Fungi Forums

Miscellaneous => General Chat => Not at the Dinner Table => Topic started by: Insane Steve on March 26, 2011, 04:01:32 PM

Title: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: Insane Steve on March 26, 2011, 04:01:32 PM
So, you're a judge who is about to sentence a man who has raped over 40 young (not of age) girls, keeping many as sex slaves. What's your sentence? Death? Life without parole?

Ah, but wait -- he's a billionaire hedge fund owner! So I guess the right answer is 13 months (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-03-25/jeffrey-epstein-how-the-billionaire-pedophile-got-off-easy). Yep. It should be exceedingly trivial to find someone who got more than that for prostitution -- in other words, it's more ok to be a kiddie diddler than to have consensual sex for money, so long as the pedophile is rich.

My point is -- if you think America is anything but a plutocratic oligarchy, you're delusional. Normal people get the book thrown at them for having an ounce of pot. The rich can (possibly literally) get away with murder. And, just wait until the rich actually own the prisons. Sound crazy? It's already happening. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrections_Corporation_of_America)

Cliffs: "American Justice System" is an oxymoron. Discuss.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: PaperLuigi on March 26, 2011, 04:11:43 PM
"Fair representation is representation according to the amount of influence effectively exerted."~John Rawls

I agree with you one hundred percent. Just look at Buckley v. Valeo. In America, money speaks.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: Lizard Dude on March 26, 2011, 04:28:53 PM
"In America Everywhere, money speaks."

But yeah. I don't forsee much arguing in this thread.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: Luigison on March 26, 2011, 04:33:17 PM
/me is not delusional.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: PaperLuigi on March 26, 2011, 04:36:37 PM
But yeah. I don't forsee much arguing in this thread.

Turtlekid hasn't responded yet.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: Weegee on March 26, 2011, 04:47:18 PM
It's good to know that the Canadian judicial system is free of corporate corruption.

/whoamikidding
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: WarpRattler on March 26, 2011, 04:56:36 PM
Turtlekid may be literally insane, but even he doesn't defend pedophilia...

...right?
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: PaperLuigi on March 26, 2011, 05:03:01 PM
I highly doubt it. But I wager that he'll defend billionaires like the Koch Brothers who are actively working to take away bargaining rights from firemen and teachers.

Double standard lol
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: The Chef on March 26, 2011, 05:35:50 PM
I highly doubt Turtlekid would defend a point like those. Now you're just picking on him for no reason.

But I'm the mean-spirited one.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: PaperLuigi on March 26, 2011, 05:45:43 PM
I highly doubt Turtlekid would defend a point like those.

...I just said that he wouldn't.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: Turtlekid1 on March 26, 2011, 05:50:50 PM
What's your sentence?
Death, in all likelihood.

Cliffs: "American Justice System" is an oxymoron. Discuss.
Just like pretty much any justice system ever.  I'm not saying it's right, but is it really such a surprise?  And is it really fair to say that the system always fails?  Because it doesn't.  People like to single out America as such a cesspool of greed and imperialism and selfishness and whatever else, but what they fail to realize is that it's still better here than pretty much anywhere else in the world.

I highly doubt it. But I wager that he'll defend billionaires like the Koch Brothers who are actively working to take away bargaining rights from firemen and teachers.

Double standard lol
Taking away rights isn't their motive.  Stopping thugs who cheat, steal, and intimidate their way into power - all under the pretense of bargaining rights - is.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: CrossEyed7 on March 26, 2011, 05:58:29 PM
But I wager that he'll defend billionaires like the Koch Brothers who are actively working to take away bargaining rights from firemen and teachers.
Agreeing with FDR on the destabilizing effects of giving government workers the same collective bargaining rights as private sector workers = raping 40 children.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: PaperLuigi on March 26, 2011, 06:19:27 PM
Stopping thugs who cheat, steal, and intimidate their way into power - all under the pretense of bargaining rights - is.

Then why did he lie about it being a fiscal issue?
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: Turtlekid1 on March 26, 2011, 06:24:21 PM
...Because it is a fiscal issue?
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: PaperLuigi on March 26, 2011, 06:33:51 PM
If there is a budget crisis, why didn't he just cut tax breaks to millionaires and billionaires? Or something else? To me it seems like this is more about union busting than fixing a fiscal problem.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: Turtlekid1 on March 26, 2011, 06:38:15 PM
Because millionaires and billionaires create jobs and sign paychecks.  Their ability to do that is inversely proportional to how heavily they're taxed.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: PaperLuigi on March 26, 2011, 06:48:50 PM
No, demand creates jobs. Billionaires do whatever the **** they want with your job, which is why my uncle's got moved overseas.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: Turtlekid1 on March 26, 2011, 07:03:15 PM
But is that because billionaires are just big jerks who arbitrarily decide to outsource jobs, or because they don't have much of a choice thanks to excessive taxation and regulation?
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: ShadowBrain on March 26, 2011, 07:12:07 PM
Yeah, what is there to argue about here, really?
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: PaperLuigi on March 26, 2011, 07:30:48 PM
But is that because billionaires are just big jerks who arbitrarily decide to outsource jobs, or because they don't have much of a choice thanks to excessive taxation and regulation?

That's a false dichotomy. There are many other reasons for their outsourcing of jobs, man.

Also, I never accused billionaires of outsourcing jobs because they're "big jerks."
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: Turtlekid1 on March 26, 2011, 07:32:37 PM
Fair enough.  What do you think is the reason?
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: PaperLuigi on March 26, 2011, 07:35:20 PM
Some do it for tax breaks. Others do it to enhance innovation. And others do it because they feel they are excessively regulated. But there are reasons for that also.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: Insane Steve on March 26, 2011, 09:37:28 PM
Yeah, what is there to argue about here, really?

This thread wasn't so much intended to argue as it was to show exactly how ridiculously the rich can manipulate society.

But now that we're on the topic of unions...

[one moment please]

Also, I used to be a very strong supporter of the death penalty for rape cases -- except then I realised that if the penatly for rape and murder is the same, what's stopping people from killing their victims after they're done?
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: PaperLuigi on March 26, 2011, 10:12:36 PM
I'm against the death penalty entirely.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: Insane Steve on March 26, 2011, 10:47:16 PM
I still support it in murder cases where there is literally NO doubt the person did it. Like the Tuscon shooting, for instance. I used to be a lot more for it but then I took off the rose-colored glasses and saw just how ridiculously terribly the "justice" system is.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: PaperLuigi on March 26, 2011, 10:51:38 PM
I'm against it on the grounds that it seems absurd to kill a person to show other people that killing is wrong.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: Turtlekid1 on March 26, 2011, 11:19:51 PM
It's more to show other people that murder is wrong.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: PaperLuigi on March 26, 2011, 11:24:46 PM
What is murder anyway? I see no fundamental difference between a soldier "killing" an enemy overseas and a husband "murdering" his wife. They both result in the termination of the victim's biological functions, and in both cases the victim did not desire to have them ended.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: Insane Steve on March 27, 2011, 01:57:17 AM
What is murder anyway? I see no fundamental difference between a soldier "killing" an enemy overseas and a husband "murdering" his wife. They both result in the termination of the victim's biological functions, and in both cases the victim did not desire to have them ended.

And I actually agree with this -- there's no difference here. War (exception: WWII, and maybe the American Revolution) is bull[dukar]. Especially the two wars we have now, which are for all intents and purposes purely for profit nowadays. And, again, the rich profit off the blood of everyone else.

I'm referring to a person killing an innocent, and a person who killed said innocent being killed. I see a difference, I suppose you do not. Honestly the death penalty is like the only social issue I'm not obscenely left of center on so I feel weird being on the "right-wing" side of it.

And that's part of why I started this thread, also -- there's discussion on the death penalty, and unions (I'll get to this later, I have a fairly long-ish opinion which can be summarised to "I think in an ideal world union membership should be 100% voluntary, but in this world that's equivalent to unions just not existing altogether and I feel the needs of the people are more important than the needs of the very select elite.") -- so despite my OP not being particularly debatable there's debate nonetheless.

Isn't politics awesome? ... wait no it isn't :(
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: PaperLuigi on March 27, 2011, 03:21:17 AM
I just dislike killing in general. We're in the middle of a vast, cold, uncaring universe. The planet we inhabit is fairly small and could be swept away by a black hole as soon as tomorrow.

And yet some people want to spend their time killing others. This to me is the most disgusting aspect of humankind.

I'm referring to a person killing an innocent, and a person who killed said innocent being killed. I see a difference, I suppose you do not.

It's true that society has an interest in preventing a person from engaging in the harming of an innocent. But the mere fact that all of us, no matter how saintly, must surrender life in due time makes me hesitant to support such a measure.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: ShadowBrain on March 27, 2011, 08:46:43 AM
I think the death penalty should only be used as an option presented to those who are going to serve a life sentence(s).
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: coolkid on March 27, 2011, 11:27:28 AM
What is murder anyway? I see no fundamental difference between a soldier "killing" an enemy overseas and a husband "murdering" his wife. They both result in the termination of the victim's biological functions, and in both cases the victim did not desire to have them ended.

When a soldier kills another, he's fighting for other people as well. He's fighting for a cause. (Well, usually.) To murder your wife can pretty much only be out of selfishness purely, even if in both cases the murder probably didn't think of the suffering the victim's family would endure.

This is total BS, though.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: PaperLuigi on March 27, 2011, 12:29:35 PM
He's fighting for a cause. (Well, usually.)

Yeah okay. So that makes it totally okay right?
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: Weegee on March 27, 2011, 01:45:32 PM
Yeah okay. So that makes it totally okay right?

What about killing in self-defense? Or for an objectively good cause like freedom or liberation?

(In before someone argues against the existence of objective goodness, by the way.)
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: Turtlekid1 on March 27, 2011, 03:00:17 PM
coolkid came closest to the mark.  Killing is never pretty, and it often is done for evil reasons.  But it is necessary when done to preserve or defend life or freedom.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: PaperLuigi on March 27, 2011, 04:07:09 PM
"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or in the holy name of liberty or democracy?"~Gandhi

Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: Turtlekid1 on March 27, 2011, 04:22:18 PM
That depends on who wins.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: Weegee on March 27, 2011, 05:17:14 PM
At the risk of inciting Godwin's Law, what if the Allies had taken Gandhi's stance during World War II?
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: PaperLuigi on March 27, 2011, 07:27:37 PM
What if Hitler had taken Gandhi's stance?

Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: Weegee on March 27, 2011, 08:15:06 PM
Then everythikng would have been fine and dandy. But when evil will stop at nothing short of death, war becomes necessary.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: Insane Steve on March 28, 2011, 01:33:42 AM
...What have I done?
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: PaperLuigi on March 28, 2011, 02:12:35 AM
No, I'm done. At this point it's analogous to two brick walls staring at each other.

Also, I apologize for arguing with people on this forum because quite frankly I'm terrible at it.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: CrossEyed7 on March 28, 2011, 09:27:04 AM
No you're not.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: BP on March 28, 2011, 09:43:58 PM
Yes he is
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: PaperLuigi on March 28, 2011, 09:47:44 PM
You're both equally absurd to assert that you know.

lol
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: CoconutMikeNIke on March 29, 2011, 12:36:19 AM
Quote from: Norman Schwarzkopf
A professional soldier understands that war means killing people, war means maiming people, war means families left without fathers and mothers. All you have to do is hold your first dying soldier in your arms, and have that terribly futile feeling that his life is flowing out and you can't do anything about it. Then you understand the horror of war. Any soldier worth his salt should be antiwar. And still, there are things worth fighting for.
Title: Re: One set of laws for them... another for us.
Post by: A on April 01, 2011, 06:24:39 PM
If Hitler had been a pacifist, I imagine he'd be a very frustrated individual. He'd want to kill people, but he wouldn't allow himself to. Tons of internal conflict.

That could actually be an interesting novel, maybe. Or not.