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Author Topic: "The Philosophy of Liberty"  (Read 32851 times)

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« on: June 05, 2009, 01:26:21 AM »
This video is pretty much the succinctest (not suckingest) summary of libertarianism that uses stick figures and dramatic music ever. Discuss it perhaps. Is it too idealistic? Too pragmatic? Dead wrong? Perfect? Oversimplified? Somewhere in between? Is it what America's founders believed, and if so, does that mean it's what we should believe too?
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2009, 01:49:51 AM »
Libertarianism sounds wonderful on paper. To have complete and total freedom is something I dream about, but I don't see it working. Mainly because we're always gonna have one group wanting to control the other. It's in our nature.

Liberals love big government when it comes to the economy while conservatives love big government when it comes to social issues. "Libertarians are more liberal than liberals when it comes to social issues and more conservative than conservatives when it comes to economic issues."

I myself am a liberal simply because I want people to have social rights, but I don't think the government should hang its people out to dry on money issues. As for the video...I dunno. It's oversimplified I guess, but they got the general gist of it.
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2009, 07:24:57 PM »
That video can be interpreted as either the epitomy of a Utopian society or as a call to unrestricted nihilism in its purest form. While this digresses somewhat from the point at hand, it's still vaguely topical: The theoretical zenith of conservatism would consist of one ruler with supreme authority over all six billion of his subjects. Conversely, the greatest extremity of liberalism would consist of absolute equality to the point where Joe Blow could massacre your family and burn down an orphanage without any consequence, since restricting his actions in any way infringes on his individual rights. In reality, the society in which those stick people reside would be a scary one in which the virtually-nonexistent government can't protect its citizens for fear of infringing on the rights of Joe Blow the serial killer. The video doesn't deliver any ultimatums or draw any definite lines as to where individual rights detract from society's rights. This can lead to travesties such as the one which occurred in the Canadian province of Quebec last December: the iconic Christmas tree situated in the province's capital city was first renamed a "holiday tree", and then was nearly removed altogether. Luckily a storm of protest saved the enormous evergreen at the last minute, but it still illustrates the necessity of societal rights, which are all but absent in that video.

The video also flagrantly overlooks one of civilization's most basic realities. While nobody has literally possessed ownership of another individual in the United States since Abe Lincoln determined the practise unjust back in 1865, we still have authority to obey which subsequently protects our freedoms in return. This rudimentary concept has been paraphrased in countless ways throughout history:

"There's always someone cooler than you." ~Ben Folds
"You'll always be someone's *****." ~Anonymous
"...But you're gonna have to serve somebody" ~Bob Dylan

Most religious adherents claim to be the creation of, and therefore the "property of" God to at least some extent, and even most atheists acknowledge their inevitable submission to some earthly power (with the possible exception of anti-establishment-bent anarchists, who would be the ones to worry about in a truly libertarian society anyway). Anyways, the video presents a nice-on-paper "wouldn't it be nice..." sentiment without posing any answers. While freedom is essential, so is courtesy to society.
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CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2009, 09:02:22 PM »
I don't really like the conservative and liberal labels. They've both been changed so many times that nothing you say about either of them makes sense for more than ten years or so. They make sense in principle if you use the definitions to say that conservative means a little government and liberal means a lot of government, but that ignores the history of both terms, as well as the meanings that every individual person has when they apply them to themselves and others. Plus I've never really understood why Hitler is supposed to be right-wing (I suspect it's largely because he fought against the USSR, so they must be opposing ideologies). As best as I can tell, socialism is where the government owns everything, while fascism is where people own things but the government has total, absolute say on what they can (and should/must) do with them -- seems to me like socialism is just fascism that doesn't pretend to be capitalism.

Ayn Rand and Karl Marx, who are about as opposite as you can get, both envisioned a utopic society with virtually no government. In Randianism, the government gets out of everyone's way completely and supercapitalist competition takes care of everything, possibly even including privatized law. In Marxism, the government extends its reach, as a society progresses from feudalism (where everything is privatized) to capitalism (less privatization, government takes care of some essential public services like roads and armies and law) to socialism (the government controls major industries) until eventually getting to the perfect Communist utopia (which no nation has ever reached, regardless of calling themselves Communist), where the government basically becomes everything, and therefore ceases to exist apart from the rest of the nation.

Both philosophies end up at the same place, but in opposite ways, and I think the core debate comes down to what human nature is. The analogy that I use is that we're on one side of a river and want to get to the other, and can't decide whether we should use the bridge or just go through the water: the ultimate question is whether we're in a car or a boat. Marxism works on the premise that people are basically good, and their goodness can be unlocked and magnified (or, as most extremist Marxist regimes end up doing, that humanity can be made good by force or by the process of elimination), while Randianism works on the premise that humans are selfish, and that selfishness should be encouraged and then harnessed for the common good.

Of course, the real question is more complicated than the binary nature of the analogy would seem to indicate. Humans are both good and bad: created in the image of God, yet fallen. And no one actually wants to get all the way to the other side of the river; virtually everyone recognizes that we do need government in some capacity.

As a conservative-leaning Christian, I usually find political discussions to be a bit one-sided, as a result of the polarization of politics. As I said, I believe humans are both good and bad, and that that ought to be reflected in our system. I didn't celebrate "Human Achievement Hour" instead of Earth Hour, and I don't think selfishness is a virtue. It seems like most conservatives online, in reaction to Obama's policies (and Bush's in his last few months), have gone a bit too much in the direction of "CAPITALISM F*** YEAH!" The pendulum always swings too far, as they say.

I think the system that made America great was a binary system with a harmony between church and state. Yeah, separation and all, but separation doesn't mean there's no church at all. They ought to complement each other. The government enforces basic rights (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness/property) and when deciding how to protect them has multiple separate branches competing with each other for our approval (ideally), the economy has private businesses that need to make good products that people will buy in order for the company to survive (ideally), and the church -- especially local churches, who best know their communities -- pick up those that get left behind by the government and economy, through private voluntary donations that individual local churches will best know how and where to use. It's not perfect, but I think it's as good as anything we've come up with.

Gradually, over the last hundred years or so, the government has become more centralized, requiring less approval from the people, the market has become less competitive, both through monopolies and government regulation, and the church has retreated from the public square, happy to sit in their corners and preach to themselves and use their dwindling donations to build bigger churches for fewer people, leaving the government to take care of the people they used to help. We are, and have been for a long time now, going in the opposite direction we started out in.

Anyway, getting back to the video, I'm not sure. I think it all should be taken in balance. As a modified conservative/libertarianish-esque-lite/whatever, I do think we ought to have a lot of freedom as far as the government is concerned, but as a Christian, I don't believe individuals are truly free unless they are in God's will -- something the government can't enforce. And it's tough to know how to juggle it all biblically. The Bible gives rules for a theocracy that no longer apply, and it briefly references small groups of Christians living in communes, and it says to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's -- to submit to governmental authority so long as they don't intrude on God's turf -- but it doesn't really give specific steps to take when we're at the wheel. So yeah, I don't really know.

While this digresses somewhat from the point at hand, it's still vaguely topical
Dude, I am the monkey-fighting king of digressing from the topic.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 09:06:11 PM by CrossEyed7 »
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

Chupperson Weird

  • Not interested.
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2009, 10:17:41 PM »
BUT are you on a monday-to-friday plane!!!!
That was a joke.

TEM

  • THE SOVIET'S MOST DANGEROUS PUZZLE.
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2009, 10:56:52 PM »
I felt a little uncomfortable with some stuff, but the only thing that made me say "WAT" is the attached image. This is wrong. People often do not know what is best for themselves. The philosophy presented seems to be based on the idea that if things are always done with mutual voluntary agreement than they are perfectly fine as long as these things don't infringe on the liberty of others. This is incorrect because of the fact that people can be and often are ignorant of what is best for themselves and others.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 11:01:27 PM by TEM »
0000

« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2009, 11:16:49 PM »
CrossEyed, I wholeheartedly agree with every word you posted up there. In fact, it borders on being unnerving. Wow.

As for fascism, it's considered an extremely right-wing ideology because it stems from nationalism, which emphasizes excessive patriotism for the betterment of the state, regardless of how it affects individuals. Communism often implements a similarly nationalistic sentiment upon itself, making the so-called polar opposite ideologies seem almost indistinguishable. Indeed, the proverbial balance always takes wider leftward and rightward swings with every tick. That's where balance becomes important: In Canada, our Parliamentary government system relies on the ruling parties' opposition to shoot down every point they make provide a counterbalance to their propositions. Of course, barely anything gets done in this scenario, but... yeah. A mediocre government is better than a totalitarian government.

As for the theocratic argument, the corrupt Medieval Papacy proved well enough that Man can't really implement God's will without tainting it with our own sinfulness. Perhaps why the early Christians lived so harmoniously in their communistic society is because they didn't have the earthly power to be corrupted by. The bottom line, of course, goes back to what the J-man said: "Don't screw with the government unless the government screws with God".

...That last line didn't come out well, did it? Crap.

EDIT: TEM's point exemplifies where both communism and this idealistic libertarianism fall flat: For either to function optimally, they require perfect harmony amongst all people at all times. If that were the case, this discussion wouldn't have existed in the first place.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 11:20:35 PM by Weegee »
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2009, 11:20:18 PM »
I pretty much agree with TEM.
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2009, 12:34:23 AM »
CrossEyed, I wholeheartedly agree with every word you posted up there. In fact, it borders on being unnerving. Wow.
Well, I did ask you this a while ago:
Weegee, every once in a while I wonder if you're me from the future. If you are, is my future girlfriend hot?
The fact that you didn't answer makes me suspicious -- or perhaps a bit fearful of my future girlfriend's looks (or lack of existence).

It seems that any form of government is doomed to eventually fail, whether it lasts ten years or 300 years, when the people become complacent and apathetic, clearing the way for some form of tyranny, whether it be from big businesses, existing governments, or other nations, to rise up and fill the void. When people stop caring, stop researching, stop voting, stop getting involved in the system at all, often fostered by a disconnect that the government produces when it turns all elitist and strays away from the "of, by, for" thing, they can become enslaved.

Of course, the Bible says in numerous places that if we are enslaved, we ought to "work heartily, as if for the Lord and not for men" -- but by the 1800s, we also all pretty much agreed that we have a biblical imperative to free slaves (as a sidenote, I really love IJM). It's true that the main freedom of "If Christ shall make ye free, ye shall be free indeed" is freedom from sin through Jesus' sacrifice, but James makes it clear that we can't neglect people's physical needs. So, if a government does go so far as to effectively become slavery, as the US's founders argued Britain had, do Christians have a responsibility to stop it (and, of course, what do we do with it then)?

I think the key difference is when others are involved. Like how if I'm driving and I'm in one of those intersection mergey thingies, if it's just me in the road, it's a nice, sacrificial thing to do to let lots of other cars go in ahead of me, but if I've got a line of cars backed up behind me that I'm holding up, I'm no longer just hurting myself, I'm hurting others who have no say in the matter. Similarly, if it's just me that's a slave, then it's right for me to stay there obediently, but it's not right for me to stand by and watch other people be enslaved when I have the power to free them (and I certainly shouldn't own any slaves myself, trying to justify it by saying "Well, the Bible says they're supposed to obey me."). Of course, we should try to be peaceful and civil first in addressing it, like Paul was with Philemon about Onesimus, but after that, I think the case could definitely be made that it's our duty to do something when words don't work.
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2009, 06:10:16 AM »
I think it's interesting how we now have more taxes imposed on us here and now in the US than Britain ever imposed on the colonies.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2009, 07:33:57 AM »
It wasn't the amount of taxes. It was the fact that they taxed us without representation.

« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2009, 11:33:04 AM »
I think it's interesting how we now have more taxes imposed on us here and now in the US than Britain ever imposed on the colonies.

Are you suggesting we rebel against Obama or something?
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2009, 11:47:22 AM »
I'm suggesting massive changes in how the government spends money.  Democrats, Republicans, it makes no difference.  Both of them will eventually spend this country into oblivion.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

Sqrt2

  • 1.41421356
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2009, 04:18:21 PM »
I'm suggesting massive changes in how the government spends money.  Democrats, Republicans, it makes no difference.  Both of them will eventually spend this country into oblivion.

You are lucky. The current Labour government has already spent this country of mine into oblivion!

At least that is what it feels like.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2009, 04:19:59 PM by Sqrt2 »
AA fanboy and proud!

« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2009, 04:38:25 PM »
Weegee, every once in a while I wonder if you're me from the future. If you are, is my future girlfriend hot?

Funny you should inquire: I am indeed your future self, revisiting the past under the clever guise of an overused internet meme in hopes of saving you from a fate worse than death. Behold: Adam and Candy Menard, as shall occur in six years from now, unless you refrain from proposing to a certain "user:Candy21f" online until you meet it her in real life. HEED THESE WORDS, FORMER SELF

Anyways, it goes without saying that no government in today's world has even a reasonable sense of economic responsibility. You guys are eleven trillion dollars in debt (and counting), but the enormous clout which the United States possesses effectively nullifies any action against the country from going into effect.
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CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2009, 07:38:03 PM »
If every country in the world is running a debt, who do they owe the money to? (I would ask how anyone expects anyone to be able to pay it off if no one actually has any money, but it's obvious no country really plans on paying it off anymore) It'd be nice if the US could at least spread its debt around instead of putting it all on China. Really, any single country or organization shouldn't be holding the majority of our debt, because that potentially gives them way too much clout over us in the future, but especially not a Commie one that doesn't like us.

Are you suggesting we rebel against Obama or something?
If Obama had done it all himself, then I'd definitely say yeah. If in 2008 we had been where we were back in the 1700s and Obama added all these taxes and restrictions and everything overnight, it would at least be impeachable. But this has been building up for a long time now; Bush and Obama are just, for many, the straws that broke the camel's back.



Obama's didn't do it all himself, but he's accelerating it, or accelerating the acceleration or something. Bush is it blame for it too, of course, as are pretty much all the presidents and Congresses since the Jackson administration (the only time our debt was ever paid off). One way or another, crap's gonna hit the fan at some point in our lifetimes.

Adam and Candy Menard, as shall occur in six years from now
Wait a minute...
Quote
I tell you guys, that night was amazing, I am truly happy that I waited until marriage to lose my virginity.
Quote
As for children we have one on the way now, which is why I married her.
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2009, 10:32:38 PM »
It's another man's child. Yes, you and your ******* son's lives will suck that much.

Sorry about that. Back to politics, I'm sincerely doubtful that America's economy is bound to hit the fan within our lifetime. The country has been plowing itself deeper into debt for the last solid ninety years, with barely a single retrospective consideration of the effects of its oft-imperialistic capitalism on the rest of the world. Relating back to the original discussion, the U.S. is at a point at which it has no obligation to consider surrounding nations, as no consequences can forseeably be imposed on the country by anyone but itself... if that makes any sense.
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CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2009, 02:55:35 AM »
I don't know. I mean, our national debt doubled from 5 trillion to 10 trillion under Bush, and Obama is planning on doubling it again from 10 trillion to 20 trillion in the next ten years. If that trend continues, sooner or later something's gotta happen. Fewer and fewer countries are willing to buy our debt these days, and we're eventually going to resort to just printing more money and pumping it into the system, and Zimbabwe and the Weimar Republic can vouch for how well that works. It just seems like eventually we're going to get so deep into debt that either we're forced to repay it, or the rest of the world is forced to officially forget about it, and either option would have huge effects on the global economy.

The country has been plowing itself deeper into debt
Speaking of which, I found it a bit ironic (at least I think it's irony) when Obama said “The reckless fiscal policies of the past have left us in a very deep hole. Digging our way out will take time and patience and tough choices.” How are you supposed to dig your way out of a hole? The same way you spend your way out of debt, I guess.

Well, do we at least get flying cars in the future? Or did my marrying Candy somehow butterfly them out of existence, like that episode of Family Guy?
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

Luigison

  • Old Person™
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2009, 06:57:35 PM »
Don't blame Obama.  This is Woodrow Wilson's fault.

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence

Watch "Money As Debt" to get a better idea of where all this debt is coming from, how it creates money, and why we have to keep it going or completely change our monetary system. 
“Evolution has shaped us with perceptions that allow us to survive. But part of that involves hiding from us the stuff we don’t need to know."

« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2009, 10:01:03 PM »
Nope.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 12:43:13 PM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2009, 11:10:23 PM »
Good gracious... Extreme much, PL? That test generally puts me one above and one to the right of dead centre. Of course, not understanding the convoluted phrasing of the economic questions may have skewed my results.
YYur  waYur n beYur you Yur plusYur instYur an Yur Yur whaYur

Black Mage

  • HP 1018 MP 685
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2009, 11:15:14 PM »
Don't blame Obama.  This is Woodrow Wilson's fault.

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence

Watch "Money As Debt" to get a better idea of where all this debt is coming from, how it creates money, and why we have to keep it going or completely change our monetary system. 

If nothing else that was an incredibly interesting video. Thank you for sharing, Luigison.

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2009, 07:30:10 AM »
Hm...I retook that "World's Smallest Political Quiz" and my results looked like this...

[pic]

Mostly because I've sort of come to dislike the recent bailouts, methinks.

My red dot was one space below and to the right of yours. 
I also dislike the bailouts.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2009, 11:52:41 AM »
.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 12:43:39 PM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2009, 02:40:52 PM »
Moderation is key. For instance, I believe that the press or speech should under no circumstances be censored, but incidentally that the government should step in before Holocaust Porn: The Musical hits the cinemas.

As for drugs, there's really no saying whether legalizing them would eradicate or amplify the problems associated with them. On the one hand, fewer felons would resort to illegal methods to obtain them, and the government would save a pretty penny from repealing countless drug-prevention programs. However, since one's judgement inherently goes kaput while one is inebriated, instances of of hit-and-run accidents, overdoses and deaths by attempting to conquer Niagara Falls in a garbage pail would increase exponentially. Hell, our actors, musicians and favourite crazy uncles would be dropping like flies.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 02:44:22 PM by Weegee »
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Chupperson Weird

  • Not interested.
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2009, 02:49:07 PM »
I guess you didn't notice already but those people were already using drugs
That was a joke.

« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2009, 03:23:07 PM »
Well, you've shot down one of my points. Congratulations.
YYur  waYur n beYur you Yur plusYur instYur an Yur Yur whaYur

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2009, 03:26:40 PM »
But would they use them more if it was legal to get them? Or would they have to move on to something illegal in order to still be hep and mod?
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

Chupperson Weird

  • Not interested.
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2009, 07:45:03 PM »
I don't think you guys understand these people's mindset in the first place.
That was a joke.

« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2009, 08:17:53 PM »
Please elaborate, Chup. As far as I was concerned, the average stoner's mindset shifts from the initial, "Hey guys! Let's smoke some weed because it's supposed to make you feel good or at least popular!" to the eventual, "OH GOD I THIINK I'LL DIE IF I DON'T GET JUST ONE MORE HIT BECAUSE MY LIFE SUCKS, lol".
YYur  waYur n beYur you Yur plusYur instYur an Yur Yur whaYur

Luigison

  • Old Person™
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2009, 08:29:34 AM »
I think that both tobacco and marijuana should be legal, but regulated by the FDA so that they require a prescription from a doctor. 

I also retook the test:


If nothing else that was an incredibly interesting video. Thank you for sharing, Luigison.
You're welcome.  In case anyone missed it:  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2550156453790090544
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 08:34:00 AM by Luigison »
“Evolution has shaped us with perceptions that allow us to survive. But part of that involves hiding from us the stuff we don’t need to know."

Glorb

  • Banned
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2009, 01:34:44 PM »
What doctor in his/her right mind would prescribe tobacco to anyone ever? Weed I can almost understand (though not condone), but prescribing something with a surgeon general's warning makes no sense.
every

Luigison

  • Old Person™
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2009, 02:06:28 PM »
I should have said nicotine.  Tobacco cigarettes, chew, and dip are nicotine delivery systems.  Do you think people would smoke, chew, or dip if the products did not contain nicotine or would nicotine free products be as popular as nonalcoholic whiskey?  If the nicotine required a prescription do you think companies would be allowed to advertise on TV and in magazines like other prescription drugs?
“Evolution has shaped us with perceptions that allow us to survive. But part of that involves hiding from us the stuff we don’t need to know."

Forest Guy

  • Anything else?
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2009, 01:05:04 AM »
A few weeks ago I quit the Republican Party. I sent in a voter registration modification form, and joined the Libertarian Party.


And yeah, I think everyone here could recall my "Every Drug Should Be Legal" topic from a while back.
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