Author Topic: Anybody prefer SSB over SSBM? (Read 11508 times)

BooDestroyer · « **on:** March 31, 2007, 04:00:03 PM »

Fully aware that many of you will say stuff like "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" and so forth, backup is required:

Not facts here, just opinions/thoughts:

Melee may have more stuff to offer, but to me, it feels like the controls are really loose compared to N64, which makes it tighter and more ground-in. I feel like my "focus point" is right behind my character and that they feel like they're floating around when jumping. And most attacks aren't as hard-hitting as they were in SSB64. It also tends to outright overdo the whole frantic factor. Too much going on on-screen, it's like hard to understand what exactly is going on there. Some characters' attacks just aren't as hard-hitting as in N64 either.

Some characters tend to get watered down. Kirby has been messed up a lot in Melee compared to N64, as many people would know. I used to be really good with Luigi in SSB, but they mangled him HARD in SSBM.

Other than that, what actually made SSB shine compared to SSBM was that there's more balance among the characters in the N64 edition. Some got too overpowered in Melee. Like Captain Falcon.

Plus, when I went through Melee's supposed "Adventure Mode", I was completely mortified. I thought it would completely focus on the side-scrolling part, but there was only one bit of that. All the rest, normal fighting. It also had quite a weak presentation, at that.

Melee may have more new characters and areas and all that, but does that necessarily mean they're ALL good for being new in there? SOME of they may be, but others aren't. Especially certain items.

Levels, too. The majority of them were too small, really. Yes, even lower than "medium". "OMG HYRULE TEMPLE"....Shut up. That one level was blatantly terrible and overrated...or should I say, overplayed. Some of the moving stages, too: some were alright, others tended to be downright frustrating. When you're stuck with one opponent, you may both involuntarily get consumed by autoscroll. Too much moving against the area can take the fun out of going for your foes, too.

Don't get me STARTED on the graphics. They look sharp yes, but is that what has a great impact on the gameplay in itself? I think not. All in all, 64 tends to shine some in the tight, distinct gameplay department.

Hopefully, Brawl should be able to bring back the GRIP that 64 had.

Heck, both games are equally good. Brawl will be the same as well. No game is ever perfect, really.

BP · « **Reply #1 on:** March 31, 2007, 04:17:40 PM »

Heh heh, yeah right. SSB's controls were really... the only way I can think of to put it is broken. Kirby and Luigi had to be depowered--they were entirely too strong in SSB. Melee had the better characters, sound, multiplayer modes, 1-Player mode, stages, graphics, and overall experience. Also, about the frantic play comment... well, it's not called "Melee" for nothing, is it?

BooDestroyer · « **Reply #2 on:** March 31, 2007, 04:22:31 PM »

Quote from: Bird Person on March 31, 2007, 04:17:40 PM

Melee had the better characters, sound, multiplayer modes, 1-Player mode, stages, graphics, and overall experience.

Yawn...I heard this before.

Quote

Also, about the frantic play comment... well, it's not called "Melee" for nothing, is it?

How's that "Brawl" gonna come along then?

The Chef · « **Reply #3 on:** March 31, 2007, 04:25:15 PM »

If there's one thing I like in SSB better than Melee, it's the slower pace. Melee is far too fast for me. Fortunately, the speed of the game is supposed to be "moderated" in Brawl.

I also think that there were far too many transforming stages in Melee, and you're kind of right about Adventure Mode.

Better yet, here's a list of thing that I think should be improved or added in Brawl:

1) Improved Special Melee:
We need more kinds of Special Melees, such as a Metal Melee. In addition to this, we should have the ability to select which player gets which which special function, such as Player 1 being giant and Player 2 being invisible. You could even be able to combine those that are combinable, such as being both tiny and metal. This mode should also be compatable with other modes such as Stamina and Stock. Speaking of which...

2) Improved Stamina Mode:
You should have the option to set the amount of stamina for each player as well as couple it with Stock or Time matches. You could even apply Special Melee rules to it to make for a really chaotic match. One last thing they'd need is a completely enclosed arena where you can only get KO'd by running our of HP.

3) Improved Camera Mode:
I thought that Melee's Camera Mode was hard to operate. This time, the first player's controller should be used and you should have the ability to pause the game in order to set up for a shot, as it's probably easier that way. I can't tell you how many funny images came up just by pausing the game in the middle of an ordinary match. Additionally, you should also be able to use any of the Special Melee rules as well as take pictures of an all-CPU match.

4) Bring back Board the Platforms:
This game ruled, plain as such. I'd love to see what they could do for characters such as Mr.Game&Watch. I'd also like to see a brand new super-challenging game where you have to break targets and board platforms. Imagine that...

5) Improved Adventure mode:
Each character would start out in their home stage and advance to the other ones after. Each stage would have a specific non-playable boss character at the end of it. Upon completing a stage, the player would be given a choice of which stage to go to next. This would be displayed on a map (which has the potential to have the map music from Revenge of Meta Knight or Milky Way Wishes in Kirby Super Star). You wouldn't have to complete every stage to beat the game, though, but doing so would yeild a few unlockables. They could even add spots on the map where you can play the bonus stages or some Wii-mote controlled mini-games. Clearing these would unlock a few more extras. The last thing they should add to top it all off would be a save feature.

6) More trophies and event matches:
There were 290 trophies in Melee. There should be at least twice that amount in Brawl, bringing it up to 580. I'm sure they wouldn't run out of ideas, given the company's rich history. As for event matches, there were 51 in the first game, so there should be 100-120 in this game. This makes for more unlockables. Maybe they could change the name to "Mission Mode" or something.

7) Character history:
This is probably the idea that only I want, but think that by fulfilling certain requirements, you could unlock a complete list of games that each character has appeared in. This feature was only used in small doses in the previous games, and I remember a similar thing in Game & Watch Gallery 4, but I want it used to it's full potential. It'll teach these young whippersnappers a thing 'r two about about ol' Ninty.

BP · « **Reply #4 on:** March 31, 2007, 04:28:39 PM »

Quote from: BooDestroyer on March 31, 2007, 04:22:31 PM

Yawn...I heard this before.

Well, those are all points that make SSBM better than SSB. Denying those are like denying a flying car with lasers that gets 80 miles to the gallon as being better than, like, the Model T.

Quote

How's that "Brawl" gonna come along then?

Brawls are pretty violent, aren't they?

BooDestroyer · « **Reply #5 on:** March 31, 2007, 04:30:29 PM »

Quote from: Bird Person on March 31, 2007, 04:28:39 PM

Well, those are all points that make SSBM better than SSB. Denying those are like denying a flying car with lasers that gets 80 miles to the gallon as being better than, like, the Model T.

You missed what I said before. They may all be new in it, but does that really mean they're ALL good? Some new characters were nice, but others just aren't really. Dr. Mario isn't super-awesome because he's new in there. Many people actually hate him because he's was just a pointless idea for a new characters, and he IS Mario.

BooDestroyer · « **Reply #6 on:** March 31, 2007, 04:31:17 PM »

Oops, double post.

BP · « **Reply #7 on:** March 31, 2007, 05:35:50 PM »

Well, so? He and Pichu aren't necessary at all, but Mr. Game and Watch, the Ice Climbers, Zelda, Marth/Roy, Bowser and Peach are all welcome additions.
Look, your opinion is fine and all, but I'm just backing mine up.

BooDestroyer · « **Reply #8 on:** March 31, 2007, 05:37:39 PM »

Yes, that's what I meant. All those rest were swell too. I don't recall saying that they were unwelcome. Nothing wrong with them, but it's all a matter of whoever you like using most.

Quote from: Bird Person on March 31, 2007, 05:35:50 PM

Look, your opinion is fine and all, but I'm just backing mine up.

You're the one who's coming off awfully stingy about it for no good reason.

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #9 on:** March 31, 2007, 05:40:51 PM »

If I say that SSBM is better, you're just going to do your best to prove me wrong.

Graphics: Must I explain? 64 compared to Gamecube is like comparing a bootleg to the genuine article.

More characters equals more fun. If you think I'm wrong, then I'm dumbfounded, 'cause I can't possibly see how 12 characters are better than 20+.

Sound and music are unbelievable when compared to the crappy sounds of the 64.

Playing experiance is better too. More stages, weapons and attacks really upped the fun factor.

Controls: Loose control gave me way more freedom. Moving faster than the super slow 64 version really worked well with me.

There is just no way the 64 version is better than SSBM. Try and prove me wrong if you will, it's just the way I feel about it.

BP · « **Reply #10 on:** March 31, 2007, 08:22:29 PM »

You can't be proven wrong in opinions. Or right.

bobman37 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 31, 2007, 08:32:26 PM »

I personally like SSB better, but I have a very biased view. I have played SSBM maybe, twice, and I played the heck out of SSB. I don't even own a Gamecube.

So, of course I'm going to like SSB better, but I sure enjoyed myself during those two SSBM runs. Maybe someday I'll get a Wii and SSBM and then I'll have a better opinion. One thing I am sure of is this is probably one of my favorite video game franchises EVER.

PaperWario · « **Reply #12 on:** March 31, 2007, 09:20:22 PM »

Well, In my opinion, if you get a 'Cube or a Wii, I strongly advise you get SSBM. The graphics improved greatly, the controls are better, and the wide variety of new characters made me filled with joy. Me and my bro' PL played the heck of the game from the Xmas it came out and to the moment I'm typing this post; And we still will play it 'till the longly awaited Super Smash Bros Brawl comes out.

BooDestroyer · « **Reply #13 on:** March 31, 2007, 10:23:32 PM »

Quote from: bobman37 on March 31, 2007, 08:32:26 PM

I personally like SSB better, but I have a very biased view. I have played SSBM maybe, twice, and I played the heck out of SSB. I don't even own a Gamecube.

So, of course I'm going to like SSB better, but I sure enjoyed myself during those two SSBM runs. Maybe someday I'll get a Wii and SSBM and then I'll have a better opinion. One thing I am sure of is this is probably one of my favorite video game franchises EVER.

Well, you'd be better off waiting for Brawl. It'll be bigger than Melee, so yeah.

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #14 on:** April 01, 2007, 08:05:44 AM »

I think there were a bunch of magnificently stupid new characters in Melee (Pichu? Young Link? Ice Climbers?), but other than that, it excels in every respect.

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #15 on:** April 01, 2007, 08:24:53 AM »

Yeah, I think all the Pokemon characters should be kicked out (This is no joke, by the way). Pikachu sucks, but I suppose he's deserving enough to be in it, just 'cause he's the mascot of Pokemon. But the other 3 in Meele were so pointless.........

Chupperson Weird · « **Reply #16 on:** April 01, 2007, 11:24:59 AM »

Jigglypuff owns when used properly.
The only really pointless characters I can think of were Ganondorf and Falco, because they were just slower versions of Captain Falcon and Fox. At least Luigi, Young Link, and Pichu have other differentiating features.

WarpRattler · « **Reply #17 on:** April 01, 2007, 11:44:37 AM »

Pichu also owns when used properly. And Falco is different from Fox in one other way, but he's still pretty pointless.

How can you think Ice Climbers are stupid, ShadowBrain?

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #18 on:** April 01, 2007, 12:58:44 PM »

Falco is awesome, Pichu is just a Pikachu clone that hurts himself.

The Chef · « **Reply #19 on:** April 01, 2007, 02:00:45 PM »

I remember hearing that Falco and Ganondorf were supposed to be there from the start, but had to have clone movesets due to lack of time. Hopefully they'll be de-cloned in Brawl. I'd also really like Pichu to stay. I like him much better than Pikachu, both move-wise and character-wise.

WarpRattler · « **Reply #20 on:** April 01, 2007, 02:02:23 PM »

Pichu has more power than Pikachu, and, if I remember correctly, is the fastest character in the game.

BP · « **Reply #21 on:** April 01, 2007, 02:08:36 PM »

I think not. I believe he is a touch weaker.
Edit: I am right. Pichu's Thunder does 13%, while Pikachu's does 14-15%.

The Chef · « **Reply #22 on:** April 01, 2007, 02:12:04 PM »

I think you're being thrown off by the fact that his attacks damage him, which is something that any good player can get around.

BP · « **Reply #23 on:** April 01, 2007, 02:16:20 PM »

Nope, I subtracted the 3% Pichu gets by using Thunder.

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #24 on:** April 01, 2007, 02:38:14 PM »

Is this Algebra class again?

The Chef · « **Reply #25 on:** April 01, 2007, 05:48:42 PM »

Still Pikachu is dreadfully slow compared to Pichu. It's kinda hard to get any hits in with him. Add to that the fact that his damage amounts are only average (despite being more that Pichu's), and you get a character that's a little sub-par. Kirby is also a victim of this. Yes, as balanced as Melee is, it was made by humans, and thus the character balance isn't completely perfect. Most slow characters have really powerful attacks to compensate, and the weaker characters are typically much faster. Some, such as Roy, were a little bit mis-scaled. He's slower than Marth, but all except a few of his attacks do less damage than Marth's.

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #26 on:** April 01, 2007, 05:59:02 PM »

Kirby is an awesome character. He may be slow and light, but he makes up for it in pure jumping power. And his transformation ability allows for some pretty strong attacks.

And I thought that Roy was stronger than Marth?

The Chef · « **Reply #27 on:** April 01, 2007, 07:59:52 PM »

Not true. It's been researched that all of his attacks are weaker than Marth's, except for a few. Add to that the fact that he's slower... yeah, not good.

Also, Kirby's transformations and jumping can't be the only thing to rely on. He's too slow for a light and small character, and most of his attacks do little damage.

BP · « **Reply #28 on:** April 01, 2007, 10:35:31 PM »

Tch, you all blame the CHARACTER for being weak. Wahahahaa.

Eclipsed Moon · « **Reply #29 on:** April 02, 2007, 03:12:52 AM »

The budget in SSBM was bigger, but still tight enough that they couldn't afford for everyone who wanted to be metal to be the same heavy solid metal that Mario was in SSB.

The Chef · « **Reply #30 on:** April 02, 2007, 10:58:28 AM »

Quote from: Bird Person on April 01, 2007, 10:35:31 PM

Tch, you all blame the CHARACTER for being weak. Wahahahaa.

I didn't blame anyone. I acknowledged the fact that developing team couldn't make every single character completely balanced.

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #31 on:** April 02, 2007, 03:47:59 PM »

But I'm Kirby all the time, and I always seem to whup characters like Bowser (who's super strong) and Fox (who's fast). It doesn't matter if they're unbalanced, if you get good enough with a character, you can beat everyone.

Kojinka · « **Reply #32 on:** April 02, 2007, 05:22:54 PM »

I either read through this thread too quickly, or no one has mentioned SSB's individual combatant entry animations yet! That is one thing that absolutely needs to be brought back. Its absence from Melee was one of the only things that disappointed me.

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #33 on:** April 02, 2007, 05:35:17 PM »

Eh..........they're not so important that it makes SSB better than SSBM. In fact, I didn't really care........

The Chef · « **Reply #34 on:** April 02, 2007, 05:41:11 PM »

Quote from: PaperLuigi on April 02, 2007, 03:47:59 PM

But I'm Kirby all the time, and I always seem to whup characters like Bowser (who's super strong) and Fox (who's fast). It doesn't matter if they're unbalanced, if you get good enough with a character, you can beat everyone.

Er, CPU or an actual other player? Because playing against the CPU is a bad thing to judge actual skill on, especially if it's low-level. If you were playing against an actual person, then they just aren't as good as you.

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #35 on:** April 02, 2007, 05:52:57 PM »

First of all, level 9 (I haven't played on a level lower in forever). 2nd, yes, I have played other players. Are you trying to say Kirby is a bad character? Because I always thought of him as one of the best.

Toad · « **Reply #36 on:** April 02, 2007, 06:37:14 PM »

Quote from: Kojinka on April 02, 2007, 05:22:54 PM

I either read through this thread too quickly, or no one has mentioned SSB's individual combatant entry animations yet! That is one thing that absolutely needs to be brought back. Its absence from Melee was one of the only things that disappointed me.

It dissapointed me, too. I was hoping to see more of those, but instead all we got was the generic "character trophies turning real" thing, which was cool the first dozen times..

The Chef · « **Reply #37 on:** April 02, 2007, 08:31:28 PM »

Quote from: PaperLuigi on April 02, 2007, 05:52:57 PM

First of all, level 9 (I haven't played on a level lower in forever). 2nd, yes, I have played other players. Are you trying to say Kirby is a bad character? Because I always thought of him as one of the best.

Even Level 9 is cake for a good player. The CPU's stupidity is near infinite. Apparently you didn't read my posts when I said that the characters are not completely balanced. Kirby is one of the ones who suffers from this.

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #38 on:** April 02, 2007, 08:41:53 PM »

Ugh. And I'm saying that even if he isn't totally balanced, he's still an awesome fighter with jumping and copy ability. The characters aren't supposed to be balanced. While Kirby is not the strongest nor fastest, his jumping ability makes up for them.

You know, I'd stop arguing with you, but after that uncalled for chicken comment towards Glorb, I'm not so sure I should. So he suffers from unbalanced stats. He's still a great fighter.

Fifth · « **Reply #39 on:** April 02, 2007, 09:26:26 PM »

Hm, I've always sort of rated the characters on the terms "ease of use" and "advancement potential". Kirby, in my opinion, is one of the easiest characters to use, and a good choice for beginners. But the potential isn't there; he just can't cut it when you try to play him seriously. This has been true in both games.

As for the differences between the games... I appreciate SSB for what it was and what it began, but SSBM is just superior in nearly every way. I'd played SSB again recently, and in comparison it's just so slow, the movements are much more constricted, the characters are much more imbalanced (not to mention the items)... There are certainly things that I've missed from the original, but Melee is just such an improvement; there's no going back.

The Chef · « **Reply #40 on:** April 03, 2007, 12:15:07 PM »

Quote from: PaperLuigi on April 02, 2007, 08:41:53 PM

Ugh. And I'm saying that even if he isn't totally balanced, he's still an awesome fighter with jumping and copy ability. The characters aren't supposed to be balanced. While Kirby is not the strongest nor fastest, his jumping ability makes up for them.

You know, I'd stop arguing with you, but after that uncalled for chicken comment towards Glorb, I'm not so sure I should. So he suffers from unbalanced stats. He's still a great fighter.

Two moves aren't enough to make a character "awesome" in terms of serious gameplay. Listen to what Fifth said.

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #41 on:** April 03, 2007, 04:02:02 PM »

First of all, Fifth posted after me, which means there was no possible way I could listen to what he said. 2nd, Kirby has other stats that make him a good fighter. He doesn't just have 2 moves. The rock attack is great because in multi-player mode, it's easy to clear out close combat. Same goes for the hammer. Pure strength and speed are not needed to defeat an opponent. Kirby is still a great character even though his stats are unbalanced.

I guess this onky applies to me, since I've trained with Kirby and made him my best character. Even though I trained with Mario or someone else for just as long, Kirby is still my best because I know how to use his moves and strategy at the same time.

The Chef · « **Reply #42 on:** April 03, 2007, 04:36:04 PM »

I meant for you to listen after he posted, Mr.Technical.

Kirby might be your best character, and all those strategies you mentioned might work for you in matches against Lv.9 CPU players, but in a serious match, you may not make it. The problem here is that you're pitting your opinion against raw facts. Whether Kirby is your best character or not won't change his shortcomings.

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #43 on:** April 03, 2007, 04:44:00 PM »

I've been in plenty of serious matches to know that Kirby is a great character. How would you know if I lost in a so-called "serious" match or not?

The Chef · « **Reply #44 on:** April 03, 2007, 04:54:22 PM »

Describe these serious matched you speak of, then.

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #45 on:** April 03, 2007, 05:01:40 PM »

2nd, this is one match that comes to mind...............

My cousin and I thought it be cool to pit Kirby (me) and 3 other characters againts each other. When I say that, it was me vs. 3 others (my brother, friend and cousin). It was set in Hyrule Temple, and I was able to beat them down by using the run and gun strategy. I ran away with some floating and used the rock attack to clear them out. I still lost, but I was pretty close to beating 2 of them.

So I guess your right in the sense that Kirby is not suited for a super intense battle. But when it's a 4vs, he's still one my best.

The Chef · « **Reply #46 on:** April 03, 2007, 05:09:34 PM »

That's just scrub play then. In a scrub match, any of them can be the best.

Serious players play to win. Playing to win is a concept that harkens back to the days of arcade brawlers such as Street Fighter II.

When you play to win, you exaploit every flaw the game has to offer, thus leading to the discovery of the character imbalance and the creation of the "tournament scenes" that certai casual players seem to hate. They really have no reason to hate it because it's just another way to play the game, just as the serious players have no reason to hate casual players just because they're technically not as good as them.

The point here is, you can't argue with the facts that the serious players have brought about, even though you're a casual player.

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #47 on:** April 03, 2007, 05:17:04 PM »

Yeah, I supose your right. I was a little pompous 'cause I sorta believed I was up there with the best of them, but I haven't been to any tourney's, so I'm not a serious player.

Who is the best? I asked the question to Nintendo Power a while back and they told me the same thing you told me in terms of scrub play. Any can be the best. But serious players aren't casual players, and since they know how to take advantage of weak balance, they know who's the best balanced fighter.

The Chef · « **Reply #48 on:** April 03, 2007, 05:19:01 PM »

Hence the tier list, which is still isnt; entirely reliable, sine it's based on which characers are the most useful tournament wise, but Fox is at the top due to being the most broken, and Mewtwo is unfortunately at the bottom.

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #49 on:** April 03, 2007, 05:28:53 PM »

Heh, I had a friend who told me that Mewtwo was at the bottom of a list that was similar to the one you just described, except Yoshi was at the top (go figure, although he is a pretty balanced character).