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Author Topic: A Problem  (Read 38663 times)

Shyguy92

  • Ridicules
« on: March 12, 2009, 08:29:36 PM »
Free speech is under siege. The UN has begun the process of making it illegal to speak out against Islam, or other religions. 57 countries have supported this so far. DISCUSS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uadgk2kveRU&feature=channel_page

For other links just Google it

What kind of outcome will this have? I can't imagine.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 08:35:33 PM by Shyguy92 »
"it's always the present"

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2009, 08:49:18 PM »
It could only have a bad outcome, that's what.  The people's right to say what they want is one of the most fundamental and important ones we have.  It sounds just like our current president to support this, though...
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

SolidShroom

  • Poop Man
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2009, 08:49:58 PM »
Man, what the heck does free speech mean? The man only wants you to think you have free speech. Don't be sheeple. Don't believe the lies. Man.

Shyguy92

  • Ridicules
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2009, 08:53:10 PM »
It could only have a bad outcome, that's what.  The people's right to say what they want is one of the most fundamental and important ones we have.  It sounds just like our current president to support this, though...
I don't think the people will allow it. Period. Some kind of fight will take place, be it in words or guns. Either way, people are ****ed.


Man, what the heck does free speech mean? The man only wants you to think you have free speech. Don't be sheeple. Don't believe the lies. Man.
See? I called it in my sig. This board is for serious discussion for f*** sake.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 08:57:31 PM by Shyguy92 »
"it's always the present"

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2009, 09:05:38 PM »
Quote from: George Washington
Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world; so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs, that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat it, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But, in my opinion, it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

SolidShroom

  • Poop Man
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2009, 09:24:45 PM »
For God's sake freedom of speech isn't really freedom of speech! It was pretty much decided that there would be limits from the very beginning. I can't just go out on the street and say "I'm going to kill the president" and then explain how I would do it. I would be arrested for conspiracy for murder and possibly treason. Don't even think for a second that you can say anything you want. That's just silly. And, you know, it isn't such a bad thing. People are stupid and need limits put on them, me included. And really, this law applies to any religion. Just ask yourself, how would you feel if it were legal to imply that your religion and your God is the devil and causes terrorism? Remember the last time when someone published a comic that connected Islam to terrorism?

Also, Shyguy, good job attacking my freedom of speech.

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2009, 10:11:41 PM »
Just ask yourself, how would you feel if it were legal to imply that your religion and your God is the devil and causes terrorism?
It is legal to imply that my religion is evil, and I am perfectly fine with that. People don't get thrown in jail for criticizing Christianity, and that's a good thing. That's a sign of a free civilized society (i.e., not Iran or China or the USSR).

Hell, I want people to criticize my religion. It's high time we brought deep, meaningful, intelligent debate back to the public square of this country. I want people to think about it and debate it and critically consider its pros and cons and think of it as serious assertions of truth, not as a nice story some people believe in just because they do and that we never talk about.

I would much rather have someone shout "I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG" than hear another person say "Oh, well, it's right for you, I guess." I am making absolute claims that, if I am right, apply to all people. And even if criticisms of my religion do annoy me a bit at times, it is not the government's job to keep me from being offended. The government's job is to keep me from getting killed or wrongfully imprisoned and then stay out of my way. There is no reasonable comparison to be made between saying "I'm going to build a bomb in my basement and kill the president" and saying "I don't think your god exists."

I'm not going to try and "win" religious and philosophical debates by running to mommy government, who has no right to intervene in religion anyway.

Remember the last time when someone published a comic that connected Islam to terrorism?
Yeah. Some Muslims, mostly ones from theocratic dictatorships where it's already illegal to badmouth Islam, got mad, and some of them committed acts of terrorism. We should be allowed to make reasonable criticisms of religions, especially ones with a notable percentage of adherents who do stupid crap like that. Saying that we shouldn't say anything to imply, for example, that Islam is a violent religion because if we do we'll get killed by Muslims is not respect, it's cowardice. I will not patronize people of any religion, patting them on the head and saying "oh, isn't that a cute thought." If a religion says something is true that I think is false, I will seriously consider and analyze their claim with the respect it deserves, and that may well entail saying things about it they don't like.

And incidentally, are you trying to say there's not a connection between Islam and terrorism? Whether or not you believe it's an inherently violent religion (the case can be made), it is simple established fact that the people who flew planes into our buildings believed they were following their interpretation of to Koran in doing so. Can we not even say that anymore? What happened to America? Even though said cartoon was in Denmark.

The point of the government is to protect our rights, including our rights to life and freedom of speech. If there is a group of people threatening to kill us because of what we say, shouldn't it be the government's job to stop that group?

Stand up for your rights!!
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 10:27:42 PM by CrossEyed7 »
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2009, 10:19:27 PM »
I'll fight ’til from my bones my flesh be hack'd to keep this from happening. The UN has disguised this disgusting proposal under the veil of peace. Go ahead and throw me in jail!
 
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

Chupperson Weird

  • Not interested.
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2009, 10:34:16 PM »
People don't get thrown in jail for criticizing Christianity
Well, not any more.
That was a joke.

SolidShroom

  • Poop Man
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2009, 10:41:22 PM »
The fact of the matter is, if we give up some of our right to speech, our right to live will be enhanced. Basically, if our ability to openly and ruthlessly criticize Islam were denied, then they wouldn't be as angry and willing to kill us. And I don't believe that this fact is directly related to Islam. If any group is ostracized enough, they will resort to violence. When nobody listens to civilized thought, they'll listen to terror. Free Speech only works in theory in the perfect little world where nobody can be offended. Additionally, I think part of it is that criticizing Islam is so accepted in today's society. They're basically the new Judaism in the fact that they're the punching bag of everyone else in the world. Criticizing Christianity is extremely taboo, and so that's why it happens very rarely in mainstream media.

And not even all Islamic people are terrorists. Saying that all Islamic people are guilty of terrorism is like saying that all Christians are cultists like the people involved in the Waco, Texas incident.

So to sum up my thoughts, it isn't a bad idea to ban statements of blasphemy in general. It's pretty much akin to banning open statements of racism. If statements of hate were allowed to be said freely, there would be unnecessary violence, all because some American didn't feel like keeping his opinion to himself.

Perhaps that's the root of the problem. Americans have big mouths.

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2009, 11:17:15 PM »
*surreptitiously gestures pointer finger underneath nose in the direction of the nearest Benjamin Franklin quote book, which would probably include, among other things, the quote reproduced below*
Quote from: Benjamin Franklin
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Don't give into terror. People who have to murder innocent people to gain respect deserve no respect at all.

Nota Bene: I am not implying that all Muslims kill people; only that all Muslims who kill people kill people, and that the ones who do should not get special protection from the government.
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

Chupperson Weird

  • Not interested.
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2009, 11:30:02 PM »
From where I'm sitting, both of you guys are on slippery slopes. You both have points, but if taken to their furthest extent, both of those points are pretty evil.
That was a joke.

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2009, 06:31:48 AM »
It is legal to imply that my religion is evil, and I am perfectly fine with that. People don't get thrown in jail for criticizing Christianity, and that's a good thing. That's a sign of a free civilized society (i.e., not Iran or China or the USSR).

Hell, I want people to criticize my religion. It's high time we brought deep, meaningful, intelligent debate back to the public square of this country. I want people to think about it and debate it and critically consider its pros and cons and think of it as serious assertions of truth, not as a nice story some people believe in just because they do and that we never talk about.

I would much rather have someone shout "I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG" than hear another person say "Oh, well, it's right for you, I guess." I am making absolute claims that, if I am right, apply to all people. And even if criticisms of my religion do annoy me a bit at times, it is not the government's job to keep me from being offended. The government's job is to keep me from getting killed or wrongfully imprisoned and then stay out of my way. There is no reasonable comparison to be made between saying "I'm going to build a bomb in my basement and kill the president" and saying "I don't think your god exists."

I'm not going to try and "win" religious and philosophical debates by running to mommy government, who has no right to intervene in religion anyway.
Yeah. Some Muslims, mostly ones from theocratic dictatorships where it's already illegal to badmouth Islam, got mad, and some of them committed acts of terrorism. We should be allowed to make reasonable criticisms of religions, especially ones with a notable percentage of adherents who do stupid crap like that. Saying that we shouldn't say anything to imply, for example, that Islam is a violent religion because if we do we'll get killed by Muslims is not respect, it's cowardice. I will not patronize people of any religion, patting them on the head and saying "oh, isn't that a cute thought." If a religion says something is true that I think is false, I will seriously consider and analyze their claim with the respect it deserves, and that may well entail saying things about it they don't like.

And incidentally, are you trying to say there's not a connection between Islam and terrorism? Whether or not you believe it's an inherently violent religion (the case can be made), it is simple established fact that the people who flew planes into our buildings believed they were following their interpretation of to Koran in doing so. Can we not even say that anymore? What happened to America? Even though said cartoon was in Denmark.

The point of the government is to protect our rights, including our rights to life and freedom of speech. If there is a group of people threatening to kill us because of what we say, shouldn't it be the government's job to stop that group?

Stand up for your rights!!

*sighs* You know what?  Just put my opinions down under "same as CrossEyed7's."  He explains these issues much better than I can, and I won't be viewed as so annoying if I don't type anything.

Well, not any more.

I know I'm going to regret bringing this up, but... what?
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2009, 06:37:28 AM »
What the heck? When did this happen? Well, I guess it's not the sort of thing you blast all over the front page of Yahoo... Still, this is pretty ridiculous.
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2009, 07:52:31 AM »
Quote from: CrossEyed
You don't get thrown in jail for criticizing Christianity

Quote from: Chup
Not anymore

Quote from: Turtlekid
what

Puritans did much worse. Burn at the stake or be stoned to death, which would you choose? You wouldn't choose, they'd choose for you.
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

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