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Author Topic: The ANGST thread: Complain here!  (Read 1807524 times)

« Reply #6870 on: August 04, 2010, 02:18:03 AM »
I equated "modern" with "innovation" because modern means not like the old, which means having changed something. Semantics.

DQIX multiplayer is not like Diablo in any way. DQIX battles take place in their own private turn-based universe. Two people fighting two different battles in the same room can not affect each other in any way. And if two people are in the same battle, the fact that your party members are controlled by humans grants absolutely NO tactical advantage. It actually creates two disadvantages: the other players are taking experience that could be going to your normal non-human party members, and the fact that multiple humans taking their own actions will have less of an overall cohesive strategy than one human controlling all 4 party members (at best, equal cohesiveness). Furthermore, only the host player can make storyprogress, leaving any other players to take their now-overleveled single character back to their "real" game to join up with the 3 weaklings that got left behind. DQIX multiplayer is a worthless sham that provides no useful difference to the singleplayer formula, but in fact several disadvantages. It is not like an MMO, it is not like Diablo, it's like letting your friend use controller 2 to control Vivi in FFIX... but worse because Vivi can wander off if he wants to.

What are these mysterious innovations you keep saying DQIX has over previous DQ games? What meaningful additions does DQIX have that DQVII or DQVIII didn't?

Bringing FFXIII's characters into the discussion seems weird because DQIX has NO characters. It has a mute hero created and named by you and three more beyond-mute (they don't even appear in cutscenes) heroes created and named by you.

It's important to note that in none of these posts I'm trying to say DQIX is a "bad game". I'm saying DQIX gameplay philosophy is roughly on par with the FFIII era, and thus Tycho is a hypocrite regarding SCII. The DQ series is all about retaining the traditional JRPG design, and it's a charming example of such. I do think it was hurt by their multiplayer fixation in two ways: it necessitated the aforementioned lack of player character personality and caused the game to be on DS, which nosedived the series' graphics. (Not that DQ cares about graphics--look how it stayed up through DQVII--but DQVIII was just so gosh darned pretty...)

Glorb

  • Banned
« Reply #6871 on: August 04, 2010, 05:10:54 AM »
How many paragraphs have you dudes devoted to this useless subject? I haven't read every post thus far (ohemjee just like with Limbo) but from what I can tell this is just like the whole value/length/cost argument me and Warp had a while back, where the only reason the discussion exists is because one or both parties are operating in some fantasy land where what they say is true and factors into the game itself.

Who gives a [dukar] if something's modern or whatever JUST PLAY THE [darn] GAME I MEAN SERIOUSLY WHO CARES IF A GAME IS "MODERN" ARGH
every

WarpRattler

  • Paid by the word
« Reply #6872 on: August 04, 2010, 05:38:02 AM »
DQIX multiplayer is not like Diablo in any way.
Let's see...

the other players are taking experience that could be going to your normal non-human party members
Since the game can feasibly be completed with any sort of party, including one consisting of no one aside from the hero, this is less of an issue than you're making it out to be. Especially since said hero is getting more experience playing with others than he would playing with his own three party members, because experience gains for everyone get boosted when you have more players in an instance. You know, like Diablo II. Unlike that game, though, in DQ9 the levels themselves are less important than the skill points earned from leveling up, because levels don't carry across classes (not that D2 has class-switching) (yes, I'm aware that leveling in D2 is a very different beast from leveling in DQ9).

the fact that multiple humans taking their own actions will have less of an overall cohesive strategy than one human controlling all 4 party members (at best, equal cohesiveness).
I'll grant you that different players will probably have different strategies, but the same goes for pretty much any co-op game that doesn't have strategies of the "this is the only thing worth doing" variety, and in this it'd rarely be anything less than equal cohesiveness, because it's pretty easy to coordinate when it's turn-based and you can only do local wireless. And different strategies could be a good thing; as a very basic example, one player might have advanced their hero in a class the others didn't, and be able to use skills the rest can't as a result.

only the host player can make storyprogress
Like Diablo. I think this is actually a good thing for a story-based game like Dragon Quest, so I like that it's set up so that only the host player can initiate story events, rather than, using Diablo II's first act as an example, it being possible for a high-leveled guest player to go kill Andariel while the host is still in the Den of Evil.

leaving any other players to take their now-overleveled single character back to their "real" game
Like Diablo. Except in this it's less of an issue, since, again, skill points are more important than any levels earned through experience.

I do agree that DQ9 multiplayer has major problems (including some of the things you pointed out), but many of them aren't just problems with this game, and at least this game tries to deal with them. And because you can in fact have different character builds, having someone bring their character into your game is a lot different from them just taking over control of one of your own characters.

For what it's worth, I think the fact that you instantly gain access to the downloadable quests by visiting the world of a player who has them is a bigger problem with the multiplayer stuff at this point in the game's lifespan than anything the multiplayer combat changes or doesn't change, because it means the only reasons to update DQVC are the legacy characters' outfits (which I hope are available some other way) and the offchance that one of the sale items it generates for you that day is mini medals.



What meaningful additions does DQIX have that DQVII or DQVIII didn't?
The main one I can think of is non-random battles (which DQ8 sort of did, but only with the special monsters for the arena; Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker did it for everything, but DQ9 is the first standard game in the series to have regular field encounters be that way), which really is a bigger deal than you'd think. And tied to that, while not doing the whole "you win low-level battles instantly after a certain level" thing EarthBound does (it can't because of the sidequests), DQ9 does have weaker monsters in the field run away from you if they see you, so you can chase them down if you need to, or just ignore them. I believe Chrono Trigger did this, and know the last two Persona games did, but I can't think of anything else. They also expanded heavily on the alchemy system from DQ8, but this could also be seen as a bad thing, since the game has over a thousand different items, and you can only find certain recipes through trial and error.

Bringing FFXIII's characters into the discussion seems weird because DQIX has NO characters.
I'm sure Chupperson will disagree with me here, but I think not having characters with personalities is better than having characters I can't like, even though the latter is the "modern" approach. (Actually, the true modern approach is pretending you're making a WRPG and/or a dating sim instead of a JRPG when you're writing character interactions, but Atlus is the only company doing that.)



It's important to note that in none of these posts I'm trying to say DQIX is a "bad game".
Nor am I saying you are. My apologies if it seemed otherwise; it may very well have given how often you attack the genre at hand.

I'm saying DQIX gameplay philosophy is roughly on par with the FFIII era, and thus Tycho is a hypocrite regarding SCII.
And I'm saying that DQ9 as a whole is closer to this decade than SC2. And as I said before, while I don't necessarily agree with Tycho's opinions regarding the game (particularly anything he said with regards to editors, since the SC2 editor is a lot more versatile than the WC3 editor, and is a part of the game where his sentiments simply do not apply), I do believe it's right to say that the end result after twelve years being little more than a remake of the original is a bit disappointing.

I do think [DQ9] was hurt by their multiplayer fixation in two ways: it necessitated the aforementioned lack of player character personality and caused the game to be on DS, which nosedived the series' graphics. (Not that DQ cares about graphics--look how it stayed up through DQVII--but DQVIII was just so gosh darned pretty...)
While I do agree that it being built as a multiplayer game hurts it in terms of them designing a central cast and in terms of some of what they could have done with the gameplay, as you said, Dragon Quest isn't about the graphics (though DQ8 is indeed a beautiful game, and I believe DQMJ looked better than DQ9), and it being on the DS adds the very wonderful feature of it being portable*. I do have a different aesthetic issue with the same cause, though: while Koichi Sugiyama's musical compositions are excellent as always, their rendition as digital audio (aside from the overture) rather than live orchestra recordings as in the previous game is rather depressing (particularly because the OST is the same way).

*I am firmly of the opinion that JRPGs are a far better fit for handheld systems than any console. While you obviously can't do something with the graphical intensity of FF13 on a handheld, I find myself increasingly more likely to play a handheld game than a console game. For me I guess it's something about being more capable of putting extensive time into a game I can take with me anywhere than a game where I'm tethered to a television.

« Reply #6873 on: August 06, 2010, 02:52:00 PM »
Curses! I bought the sixth Penny Arcade book the other day, and they've just now implemented a 10% discount code! (on account of the warehouse being moved)
I got to a computer and tried to order book 6 today but they're sold out. So don't feel bad; you're the winner, not a loser.

Trainman

  • Bob-Omg
« Reply #6874 on: August 06, 2010, 05:16:21 PM »
Trainman moves that the current discussion should have its own thread.

(Or move it to the why you JRPG lovers suck thread)
Formerly quite reasonable.

Chupperson Weird

  • Not interested.
« Reply #6875 on: August 06, 2010, 05:26:36 PM »
So what happened to your computer anyway, LD?
That was a joke.

WarpRattler

  • Paid by the word
« Reply #6876 on: August 06, 2010, 05:39:08 PM »
If you've been wondering where I was the last few weeks: I inadvertently locked my Windows install into infinitely rebooting while battling a virus and have had very limited internet access (using others' PCs). I still haven't fixed anything / bought a new PC

Chupperson Weird

  • Not interested.
« Reply #6877 on: August 06, 2010, 06:19:56 PM »
Sorry, real life must have distracted me.
That was a joke.

Trainman

  • Bob-Omg
« Reply #6878 on: August 15, 2010, 12:15:55 PM »
Friend of mine passed away a few days ago. She had leukemia. She had gotten chemo for the first time since she was originally diagnosed at six years old. She texted me saying, "I'm cancer free =)" and that was the last thing I ever heard from her. Two weeks later, she's gone. Apparently, she had caught flu soon after being treated and it took her.
Formerly quite reasonable.

« Reply #6879 on: August 15, 2010, 01:22:53 PM »
Man, that's tragic... Our condolences.
YYur  waYur n beYur you Yur plusYur instYur an Yur Yur whaYur

« Reply #6880 on: August 15, 2010, 01:28:26 PM »
I'm sorry to hear that. :|

Glorb's right. I still want to apologize. I haven't made a gaming pun in a while and it was a moment of weakness.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 04:08:55 PM by Toad »
Kinopio is the ultimate video game character! Who else can drive a kart, host parties, play tennis, give good advice and items, and is almost always happy??

Glorb

  • Banned
« Reply #6881 on: August 15, 2010, 02:01:29 PM »
Toad, now's really not the best time for video game puns, regardless of whether or not you apologize for them.

And I'm really sorry to hear about that, man. That [dukar] hurts.
every

ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #6882 on: August 15, 2010, 04:41:57 PM »
That's terrible, man. I have a couple relatives fighting cancer, but I can't imagine how it feels to lose a friend to it.
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

Trainman

  • Bob-Omg
« Reply #6883 on: August 16, 2010, 06:38:02 PM »
I appreciate all your messages. A lot, actually.

Maybe this type of situation warrants its own thread because, yes, while it's angst, it's doesn't really fit the "complain here" aspect of the thread and it's much more serious than, "lol [darn] it i broke my ds." It sort of drags the whole thread down, and makes it hard to know when to pick the thread back up with other angsty happenings without coming off as being uncaring or apathetic towards a person's loss, kinda like if you said, "ahh sucks trainman..... wellll okay, i lost my game the other day and..."

I'm not too sure. What do you guys think?
Formerly quite reasonable.

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #6884 on: August 16, 2010, 08:31:35 PM »
That kind of thing is really why the ANGST thread shouldn't exist. It prevents anything that should rightfully exist as its own thread from.... existing as its own thread.

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