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Video Games => Mario Chat => Topic started by: CrossEyed7 on September 10, 2011, 05:10:52 AM

Title: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: CrossEyed7 on September 10, 2011, 05:10:52 AM
First, I'll quote that post I made in another thread:

Quote from: CrossEyed7 on August 07, 2011, 09:29:05 PM
The M&L in-game art has been feeling a bit off to me lately. I guess everything just feels unnecessarily big and spread-out in BIS. Sprites are high-res, but with no added detail; they're just big. The sprites and the map layouts in SS felt much tighter and less clumsy.

I also don't like how the series has become less stylistic. In SS, everything was drawn in an original style, but in PiT and BIS, all the sprites feel like they're just traced from the 3D renders.

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/mariopedia/sprites/mlss/bowser.png) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F2%2F29%2FBowser_MLRPG2_Sprite.png&hash=c1653acf9342a13c6ebe4518369e7f864a867497) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F4%2F40%2FBowserAnimation.gif&hash=52325d0daeaf9b919f07a462a5af18b4b707fdf3)

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fcd%2FHammerbrosprite65.png&hash=912903cbdcfa50fbf6a93bd38cf6b848593aa230) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F5%2F5b%2FL33t_Hamm3r_Broz_Sprite.png&hash=a04241188fa48506fd6c6fa0efc7e3d0a692b1a5)

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F6%2F69%2FGoomba_SSS.png&hash=696bc53176783c2302c501d31b467cf548015563) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F9%2F9c%2FGoomba_Pit.png&hash=772f19c9395fab7702da1303bf44eb5826aea6d8)

It's also noticeable in the color scheme -- M&L had a rather distinct palette, giving it a coherent, unified theme, while PiT and BIS just use the big bright official colors for everything, and it's just kinda all over the place.

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fc6%2FLuigidance.gif&hash=bad860a0913433cb07a8c3b33805c298e6bdd5b3) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fd%2Fdf%2FLuigistandrpg3.gif&hash=65a72f836bfa80dabbfb3b7d2beb35733f3b279b) For some reason, though, PiT and BIS turn Luigi blue. But the dancing is still good.

Hopefully a sprite-based console version would get them thinking more stylistically again.

You know, I'd really like to see a game (maybe an RPG) based on the cartoons and comic books. Except good.

I was reminded of this when I saw just now that Paper Mario 3DS is now apparently changing the Dry Bones to look more like they do everywhere else. Observe:

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F4%2F43%2F29._Dry_Bones_Card.PNG&hash=02789184d6ed967c4a25fa7a0e3f947fa6142daf)

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fc6%2FPM3DS13.png&hash=47eeff93e43b266151b762cbddf1ae5b91018ef9)

This probably shouldn't annoy me as much as it does, but it does. I mean, is it just me, or are all the Mario games starting to converge a little too much?

Compare the Koopalings in Superstar Saga to their unused sprites in Super Princess Peach (which, incidentally, is possibly the most graphically generic Mario game yet):

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fe%2Feb%2FKoopalings_MandLSS.PNG&hash=b83abf7a4e966deeffdc8769cfc110e050db85df)
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F7%2F7e%2FKoopalingsSPP.PNG&hash=262281c168d8b644aab7c46a9314f305fcd7f787)

Or how Yoshi's Island DS smoothed out all the pixels and made things just too smooth, largely removing the pen-and-ink-and-crayon motif. Kinda like when they try to restore old black and white movies to put them on DVD using algorithms to find and erase all the dust on the film, and the algorithm goes too far and ends up erasing all the film grain too and it doesn't look like film anymore, it just looks like overly smooth, generic video.

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/images/ss/ss_smw2_05.gif) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F3%2F3b%2FYi2screen1.jpg&hash=6b6b81b38920a6be57ecae6da64bea7fa3073a44)

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/images/ss/ss_smw2_08.gif) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F8%2F8a%2FYidscreen8.jpg&hash=6d1cdf058a8379e754a690edc0ade499428babd2)

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/images/ss/ss_smw2_06.gif) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F0%2F0b%2FYidscreen9.jpg&hash=58336ec19e0f9285ced27a0f5354d9816934a854)

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/images/ss/ss_smw2_04.gif) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F9%2F96%2FYidscreen10.jpg&hash=f678391ab1fb3e07509927d4ba1fc84fc7d6a177)

In addition to the standard enemies all looking the same, Bowser's Inside Story, Super Paper Mario, Yoshi's Island DS, and Super Princess Peach also all seem very proud of the fact that they are at higher resolutions than SNES games, and therefore can make bigger smoother images without pixelization. And so that's all they do is make stuff that's not pixelated. I miss pixels.

It's in the 3D games too. When Galaxy came out, I liked that we had a 3D Mario game where everything looked the way it was supposed to, but now, I'm actually starting to miss Sunshine's uniqueness. And I've never like Sunshine's graphical style. But at least it had a style. And is there any more generic-looking Mario game than NSMBWii?

I'm overreacting a bit, but back me up on this, guys. Isn't it all starting to look too standardized? Too samey?
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: pikmaniac on September 10, 2011, 08:21:33 AM
Another game I'm reminded of that I've noticed this with is Mario Kart. Compare the mushroom item in MKW to the mushroom art from Double Dash.
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.gamespotcdn.net%2Fgamespot%2Fimages%2F2008%2F134%2Freviews%2F942008_20080514_embed006.jpg&hash=1907c5e923f811d7c9a624813c6b7b99a36cd36d)

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giantbomb.com%2Fuploads%2F0%2F1169%2F180360-supermushroom_thumb.jpg&hash=cdca150b3529eaf3733bc30f4b8cff1fc439f500)

Sorry, I can't find a decent screenshot of Double Dash with the mushroom, so I'll just add this, which is actually what it looked like for both Double Dash and MKDS.
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mario-kart.net%2Fimages%2Fmkds%2Fitems%2Fmushrooms.jpg&hash=6bff2b0a024a10d425d26bc0decb921a99a78f20)


Also, may I just say that I miss these little guys? (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_gHO9tVgrK1o%2FSZzHFDmk-qI%2FAAAAAAAAA00%2FtvTbYSowsDs%2Fs400%2Fsmwgoomba.gif&hash=e4e5b094165fbda2ba1e154516f2aa4ba45ecca9)

Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: jdaster64 on September 10, 2011, 08:47:09 AM
In a similar vein to the Dry Bones pic in CE7's post,
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F4%2F4d%2FPM3DS20.png&hash=16e7bf8f2c44f8c5506afdc8b98dbcc11427a254)
>:(

I never cared for Buzzy Beetles' NSMB design, but changing the PM design to match it is indeed going way too far.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: BP on September 10, 2011, 11:11:23 AM
I don't think there's anything wrong with the Galaxies or News but

@Paper Mario: wat.

Wat.

"But BP weren't you saying you wanted something new instead of Paper Mario"

Yeah, new, not a combination of two olds
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: The Chef on September 10, 2011, 11:54:18 AM
I guess Nintendo's trying to make the Mario franchise graphically consistent for the sake of it's newfound "casual" audience.

'Course it still bugs me. I want MORE unique looking Mario games, not LESS. ALL the spin-offs should have their own graphical style! Look at Luigi's Mansion! Look at Super Mario Strikers! We need more of THOSE!
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: CrossEyed7 on September 10, 2011, 12:56:14 PM
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F4%2F43%2F17._Buzzy_Beetle_Card.PNG&hash=8ef07ec6c82b24440fa56f87aa3634d57672ea73)
RIP, cute Buzzy design. *snif*


(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F1%2F1d%2FPM3DS_nsmbw_grassland.png&hash=a3eb4f9bc9d743f4cc295b6b8a0e70e75291168a) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F4%2F4a%2FPaperMarioFrogSuit.png&hash=91dd95a079820f08c336ee8be9258af65f89c8b1)
Oh, look, it's NSMBW World 1.

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F8%2F8e%2FWigglerPM3DS.PNG&hash=c9949ed3562b8e19c158fd04472ff3062baf437f)
And World 5.

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F4%2F4e%2FPM3DS_volcanoland.png&hash=e8a015c4dcbbbdd787f6abc8373f7ac1f05fc6c5)
And World 6.

Compare the Goombas in an early screenshot to a more recent one:
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F8%2F8a%2FGoombaPM3DS.PNG&hash=8bdd569b22addae4647f326118112c30f8c28f17)
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2Fc%2Fc9%2FPM3DS23.png%2F640px-PM3DS23.png&hash=cf150da5975f97324256751e6a5fbf5e782309ad)
Because we simply can't have people thinking Goomba's eyes are slightly bigger than they're supposed to be or that their skin is a slightly lighter Pantone shade.
Also notice that in both shots, the enemy Koopa Troopas are not wearing sunglasses.

Look at Spinies:

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F7%2F77%2FSpiny_PMTTYD.png&hash=2c96a8722845aa23d3213ec7078d07f9f2754e40)
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fc0%2FPM3DS18.png&hash=fb39a9bda6c0e24c5da7d6cf1546649efeb7cf22)

Look at the blocks! Apparently after E3, the development team got a memo that their blocks were too different, and people would get confused.

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fb%2Fb6%2FPaperMario3ds2.PNG&hash=7612c398454b302991f6429b25adef49ca27e1cc)
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fcc%2FPM3DS12.png&hash=72ecac5f4f4a284544b5e2628df9e7a38fe52e63)


A Brief Block History

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Ff%2Ff1%2FPaper_Block.png&hash=78de5f8038212e9fbbc70c42660a2fd22e73e536)
Paper Mario
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fa%2Fa6%2FPM3DS_%253Fblock.png&hash=8a3c9ffa081800c8c428068f2480154d88efc8f0)
Paper Mario 3DS



(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F7%2F7a%2FBlock_Superstar_Saga.png&hash=1bb2dcd41488ad90d734f01f8001b36e236fe686)
Superstar Saga
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fa%2Fa1%2FMario_Luigi_Bowser_Story_Block.png&hash=96a49fa8cfd8487448ae96acb6de2e1e8199ca40)
Bowser's Inside Story



(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F0%2F02%2FQuestion_Block_NSMB.png%2F150px-Question_Block_NSMB.png&hash=c9c44af1b964d0006d7fa355a38af9949644257f) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F9%2F95%2FQuestionMarkBlockNSMB.png&hash=7201130d5c72f3715f33b31db68173de64771202) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F9%2F91%2FGalaxy_QuestionBlock.jpg%2F150px-Galaxy_QuestionBlock.jpg&hash=4f3a98dd122d875abc6c6b1e5de2ab02835edd91) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Ff%2Ffc%2F%253FBlock.png&hash=cb687877f9eddd3852209872df81be760de4783f) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F7%2F75%2FQuestion_Block_3D.png&hash=057533e9b9591b3664badd458c81574cbe402f09)
Everything since 2005

Hmph. I need to go play TTYD again.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: BP on September 10, 2011, 02:26:58 PM
I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that "it's something we don't like so it must be the casuals' fault" but [darn] is Captain Bad Ideas directing this or what

Also to be perfectly fair, not all enemy Koopas in SPM wore shades
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Weegee on September 10, 2011, 02:30:45 PM
I prefer enemy Koopas without sunglasses, to be honest. But otherwise, I completely agree with CE's qualms.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: CrossEyed7 on September 10, 2011, 02:38:05 PM
I think in SPM the thing was that Bowser's Koopas didn't have shades and Bleck's Koopas did. Or something. Although I think Bowser's Koopas still attacked Bowser if you went back to those levels with him, which would be an uncharacteristic lapse of attention to detail for the series.

I kinda like them better without shades too, but it seems to represent a larger disregard for the previous games' art style, as well as a growing unlikeliness that Mario will have partners that are actual characters (see: the generic Chain Chomp partner in all the screenshots). And really, for me, that was always the best part of PM and TTYD -- feeling like Mario's world is an actual place with actual people in it, hinting at all the interactions and issues and the details of day-to-day life in a world with sentient Goombas and Koopas and Bullet Bills.

It's one thing to change the art style from the way things looked in the SNES and N64 games, where you could argue that between technical limitations and lack of standardized looks and lack of communication between development teams, they weren't really supposed to look like that. But you can't make that argument to change the way things look from SPM. There was no technical reason that SPM couldn't have had Dry Bones with Koopa-shaped heads and yellow eyes, and Intelligent Systems had no lack of access to the big box of 3D models and renders and standard-bearing diagrams that show how Dry Boneses look. It was fully a conscious artistic choice in 2006 to keep the Dry Boneses looking like that.

I don't think Nintendo really thinks grannies are going to look at Dry Bones in Super Sluggers and then look at Dry Bones in SPM and go "WTD? I AM CONFUSED ARE THESE THE SAME CHARACTER? IF THEY ARE THE SAME WHY DO THEY LOOK DIFFERENT I DO NOT LIKE THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT THIS DOES NOT SQUARE WITH MARIO CANON!"

But I guess they just want everything to look like NSMB so that everyone who bought that will get tricked into buying all the other games too.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: CrossEyed7 on September 10, 2011, 03:08:41 PM
Also:

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F1%2F14%2FMLSSDryBones.PNG&hash=be8bd1b7f6e42ad70ca38d3d421823c55467e192) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F0%2F0a%2FGaron.gif&hash=846c4f5ee2b0227a403d9163a325b1dd6c7cc621)
Dry Bones in Superstar Saga

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fa%2Fa6%2FMl2_drybones.png&hash=97cf2869a610702d82417baa368284b47a799f2b)
Dry Bones in Partners in Time



(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F6%2F60%2FTanoomba.png&hash=dcd358e79055decc7c7b90311e85f4a012acc97b) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fa%2Fac%2FPiT_Tanoomba.png&hash=b921086fac52c3ffd04386608bfb343a8b97b71a)
Tanoombas in Superstar Saga and Partners in Time

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fa%2Fa7%2F3DS_SuperMario_7_scrn07_E3.png&hash=909482da9938632887b90cbeb96aabad291e56b2)
Tanoombas in 3D Land
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Turtlekid1 on September 10, 2011, 03:10:12 PM
I have mixed feelings.  On the one hand, I like consistency with character designs; but on the other hand, I also like unique and stylized designs like what one finds in the spinoffs.  So... I don't know.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: BP on September 10, 2011, 06:23:26 PM
The Koopa Troopas in the Galaxies are a mystery here
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Ultima Shadow on September 10, 2011, 07:35:59 PM
This, in my eyes, justifies the need for a Mario game that does something completely new and original with the visual aesthetic. It could just be a one-off or whatever, but I'd love to see a grittier, more realistic Mario game, maybe with a different starring character and a more involved story but still a distinctly Mario feel (eg: not Brawl's strangely unsmiling Mario). Not saying that Mario should go down the Shadow the Hedgehog or Final Fantasy path, but it would provide an invigorating change for a series that is becoming visually and conceptually stagnant.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Toad on September 10, 2011, 09:36:51 PM
Next Level GAmes should handle a Mario platformer sometime. They've already done a pair of spinoffs and are a doing a 3DS sequel, so let's see how they would do with a platformer.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: BP on September 11, 2011, 06:44:16 PM
They should make Mario wear his old blue shirt and red 'vralls again. For an entire game, except when using color-changin' power-ups. With no given explanation.

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsmaaaash.net%2Fdrawn%2Fallstarsmario.png&hash=9ff2e0a65e8699a4e3e1f779236465185be15f2a)

For the curious, this image (from Brawl) is the result of a very VERY minor vertex mod I made to change the shape of Mario's mouth and the angles of his eyebrows (which I went on to make multiple recolors of), an animation mod I made that makes him open his mouth much more often. For the uncurious, GO AWAYYYYYYYYYYYY
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Weegee on September 11, 2011, 06:53:12 PM
I wondered what that gaping wound below his moustache was.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Luigison on September 11, 2011, 07:06:32 PM
Quote from: BP on September 11, 2011, 06:44:16 PM
They should make Mario wear his old blue shirt and red 'vralls again. For an entire game, except when using color-changin' power-ups. With no given explanation.

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsmaaaash.net%2Fdrawn%2Fallstarsmario.png&hash=9ff2e0a65e8699a4e3e1f779236465185be15f2a)

For the curious, this image (from Brawl) is the result of a very VERY minor vertex mod I made to change the shape of Mario's mouth and the angles of his eyebrows (which I went on to make multiple recolors of), an animation mod I made that makes him open his mouth much more often. For the uncurious, GO AWAYYYYYYYYYYYY
That's more awesome than 27 hot ladies.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Weegee on September 11, 2011, 07:14:56 PM
How about 28 hot ladies, and a dinosaur with machine guns for arms?
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: jdaster64 on September 11, 2011, 08:37:19 PM
I wish Nintendo would do that radical an art shift for a main-series platformer, complete with MK-ized photo-realistic backgrounds and the like.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: BP on September 11, 2011, 08:49:17 PM
ew blugh blargh blagh bluh blorph bloog blah puke
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Weegee on September 11, 2011, 09:08:22 PM
I second that regurgitation.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: bobbysq1337 on September 11, 2011, 09:09:07 PM
I can see mainstream Mario games looking the same for comfort (to players) and consistancy reasons, but touching Paper Mario is going way to far.

"You know, I've been thinking. When Nintendo gives Paper Mario NSMB designs, don't play the game. Make Nintendo take the designs back! I don't want your [darn] NSMB designs, what am I supposed to do with these! Demand to see Nintendo's manager! Make Nintendo rue the day it thought it could give Paper Mario NSMB designs! Do you know who I am! I'm the man who's going to burn Nintendo HQ down! With the games. I am going to have my engineers invent a combustable game cart that will burn Nintendo HQ down!"

-bobbysq,
Founder of Mario Science
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: BP on September 11, 2011, 10:07:33 PM
I'm already thinking I don't want it, but it's more because of the apparent lack of... well, anything. There's still time to change but it's been a disturbingly long time and still no characters.

Were the Pixls supposed to be a gentle step down from awesome characters to no characters, as opposed to a plummeting drop? 'Cause I'm still feeling the vertigo
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: jdaster64 on September 11, 2011, 10:45:28 PM
I guess what you have to consider concerning the Paper Mario art shift is that it wasn't really clear what the vast majority of the enemies in Paper Mario's actual designs were prior to the original's release.  Besides a very few common enemies such as Goombas, Koopas, and the like, not many of the enemies had 3D models at the time, and many of the enemies hadn't appeared in a game for at least half a decade.

Take Buzzy Beetles, for example; I can't think of any game after All-Stars (although not a new game, it did implement some of the newer enemy designs and add some of its own) that had Buzzy Beetles in it, and what previously existing design do the Paper Mario Buzzy Beetles most closely resemble?  I'd say the SMAS-SMB ones, even if the palette's more reminiscent of SMAS-SMB3/SMW.  The only major difference is that PM's Buzzy Beetles don't have sclerae, but then again, neither does Mario.  When NSMB came around, it had the first official 3D rendering of a Buzzy Beetle (at the very least, the first in-game model), so I guess that could be a valid reason why they changed it in PM3DS, even if it doesn't resemble most in-game earlier designs.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: CrossEyed7 on September 12, 2011, 11:09:31 AM
Actually, the old Buzzy artwork doesn't look too far off from the NSMB look. As best as I can tell, the cute rounded mouthless head sticking out in PM (and the claws/toenails) was pretty much unprecedented.

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F8%2F8b%2FSMB_BuzzyBeetle.jpg&hash=7c841a05e09a67ade5b34216580c7e298670211b) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F3%2F36%2FSMB2_Buzzy_Beetle.png&hash=7dfd12dc7e10a46ec93ca0517bf08230d79ee039) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F8%2F8f%2FBuzzyBeetleNew.jpg%2F200px-BuzzyBeetleNew.jpg&hash=ccb16ca1b6bf9cba2009daf2a4d4646605785eeb)

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fb%2Fbf%2FBuzzy_Beetle2.PNG&hash=a97f822abfe58cf16712d21d08f6ddf90c0da5d9)

As for Dry Boneses, in SMB3's artwork, they looked almost exactly like they did in SS, and then in SMW, they revised the artwork to look more like the sprite and then revised the sprite to look more like the new artwork, and both PM and the current Dry Bones look are based off it.

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2Fb%2Fbb%2FSMB3_DryBones.jpg%2F640px-SMB3_DryBones.jpg&hash=8790328bc665ab3961f05b02173618752feda13d) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F1%2F14%2FMLSSDryBones.PNG&hash=be8bd1b7f6e42ad70ca38d3d421823c55467e192) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F0%2F0a%2FGaron.gif&hash=846c4f5ee2b0227a403d9163a325b1dd6c7cc621)

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F9%2F90%2FDry_Bones_SMW.png&hash=4c363f7dbe2aef9034559e1ec7c689c3ece000c7) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F0%2F05%2FDry_Bones.png&hash=a17a9dd0b1c8b0e1e9b87ff9952b919a63c46c9e) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F9%2F9d%2FPaper_Dry_Bones.png&hash=30266bc4c6b6be21ea4f3ab493f7a06e98438ef1)

However, Dry Bones's current look was established at least as early as Mario Superstar Baseball, only one year after TTYD and nearly two years before SPM.

Also, while the white eyes and red shoes could be things that they just copied from the SMW artwork and now they're officially a different color, the tooth shape and the hairs didn't come from anywhere else; those were pure artistic decisions. Which have now been wiped out.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Fawful Fan on September 12, 2011, 12:09:10 PM
Quote from: CrossEyed7 on September 10, 2011, 03:08:41 PM
Also:

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F1%2F14%2FMLSSDryBones.PNG&hash=be8bd1b7f6e42ad70ca38d3d421823c55467e192) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F0%2F0a%2FGaron.gif&hash=846c4f5ee2b0227a403d9163a325b1dd6c7cc621)
Dry Bones in Superstar Saga

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fa%2Fa6%2FMl2_drybones.png&hash=97cf2869a610702d82417baa368284b47a799f2b)
Dry Bones in Partners in Time



(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F6%2F60%2FTanoomba.png&hash=dcd358e79055decc7c7b90311e85f4a012acc97b) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fa%2Fac%2FPiT_Tanoomba.png&hash=b921086fac52c3ffd04386608bfb343a8b97b71a)
Tanoombas in Superstar Saga and Partners in Time

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fa%2Fa7%2F3DS_SuperMario_7_scrn07_E3.png&hash=909482da9938632887b90cbeb96aabad291e56b2)
Tanoombas in 3D Land
Actually, those aren't Tanoombas, just Goombas with tails.  Another example of Nintendo blatantly going out of their way to not acknowledge the Mario RPGs.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: jdaster64 on September 12, 2011, 01:48:45 PM
Quote from: CrossEyed7 on September 12, 2011, 11:09:31 AM
Actually, the old Buzzy artwork doesn't look too far off from the NSMB look. As best as I can tell, the cute rounded mouthless head sticking out in PM (and the claws/toenails) was pretty much unprecedented.

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F8%2F8b%2FSMB_BuzzyBeetle.jpg&hash=7c841a05e09a67ade5b34216580c7e298670211b) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F3%2F36%2FSMB2_Buzzy_Beetle.png&hash=7dfd12dc7e10a46ec93ca0517bf08230d79ee039) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F8%2F8f%2FBuzzyBeetleNew.jpg%2F200px-BuzzyBeetleNew.jpg&hash=ccb16ca1b6bf9cba2009daf2a4d4646605785eeb)

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fb%2Fbf%2FBuzzy_Beetle2.PNG&hash=a97f822abfe58cf16712d21d08f6ddf90c0da5d9)

Yeah, I did realize that the NSMB model looks a lot like the old artwork, but if you look at the sprite from SMAS-SMB, SMAS being the most recent game to have Buzzies prior to PM, there's quite a bit more of a resemblance.
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F8%2F8d%2FBuzzy_SMAS.png&hash=829b9659a8faac4ae65b8b2eb51526ed9938fef2)

The toenails were previously present in the SMW incarnation, I believe.  At least, there appears to be a couple white pixels on its feet.
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F7%2F77%2FBuzzy_SMW.png&hash=62310ef133e8174c505b3bf0edc4d3ce1a77acaa)

Plus, the cuter design could also have been largely borrowed from SMB3's Buster Beetle (http://www.mariowiki.com/images/1/16/SMB3_BusterBeetle.jpg) or Para-Beetle art (http://www.mariowiki.com/images/f/ff/SMB3_Parabeetle.jpg), both of which are largely reflected in their respective SMB3 sprites (as much as can be in a 16x16 space, at any rate).

At any rate, it would seem that prior to NSMB, there were about an equal amount of depictions of either design, and the "cute" one fit better in Paper Mario's artistic style.  But now that I come to think of it, how is it that the PM3DS Buzzy Beetle design got changed, while Parabeetles in NSMBW kept their old design (http://www.mariowiki.com/images/6/6a/Parabeetle_Sprite.png)?
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: CrossEyed7 on September 12, 2011, 03:20:51 PM
It looks like regular Buzzies looked like that too, now that I check the manual:

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-pDT06DqJX6U/Tm5uccns5vI/AAAAAAAAF7U/63YEB5h0-yE/s800/Capture.PNG)

So the cute look is from SMB3's artwork and the scary look is from SMB1's. And for some reason, all depictions of Buzzies are now required to follow the SMB1 look.

The sprites are a bit more ambiguous, but yeah, I can see how PM could've based it off of them too. Combination of the SMAS-SMB shell shape, the SMW toenails, and the SMB3 artwork face.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Luigison on September 13, 2011, 04:27:25 PM
Quote from: Weegee on September 11, 2011, 07:14:56 PM
How about 28 hot ladies, and a dinosaur with machine guns for arms?
Heh.  I expected such a reply.  I also think BP saw what I did there.

I would like to see a "new" SMB with objects, enemies, etc in the NES SMB retro style like Capcom did with Mega Man 9. 
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Toad on September 13, 2011, 05:20:28 PM
But Mario using an arm canon would look funny.

I wonder what an Nes styled game that mashes up all the Nes Mario games would be like..? Potentially awesome if done right.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: BP on September 13, 2011, 05:23:33 PM
> Creeping graphical sameyness

> Solution is to join the gaggle of indie clowns who think that the key to making any video game better is to pretend it's 1980


groannnnnnn
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: bobbysq1337 on September 13, 2011, 05:27:50 PM
Quote from: BP on September 13, 2011, 05:23:33 PM
> Creeping graphical sameyness

> Solution is to join the gaggle of indie clowns who think that the key to making any video game better is to pretend it's 1980


groannnnnnn
Hey, don't talk about Minecraft that way!
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: CrossEyed7 on September 13, 2011, 05:48:27 PM
Yeah, I'd rather have a new sprite-based game... but not with the standardized generic boring SPP/YIDS/BIS/PM3D sprites either (which is what would probably happen). New ones.

What I really want to see is a Vanillaware sidescrolling action RPG set in a universe based on the comics and TV shows (and a little of the movie thrown in) with Herman Smirch as one of the main villains.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: BP on September 13, 2011, 07:13:48 PM
/me talks about Minecraft that way!
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: The Chef on September 13, 2011, 08:58:45 PM
Cross Eyed's been pretty obsessed with the Mario cartoons lately, hasn't he?
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: CrossEyed7 on September 13, 2011, 09:32:21 PM
I haven't watched the cartoons in a while, and I've mostly only read the Game Boy comics (which I just bought physical copies of online a couple weeks ago). I just really love the whole Herman Smirch story arc.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: CrossEyed7 on September 13, 2011, 09:45:02 PM
I also like the movie, in a way.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Lizard Dude on September 13, 2011, 10:50:15 PM
Minecraft is so non-80's it's not even funny.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: bobbysq1337 on September 13, 2011, 11:05:21 PM
Quote from: Lizard Dude on September 13, 2011, 10:50:15 PM
Minecraft is so non-80's it's not even funny.
Fine, 90's
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Toad on September 13, 2011, 11:20:13 PM
Quote from: BP on September 13, 2011, 05:23:33 PM
> Creeping graphical sameyness

> Solution is to join the gaggle of indie clowns who think that the key to making any video game better is to pretend it's 1980


groannnnnnn

While that's not neccesarily a bad approach, I don't think that way. I think the way things are going now is just fine. A new sprite based game that didn't look like New SMB would be awesome, but the New SMB games are allright, even if they all have that graphical sameyness.

Mario Parties 6,7, and 8 looked very similar to eachother too..
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Kimimaru on September 14, 2011, 10:39:01 AM
I agree with Toad. However, I would like the PM and M&L games to keep their unique style. Another Mario game that had its own style would be great too, but honestly I'd be fine if they kept the NSMB style.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Luigison on September 14, 2011, 06:04:26 PM
Quote from: Luigison on September 13, 2011, 04:27:25 PM
I would like to see a "new" SMB with objects, enemies, etc in the NES SMB retro style like Capcom did with Mega Man 9.

Quote from: BP on September 13, 2011, 05:23:33 PM
> Creeping graphical sameyness

> Solution is to join the gaggle of indie clowns who think that the key to making any video game better is to pretend it's 1980


groannnnnnn

The style may not necessarily make the games better, but most of the new retro games I've enjoyed also have tight and enjoyable game-play. 

I'm not saying to limit the games to NES characters.  Why not have Hooktail, Shadow Queen, Fawful or new enemies, objects, and friends, but in NES SMB/SMB3 style? 

New SMB DS and Wii are good games, but we haven't seen an NES styled Nintendo game in a long time.  Instead Nintendo has been merging 3D models.  Using a new version of the NES/8-bit style would be a departure from the current graphical sameness even if it is a trade off to the old graphical sameness. 

Just because I want an old style game doesn't mean I don't want something new.  Sunshine isn't without fault, but it is one of my favorite games and that may be in part because of its departure from the series.  Superstar Sage is also one of my favorites and part of that is due to the humor and new moves.  I can imagine a simultaneous 2-player SMB/SMB3 styled game in which Mario jumps on Luigi to stomp him through brick blocks or Luigi grabs Mario to throw him to a higher platform. 

tldr; an 80's style game doesn't have to be stuck in the 80's
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: billy chilly on September 21, 2011, 09:33:04 AM
I'm not so much worried about "sameyness" as I am games that are just bland looking.  Super Princess Peach, Bowser's Inside Story and Yoshi's Island DS just have blah art design, and I don't think it has that much to do with sticking to "official" character designs.  The Galaxy games stick to "official" character looks, but they're visually astonishing.  I love the look of both NSMBs too, and 3D Land is shaping up beautifully.  I think Nintendo just needs to put more effort/artistry into their sprite-based 2D games.  I think you could probably lump Donkey Kong King of Swing in with SPP, YIDS and BIS for having pretty blah art design.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: The Chef on September 21, 2011, 12:42:08 PM
DK KoS stands out compared to previous DK games since it has the soft cartoony style rather than the usual pre-rendered 90s CGI.

I say that DKC Returns has the best art direction of any DK game to date though.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Kimimaru on September 21, 2011, 11:42:50 PM
I'm actually fine with the art style of Yoshi's Island DS, Bowser's Inside Story, and etc. I'd just like to see something new.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: nintendoclassic on September 25, 2011, 11:05:57 AM
Come on Nintendo, why not use more unique character designs for the Mario series especially for games like paper Mario.
The difference between characters gives a feeling like theres more out there then what we already have seen in other Mario games.
Personally I like to see dry bones look different in Paper Mario then in all the other mario games.
Same goes for the Blocks.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: CrossEyed7 on October 10, 2011, 12:09:37 AM
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F3%2F3a%2FPaperMario_Items_FireFlower.png&hash=a489e3dd9aca8f97e6f1024b8773f953d9b0d76f)
Paper Mario

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F2%2F25%2FFireFlowerTTYD.PNG&hash=d4561e980f7b7bfe776338e10807ce2036102f7f)
Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/images/ss/papermario-3ds/017.jpg)
Paper Mario 3D

This is actually a nice transition, keeping the same colors and everything, but it still bugs me. I've always preferred the SMW Flower design, personally.

(The POW Block is also different)
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: The Chef on October 10, 2011, 11:56:13 AM
Upon closer inspection, the mushroom in that screen looks a tad different than the previous PM games as well. It's stem looks squarer.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: CrossEyed7 on October 10, 2011, 02:42:40 PM
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F1%2F15%2FMushroomTTYD.png&hash=772dd34fae61b5d2f34cf46fcce83e0d5b43ce41)(https://themushroomkingdom.net/images/ss/papermario-3ds/017.jpg)(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F3%2F3f%2FSuperMushroom.png%2F200px-SuperMushroom.png&hash=2f15a7ad41a55566111b61d0464deaf189e8392b)

Yep. It now looks exactly like the official render. Because apparently that old version would be too confusing. People would look at it and be like "What the heck is that? It is not a Mushroom; its stem is too long and the dots on the side are too big!"

At this point, I almost wouldn't be surprised if Mario has sclerae by the time the game comes out.

Also, old POW Blocks:

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Ff%2Fff%2FPOWBlock_PM.png&hash=0286ba7c630d5106f12d86f72ffff1b3a6881032) (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fa%2Fad%2FPOWBlockSPM.png&hash=640ecba22023df3c8a3bae17ec856362b3d43777)
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: bobbysq1337 on October 10, 2011, 02:49:11 PM
Quote from: CrossEyed7
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/images/ss/papermario-3ds/017.jpg)
Paper Mario 3D[/center]
l
(The POW Block is also different)
I have no idea why Nintendo thinks that POW Blocks need to look like their orginal version. In NSMBW it was funny. Now it's lazy.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Toad on October 10, 2011, 10:06:58 PM
I would rather have the an SMB2 inspired POW, with the word sliding out of/into the frame. That would be awesome.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: BP on October 10, 2011, 10:28:46 PM
To go with the SMW ? blocks
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: CrossEyed7 on October 29, 2011, 11:06:33 PM
Wigglers were going to appear in Super Paper Mario, and they would've looked like this:

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fb%2Fbf%2FWiggler_Beta.png&hash=46b6acf9ec27cebed92b8da66dbb587ab090a5ec)

Now, they're going to be in Paper Mario 3D, looking like this:

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F8%2F8e%2FWigglerPM3DS.PNG&hash=c9949ed3562b8e19c158fd04472ff3062baf437f)

Hm. Kind of mixed on this one.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: The Chef on October 30, 2011, 11:16:27 AM
The SPM one has the red nose and short length of a YI Flying Wiggler.

The one in PM3DS looks like an almost exact imitation of the SMW manual artwork. Pretty tough choice.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Toad on October 30, 2011, 03:13:58 PM
The PM3DS one is extremely too long, despite having an awesome design.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: The Chef on October 30, 2011, 10:36:48 PM
Usually Wigglers are four segments long. The SPM one seems to only have three (and Flying Wigglers only have two). The Wiggler in that screenshot looks to have about eight or more.

Longest Wiggler we've seen to date?
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: jdaster64 on October 30, 2011, 10:44:22 PM
Excluding the one in 7-3(?) in NSMB?
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Turtlekid1 on March 23, 2015, 06:52:27 PM
Other than texture, there's been almost nothing changed in nearly a decade (http://i.imgur.com/vJmc8yi.jpg).

Notably, the "M" on the cap looks like a sewn-on patch now.  Looking at all the other parts of the character, which have arguably gotten more plastic, it's a bit out of place.  Like, by by the same token, if they're going to go that route, why is the mustache still made of lumps of 3D modeling clay instead of a lot of individually distinguishable hairs?  I haven't played MP10, is there any particular in-game reason for the boy scout badge "M"?
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: The Chef on March 23, 2015, 08:44:19 PM
"Almost nothing"? That Wii U Mario model looks at least fifty times less ugly than the GCN Mario model. Why do you want a cartoon character to have distinguishable hairs on his face anyway? That would be creepy as hell.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: BP on March 23, 2015, 09:46:05 PM
Uncanny valley, Turtle. Sure, there is a middle ground between Mario now and

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgonintendo.com%2Fwp-content%2Fphotos%2Fthumb_realmario818.jpg&hash=899a615bca786236cfbe892469a3b2a4fce8ad46)

this. But... to be honest I feel like Mario has more visual identity as-is. I'd put the limit at how the Mario characters look in Smash 4, not wanting to veer off and have Peach and Rosalina look like Disney princesses. I'm tired enough of Disney's samey CGI without any outside help.

Mario Kart 8 is full-stop gorgeous if you ask me. I want that art team on every Nintendo project. Their take on Hyrule is fantastic, their take on Mute City is spectacular, every other track in the game is breathtaking, I love it.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Turtlekid1 on March 24, 2015, 02:45:11 AM
Quote from: The Chef on March 23, 2015, 08:44:19 PM
Why do you want a cartoon character to have distinguishable hairs on his face anyway? That would be creepy as hell.
I don't.  I like my Mario cartoony.  I'm saying they shouldn't have photorealistic fabric textures if they're not willing to follow through.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: TheMightyThor on March 25, 2015, 12:54:06 PM
Quote from: BP on March 23, 2015, 09:46:05 PM
Mario Kart 8 is full-stop gorgeous if you ask me. I want that art team on every Nintendo project. Their take on Hyrule is fantastic, their take on Mute City is spectacular, every other track in the game is breathtaking, I love it.

So much this. That game looks incredible!
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Boo Dudley on April 01, 2015, 03:42:57 PM
I think this an excellent case-in-point for the importance for fresh IPs. M&L1's character designs were fresh but the game wasn't a Marioverse game in the first place, so it's likely they were altered just so so they'd mesh with whatever predominate aesthetic was already in situ.

I adore the game; it is to date the most Charlie Nozawa-ish Mario game. But as time draws on, I wish it remained Tomato Adventure 2 and allowed to build its own 'verse. Instead it's just footnote to a bloated franchise.

Of course it wouldn't have sold nearly as well, but that'd been our fault.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: The Chef on April 01, 2015, 04:37:39 PM
Er, who said it was ever Tomato Adventure 2?
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Boo Dudley on April 01, 2015, 06:02:27 PM
My senesence, apparently! Don't argue with it!

Regardless, M&L does share a style, closer than what was directed towards Yoichi Kotabe's later on.

Even if it wasn't a rebrand, it's telling that Alpha Dream never did a follow-up to Tomato Adventure, but four M&Ls. The latter has entirely supplemented the former. Maybe they don't care one way or the other, maybe they had no intention of continuing TA,  but an idiosyncratic vision wouldn't have vanished if there wasn't a precedent to diverge from.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: The Chef on April 01, 2015, 06:05:42 PM
....senesence?
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Sqrt2 on June 11, 2015, 06:18:01 PM
I don't see what the issue is, to be quite honest. I think keeping the designs the same is a good thing in terms of recognisability, rather than a bad one.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Turtlekid1 on June 12, 2015, 11:56:58 AM
At the same time, I don't think the changes in character sprites between the early games had people scratching their heads as to who this new guy on screen was.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: WarpRattler on June 12, 2015, 12:02:43 PM
There's a good bit of truth to what Sqrt2 says. From a game design standpoint, recognizable and consistent silhouettes are more important than the sort of "uniqueness" discussed in this thread. This is a big part of why alternate outfits in games like Street Fighter IV are a bad thing for competitive players; when you have costumes that completely change a character's silhouette and muddy up otherwise distinctive animations, it becomes much harder to visually read a character.

That said, there's no problem with having distinct designs within different Mario sub-series, especially since significantly different designs can function in different ways (compare biped and quadruped varieties of Dry Bones).
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: BP on June 12, 2015, 02:10:42 PM
In Paper Mario and M&L's cases it's the same thing as when, say, you have an artist who draws a pokémon so on-model that at first glance you don't know it's not a Ken Sugimori original

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2xSrzrk.jpg&hash=9d82f4014c7e4cdbc9b9d8afbdb166046ebfac71)

versus, when you have somebody following the example but doing their own thing,

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FRmTctpi.png&hash=da261593521f140d1a5c6545765c58564a26e16e)

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FjFRGXAO.png&hash=9011887dc40d141ea68a2a5b283e7cf526ca7d86)

(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FUMNaYxl.jpg&hash=10539cfa1639b9515ff941bfe5958d7d9ab44336)

which carries a bit of personality. In an entire game's case, it conveys a tone. Paper Mario looks like it wants to get you invested, but not be taken TOO seriously. M&L:SS looks like it wants you to laugh.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: CrossEyed7 on June 12, 2015, 08:26:57 PM
Yeah, when characters always look exactly the same from game to game, there's no real art direction for individual games. Everything kinda just looks like New Super Mario Bros. Less Mario & Sonic Olympicses, more Mario Strikerses.

(One reason I don't like the idea of "Smash Kart" is that Mario Kart has been around for so long that they're almost forced to come up with their own original ideas for locations to fill out an entire set of courses, whereas if it was just a crossover kart racing game from the beginning, there'd just be a couple of generic Mario courses with a couple of nods to recent games. Smash Kart would never have places like Neo Bowser City, Wild Woods, or Super Bell Subway.)
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: BP on June 12, 2015, 10:42:28 PM
Hmm... now that I think about it... I still think the above is true, but consider: Luigi's voice was never nailed down until 16 years in, in Luigi's Mansion. I didn't even realize Spikes were a recurring thing until NSMBU, because they looked so different in Super Mario 3, Yoshi's Island, Yoshi's Story and NSMBDS, they weren't called Spikes in Paper Mario and didn't do the same thing they usually do, and it was not mentioned that Tolstar was a Spike in Mario & Luigi: SS and he looked a little different. Something as simple as Yoshi's body type has varied and varied and varied and varied. Maybe the real problem is that Mario simply took forever to reach a point that it started to be consistent at all. And maybe now that it has, it's just that there's no way everything can settle on the designs that any one person liked the most.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: The Chef on June 13, 2015, 03:19:11 AM
They looked different enough in Yoshi's Island that Nintendo Power misnamed them "Mace Penguins", which is pretty funny in retrospect.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Ganon Vader on December 18, 2015, 12:02:33 PM
A trend towards graphical sameyness is also noticable when comparing Super Mario 64 N64 to Super Mario 64 DS. I'm posting a comparison of Bowser's appearance and the Boos and Boss Basses were changed to their usual looks in the DS version.



Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: The Chef on December 18, 2015, 06:28:54 PM
While you're definitely right about the trend evident in that particular game, I have some additional information that I'd like to clarify.

Firstly, it is important to remember that Boss Bass is named (http://i.imgur.com/HkPaSNp.jpg) Kyodai Pukupuku (巨大プクプク) in Japan.

The enemy you see there is actually not Boss Bass, but a similar one named (http://41.media.tumblr.com/8298caf9d6e238e9926b254c3e9ff318/tumblr_nxvi0k6xcG1s3uawvo10_r1_1280.jpg) Bakubaku (バクバク) in Japan and "Bubba" by Nintendo Power.

"Bubba" would indeed later be redesigned to look like a carbon copy of Boss Bass in SM64DS, making his redundancy all the more evident. However, he'd later reappear in New Super Mario Bros. (http://i.imgur.com/dfDUNt6.jpg) where they gave him a more distinct purple color. Granted, it's not as distinct as the yellow fish with glasses but at least he doesn't look like a generic Cheep-Cheep anymore. Nintendo Power must've thought he was a new enemy or something, because they ended up renaming him "Cheep-Chomp" in this game.

Speaking of Cheep-Cheeps, their appearances on the N64 is the most unique they've ever looked, being yellow with bright orange fins and goggles (like a Blurp). They looked unique enough that Nintendo Power apparently thought they were a new enemy entirely and named them "Bub". It took until Mario Party 3 for NoA to get their name right. Naturally, in SM64DS they appear with their bog standard red-with-white fins design, which is kind of a bummer.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: TheMightyThor on December 20, 2015, 06:35:05 PM
Quote from: Ganon Vader on December 18, 2015, 12:02:33 PM
A trend towards graphical sameyness is also noticable when comparing Super Mario 64 N64 to Super Mario 64 DS. I'm posting a comparison of Bowser's appearance and the Boos and Boss Basses were changed to their usual looks in the DS version.

Note that concept art of Bowser from that era makes him resemble something akin to the DS version with darker skin, so that's less graphical sameyness and more that the N64 models could be a bit crude.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: CrossEyed7 on December 21, 2015, 08:37:22 PM
I do think there's a certain charm to the crappy early 3D graphics. It's hard to tell sometimes how much of the creeping sameyness is due to better graphic hardware -- they have enough polygons now that they don't have to decide which features of the characters to represent and which ones to leave out or make less detailed, which kind of had the effect of different art styles even if they weren't intentionally doing different art styles.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Ganon Vader on December 22, 2015, 12:43:51 AM
Bowser's shell is smooth in the concept art, but has a pattern on it in the game. How would esrly 3D graphics explain this? How does early 3D graphics explain sunglasses on a fish?
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: BP on February 03, 2016, 05:39:13 AM
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FoDPnnXb.jpg&hash=dca7f6b05f6b219f86ed02b097bfd1db0a46f9a5)

At a glance, I recognize those flowers. I am comforted. This is Mario. Mario will not betray or hurt or take advantage of me
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: 4 Game Freak on February 24, 2016, 12:37:10 AM
Wow. I forgot how different many of the games were in terms of their aesthetics. I guess by making them more accurate to the source, they made them less interesting?

Of course, if you ask me, I would point out to Miyamoto and his group not giving a [darn] anymore.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: The Chef on February 24, 2016, 07:12:30 AM
I don't think it's that. I'm sure there's a reason behind their decision to have every outside team follow the exact same style guidelines, but nobody seems to know exactly what that reason is, and nobody's thought to ask about it during any interviews with the likes of Miyamoto, Tezuka, or someone else who is working or has worked on a Mario game.

I figured maybe the reason previous games all looked wildly different is because Nintendo didn't really have any style guidelines, and only recently did they decide to come up with some.

But that's just a hunch, and the real reason could easily be something wildly different.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Turtlekid1 on February 24, 2016, 10:16:22 AM
Quote from: The Chef on February 24, 2016, 07:12:30 AM
I figured maybe the reason previous games all looked wildly different is because Nintendo didn't really have any style guidelines, and only recently did they decide to come up with some.
The implications of this would account for quite a bit - in addition to just aesthetics - in more recent Nintendo games.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Turtlekid1 on March 05, 2016, 07:00:46 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/rDNB1M1.png)
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: The Chef on March 05, 2016, 07:35:49 AM
That must be the 20th time I've seen that image since the Direct.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: Turtlekid1 on March 05, 2016, 08:29:42 AM
Heh, just noticed it was posted in the PM:CS thread too.
Title: Re: Creeping Graphical Sameyness
Post by: 4 Game Freak on March 05, 2016, 07:50:38 PM
Quote from: Turtlekid1 on March 05, 2016, 07:00:46 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/rDNB1M1.png)
Yeah, Miyamoto wanted to limited the cast to a minimum, thinking people would be attracted to more familiar face. And simplifying characters and plots.

Going by a few articles, he's majority the reason why Nintendo is in just a rut.