Fungi Forums
Video Games => Mario Chat => Topic started by: The Chef on March 15, 2011, 01:25:53 AM
-
CrossEyed's post in that "Mario's parents" thread made me want to do something I've wanted to do forever: Start up a discussion about continuity and misconceptions in the Mario series.
So here's a thread where we can discuss inconsistencies, plotholes, explanations, fan theories, stuff about the characters' personalities and interactions, etc. etc.
And before the discussion begins, let me be the first to point out that yes, Mario DOES have continuity to some degree. It may not have an official timeline with a list of works considered "non-canon" like so many other franchises out there, but it DOES maintain some sort of connection from one game to the next, however lose they may be. It should also be noted that yes, the continuity of the games is seperate and distinct from the continuity of the cartoons, comics or Mario movie, largely because Nintendo and everyone within clearly doesn't acknowledge them anymore. (and I swear Chup, you come within three feet of this topic I'll swat you down)
So, for our first subject, Is Mario from Brooklyn?
By which I mean, should the idea of Mario being from Brooklyn be acknowledged as a part of his backstory or should it remain relegated to only the cartoons and movie?
-
Yoshi's Island DS implicitly introduces the possibility of a split timeline. Maybe in one timeline, Mario and Luigi get sent to Brooklyn when the Koopa Troop invades the Mushroom Kingdom (the classic Mario continuity -- including the movie and cartoons), and in the other, they spend their whole lives in the Mushroom World (the modern Mario continuity).
(Also, couldn't this be in Mariology (http://themushroomkingdom.net/board/index.php?topic=7155.0)?)
-
(Or in one of the many threads you locked?)
-
and in the other, they spend their whole lives in the Mushroom World (the modern Mario continuity)
It doesn't really explain their different attributes though (moustache, height, ability, accent), especially in relation to the other inhabitants of the Mushroom World.
I'm not familiar with the storyline in Yoshi's Island DS, so correct me if I'm being totally incorrect, but maybe it's possible that the Baby Mario & Luigi were sent to Brooklyn some time after the events of YIDS? It would explain how they got their accents, at the very least, and leaves the timeline open to a bit of flexibility with regards to how they (re?)discovered the Mushroom World.
-
It doesn't really explain their different attributes though (moustache, height, ability, accent), especially in relation to the other inhabitants of the Mushroom World.
Their cartoonish, exaggerated looks are normal for human males in the world they live in. The women are all supposed to be good-looking and were as such given more believable proportions--not uncommon for a cartoony setting. I'd expect that a human female character who was supposed to be ugly would be less realistic than Peach, Daisy and Rosalina. The rest of the men are even wackier-looking than the Mario Bros. Wario and Waluigi have the excuse of being twisted versions of Mario and Luigi, but E. Gadd provides a more concrete example.
Abilities: They're super for a reason. Don't talk to me about blue and yellow Toads though because I got nothin'
As for their accents? The ladies have American ones, the guys in overalls have Italian ones and Gadd has a... something.
I don't know what to make of that.
-
Let's not forget that there's plenty of other characters who have real world foreign accents, including Chef Torte, Cork and Cask, Broque Monsieur, Flavio, Cortez, Pa-Patch, Jonathan Jones, the moles of Moleville, the list goes on.
As for the thing about appearance, the people of WarioWare are an even more extreme example, but some fans seem to think that it doesn't place in the Mushroom World.
(Also, couldn't this be in Mariology (http://themushroomkingdom.net/board/index.php?topic=7155.0)?)
It could, but then nobody would read it.
(Or in one of the many threads you locked?)
Aren't you the one who talks about having MORE threads all the time?
-
Gadd is an old man. Any accent he once had has become an old man voice.
Not to say that the Mario series isn't any less epic, but let's not turn this into Zelda. There is no need for multiple timelines. There is/was a time machine at some point in the series (Partners in Time) so that explains some. I agree with Ultima Shadow though: maybe some events happened after events in the YI games. I also am not very familiar with the YIDS story, but I've heard enough about it to get the general idea.
They were sent to Brooklyn at some point in their very young lives (between YIDS and Donkey Kong) and then came back the Mushroom Kingdom (Mario Bros, Super Mario Bros).
-
I'm not familiar with the storyline in Yoshi's Island DS, so correct me if I'm being totally incorrect, but maybe it's possible that the Baby Mario & Luigi were sent to Brooklyn some time after the events of YIDS? It would explain how they got their accents, at the very least, and leaves the timeline open to a bit of flexibility with regards to how they (re?)discovered the Mushroom World.
That's pretty much what I was thinking with the split timeline.
Basically, the story of Yoshi's Island DS is that adult Bowser traveled back in time to find the seven Star Children (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Wario, Donkey Kong, and Yoshi, though Bowser doesn't know that), as whoever can collect all seven of them will rule the world or something. It's kinda like Star Trek 09. So let's say that in the YIDS timeline, things got dangerous more quickly because of adult Bowser showing up and shaking things up. Maybe Prince Bowser and/or Morton Sr. were inspired by future Bowser and launched a full-scale assault on the Mushroom Kingdom, causing Mr. and Mrs. Mario to send Mario and Luigi away to Earth where they would be safer. The queen of Sarasaland did the same with Daisy, leaving her to be raised by nuns at St. Teresa's. Twenty years later, Mario and Luigi, who run their own plumbing business, met Daisy and ended up back in the Mushroom Kingdom. Also, their mother seen on the Super Show is their adoptive Earth mother.
Can't explain where their accents come from in the unaltered timeline, though, other than "the same place as all the other real-world accents in Mario."
Aren't you the one who talks about having MORE threads all the time?
LD wants more threads, so he ought to support threads being locked?
-
Oh, oh, I got one
So apparently, according to a guide for Mario Kart Wii (I guess), Daisy is related to Peach now? A guide not directly made by Nintendo at that, but one Nintendo officially endorses/recognizes, so it's accepted as canon?
What
-
Ooh and here's a fan theory: Toad's Turnpike is actually HELL. For people who died in car crashes in the case that it was THEIR FAULT. Now they are punished by driving in an endless loop with no escape. Where it will never be safe to change lanes EVER.
In featureless cars and trucks.
And yeah those schoolbuses must be full of dead kids too
-
Maybe I should've said something about theories that actually would fit in the games, but that's actually pretty funny.
-
What relation did Mr. and Mrs. Mario have with the royal family? Because in Partners in Time, Babies Mario and Luigi are already having playdates with Baby Peach, even though the Mario family didn't seem to live in or particularly near the castle from what we saw in Yoshi's Island and Yoshi's Island DS.
-
According to Mario Wiki, Mario tells a character that he's from Brooklyn in Mario's Time Machine (though they don't specify whether that's in the PC or SNES version). The intro to the PC version of Mario is Missing (which, unlike the scene from MTM, is readily findable on YouTube) refers to Mario and Luigi as "those stouthearted pipefitters from New York," and Mario then says "Whaddya say we give Bowser the old Brooklyn one-two," to which Luigi responds "The Brooklyn what??? Hey, lookit, there's his pad. But the walls are awfully high. Say, M, I left my toothbrush back in the Big Apple." The MiM SNES manual also calls them "the brave brothers from Brooklyn."
Mario Wiki also says there's a reference to Mario growing up in Brooklyn in the Mario 64 Player's Guide, which would probably be considered a bit more canonical than the Software Toolworks series (still, though, they are in-game references). If anyone has it, can you check it and put up the exact quote?
-
Oh I remember that line. Fortunately, I return home today so I'll be able to find the quote in question.
-
Did you find it yet?
-
I wish I could find a source for this, but I recall reading a Miyamoto interview where Miyamoto basically said that each game, outside of clear sequels, can be considered it's own sort of reality, and are "all true at once".
Basically I took it to mean that as far as continuity we should look at it the same way we look at Looney Toons, or to put it another way reality and everyone's memories are constantly in flux and the only things in common for the most part are the personalities of the characters. In other words there's probably as much point in figuring out a timeline of the Mario games as there is trying to tie together "Duck A Muck" with "Duck Rabbit, Duck!".
-
I recall reading a Miyamoto interview where Miyamoto basically said that each game, outside of clear sequels, can be considered it's own sort of reality, and are "all true at once".
That's a fancy way of saying "I just don't give a ****."
-
Heh, though in all "seriousness" it's true that Mario is closer to a cartoon than something where continuity matters like Fire Emblem.
-
I thought Fire Emblem had a broken, "Another time, another place," continuity a la Final Fantasy or Breath of Fire
-
I don't get into the Fire Emblem stories as much as some fans, but from what I've put together from the games I have played, it all takes place in the same overall history, though generations apart. I can say that with Final Fantasy, officially, every game's story takes place in it's own separate universe with no connection except Dissidia and a few dimension hoppers like Gilgamesh (spinoffs of individual games are the exception, like FFX-2). I would bring up Zelda, but that's inviting trouble and I'm already guilty of derailing the thread a bit.
Back on topic, my thoughts are that general overarching ideas get carried from game to game, but I currently take the view that each game is it's own entity. The whole "it's like Looney Toons or Disney cartoons" thing puts things like Mario Tennis, Mario Party, Mario Kart, and all those other games into a different perspective. Those are just their own little worlds, kinda. While we're at it, one thing about the DKC series is how it breaks the 4th wall all the time. That sort of got into the Mario games too, with things like Donkey Kong being jealous of Mario's popularity and action figures and wanting to steal them all, or Wario starting his own video game company, and that sort of thing.
-
...So basically you posted in here just to say there's no point is discussing the topic at hand. Lovely. -___-
PS: Sorry CrossEyed, but I completely forgot about the SM64 guide. >.>
-
In any case, what is canon does not depend on continuity in the first place. Mario jumps, mushrooms power him (or his car) up, Piranha Plants like to live in pipes, Yoshi eats fruit, Wario likes money, E. Gadd likes ghosts, and coins float and spin. Whether or not the continuity is as elastic as a Saturday morning cartoon doesn't have too much to do with canon at all.
Okay, next theory: Rosalina is a heavy racer in Mario Kart Wii because she is fat! Opinions??
-
I thought it was because she was made of the same dense material found in a collapsed star.
-
...So basically you posted in here just to say there's no point is discussing the topic at hand. Lovely. -___-
My apologies. I didn't mean to come across that way. I just wanted to add my perspective on it. Are the Mario Bros. from Brooklyn? In my conception, I think of them as being from there in the first trilogy (since that's the idea I was getting as a kid from all those cartoons and such, and the original Donkey Kong gives a strong impression of that too considering the setting), then being from Mushroom Kingdom at least as of Yoshi's Island, and then it varies. Mario Galaxy, to me, is it's own story, as well as Mario Lands being self contained, and also the various Mario RPGs are their own iterations. Paper Mario is it's own little world (of paper) with connection between those games, and Super Mario RPG is again it's own entity. Super Mario 64 seems to stand alone as well, and this was especially notable considering that if you took it as a timeline, it's odd that Bowser had completely forgotten about teaming up with Mario, and how rather than 7 stars, there's a castle now with over 100 of them. That's fine though. I also imagine Mario "taking breaks" from gaming just to get an ear full from Wario about how much better than Mario he is.
Long story short, it's how I explain all those oddities that crop up thanks to Nintendo themselves basically ignoring any sense of continuity. This is as opposed to Sonic, where they actually do attempt to create a continuity but lately have just had the whole overly complicated thing collapse on itself since the audience has basically been lost since Sonic 3 & Knuckles.
This does kinda hinge on the idea that my recollection of that interview I failed to provide a link for is right, so feel free to dismiss it.
-
Okay, next theory: Rosalina is a heavy racer in Mario Kart Wii because she is fat! Opinions??
Yeah she needs to go on a diet. That skinny emo look isn't doing it for her. Time to go skeletal.
-
Dry Rosalina for MK3DS.
She's so HEAVYYYYYYYYYYY
-
Dry Baby Pararosalina (Outfit B)
Fixed that up for you :)
-
As for their accents? The ladies have American ones, the guys in overalls have Italian ones and Gadd has a... something.
I don't know what to make of that.
I think E.Gadd's accent is kind of...British...or something like that :/
-
Honestly, I thought Mario and Luigi were from Italy. In other games they're from Brooklyn? So what's their hometown? Brooklyn, Mushroom Kingdom, oe some town in Italy? Ugh, canon is comfusing. :/
-
They're not from Brooklyn in any existing game. At all. They're clearly seen being born in the Mushroom Kingdom in Yoshi's Island. Then they're clearly being raised there in Partners in Time.
Mario has only ever been shown to be from Brooklyn in the cartoons and movie. Nowhere else.
-
And Mario's Time Machine. And Mario is Missing. And the Mario 64 guide maybe.
-
I think the Brooklyn thing is pretty much canon. I'm not sure how it works, but the cartoon and movie had to have gotten the information from somewhere. You guys should read this:
Q: Mario is Italian. Or we assume he is Italian, was there something behind that?
As a kid, I was a big comic fan and I liked foreign comics as well. So I drew some characters that had more western type features with a little bigger noses and what not. Now with Mario, I think with Mario Bros. we had a setting of course that was underground, so I just decided Mario is a plumber. Let's put him in New York and he can be Italian. There was really no other deep thought other than that.
Source (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gamehunters/post/2010/11/qa-mario-creator-shigeru-miyamoto/1)
Nintendo of America probably told the people behind the cartoons and movie that was how Mario was, but who knows if this bit of NoA intention is still true in modern Mario canon.
-
Couldn't be bothered to tell 'em Bowser's name though eh
-
I have little reason to believe it's true anymore simply because they haven't acknowledged or utilized it in any way shape or form or for any reason since at least 1996 (where they mentioned Brooklyn in the Nintendo Power Player's Guide).
Tell me, what exactly does Mario being from Brooklyn add, if anything at all? I'm curious to know.
PS: You'll be glad to know I'm going home today. So hopefully this time I'll remember to dig the guide out.
-
If things about the Marioverse stop being true just because they get ignored for a while, then the events of Mario RPG never happened.
What it adds is an interesting backstory that gives him a more human connection with the player -- not that that has any bearing on whether it's canon or not.
-
Mario is relatable enough, thank you very much. He doesn't need a multilayered Square-Enix backstory to be "interesting". This is one of those cases where people want the franchise to be something it blatantly is not.
And you can't say they've totally ignored SMRPG. We got Shamans in both Paper Mario games, Geno in M&L, and both of those were based heavily on the gameplay of SMRPG. SMRPG is also one of the first games to feature Toad societies and the sense of humor that would become a mainstay in several later games in the series.
Mario being from Brooklyn is a hardly comparable concept. Especially when it was only ever featured heavily in media that most Mario fans would rather forget about.
-
It was in multiple games, multiple external Nintendo-approved sources, the TV shows, the movie, and in Miyamoto's own words. You can't just write all that off.
The movie even implicitly resolves the issue of Baby Mario and Luigi being seen in the Mushroom Kingdom -- their parents took them to Earth when they were young to escape the Koopas, which itself resolves the issue of Mario's apparent two mothers.
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F1%2F1f%2FMarioparents.PNG&hash=7651ffe7bc5e24eb786b0c61af2e1a478b1ad535) and (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F9%2F9a%2FNCS_Mama_Mario.jpg&hash=8b001829478d7cd05a60791cd4048a1c6a2e60ca)
are obviously not the same person as
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F1%2F1d%2FMamaMiaMario.jpg&hash=80d3cbd95cd2380344ca4cd2d4b57a205ff50a34)
Albanomama is Mario and Luigi's Italian adoptive mother; Skinnymom is their biological Mushroom Kingdom human mother.
Where's the fun in putting together a Mario canon if you completely ignore the TV shows, the movie, the books, and the older or less popular games?
-
I'm not really taking this all that seriously, but for fun and curiosity I'll ask this. Does the Mushroom Kingdom have any modern skyrise cities? That is, some place for Donkey Kong to run around and smash girders on high rises?
-
Mushroom City. Big Ape City. Diamond City. Those are the first three that come to mind. There are also numerous other unamed cities that appear in the background of various locations, but those could just as well be any of the above three.