cogito or "I think," so it's circular reasoning to conclude existence from thinking.
But ultimately you can even question the very nature of your own existence. It's not as though you can compare it to any experience of not existing. It's possible that your own perceptions of your own existence are an illusion. It's possible that logic has no meaning, and you simultaneously exist and don't exist.

It is.
I thought you said it wasn't?

My point still stands. Isn't divorce a bigger blow against the sanctity of marriage than gay marriage is? Isn't burning a house down worse than calling a garage a house?

There's more to "because he's God and he made us" than you're saying, though.  As I understand it, when God made the universe he made certain laws along with it such that there are certain things inherently, objectively right and wrong.  Of course you could make the claim that it doesn't matter, but the difference between this and atheism is that if God really did make the universe, you would actually be wrong to make that claim from an objective standpoint, because you would literally be contradicting reality.
We can keep calling everything into question whether God exists or not. The only difference is that if God does exist, you can bring authority into it, but then all it takes to equalize them is to question authority. Where does God get his authority? Why should I respect his authority?

Is God good, or is good God?

I say this not to say that I wouldn't have much of the same answers to those questions as you do, but simply to say that they are questions that can be asked, and to ask those questions of an atheistic worldview and not also ask them of a Christian worldview seems unfair to me.

Didn't he go around healing and helping people free of charge? Just throwing that out there.
Wait, is this an Obamacare debate now?
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

« Reply #88 on: June 26, 2011, 12:13:45 AM »
But ultimately you can even question the very nature of your own existence. It's not as though you can compare it to any experience of not existing. It's possible that your own perceptions of your own existence are an illusion. It's possible that logic has no meaning, and you simultaneously exist and don't exist.

And I agree with that too. Again, logic is something we take for granted as a foundation.

Though, we might as well not accept much of anything doing it this way, hahaha.

Wait, is this an Obamacare debate now?

I certainly hope not! Really really don't want to talk about Obama at all.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2011, 12:28:10 AM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #89 on: June 26, 2011, 01:14:40 AM »
So if we're so great then why have laws in the first place?  Go ahead, legalize murder.  Legalize theft.  If you're right, people who would actually do such things are the exception, rather than the rule, right? 

You misunderstand, I say that we're good enough to establish and uphold order, which means punishing those who refuse to give up a few personal rights for the common good. Have you ever read Lord of the Flies? If so... you probably interpreted the ending as meaning that only an absolute figure of authority can set everyone straight, so never mind...

Anyway. If you're telling me that the only reason that you ever hold a door open for someone on your way out of the gas station, that the only reason you ever save the last slice of cake for your friend even when you really want to take it and they wouldn't mind if you did, that the only reason you ever help somebody who looks lost, is because you're offered a reward when you die... that's a miserable, pitiable life.

On the other hand, if Christian mythology is real, I'm already going to Hell not because I'm a bad person, but simply because I don't believe in God. If there is a God and He doesn't like that I'm good to people because they're people like me and not because I believe something terrible will happen if I don't, or if He creates gay people as target practice that I am expected to automatically find repulsive or try to change, He can suck my mortal dick. Through fire and brimstone I will not forsake my fellow human even if paradise awaits me if I do.

Take that, God. I'm a nicer guy than you.
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

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