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Author Topic: The HOPEFUL thread: Be happy here!  (Read 1273125 times)

Jman

  • Score
« Reply #3465 on: July 25, 2008, 12:29:04 PM »
Well, I won 2nd place in the tournament playing as Zelda... I lost to a guy named Matt playing as Ike.  But I still won a $15 GameStop card

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2nd place as Zelda?  Kudos to you, my friend.  I am not very good with Zelda at all.  Anybody can win with Ike...he is so very powerful.
I always figured "Time to tip the scales" was Wario's everyday motto.

« Reply #3466 on: July 25, 2008, 12:51:45 PM »
Ike will probably be at the top of the Brawl tier list. He's a lot like SSBM Sheik and SSB Kirby; he's at the top of the tier and as an added bonus, he's easy to learn. It sets him apart from other top tier characters like Fox and Falco (who are notoriously difficult to master).
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 02:58:39 PM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

BriGuy92

  • Luck of the Irish
« Reply #3467 on: July 25, 2008, 02:44:45 PM »
Agh, tiers are a lie.
In other news, I just recently discovered Audiosurf, and am enjoying it greatly.
Know the most important contribution of the organ Fund science girls type. It's true!

« Reply #3468 on: July 25, 2008, 02:50:25 PM »
Agh, tiers are a lie.

They are not. The unanimous consensus among all competitive players (some of which are the best players in the world) is that tiers exist. They argue that it would be almost impossible to balance a game of unlike characters; without specific redesign, characters would have the tendency to fall into tiers by dint of their myriad variables (differing attack power, running speed, etc.). Furthermore, the developers cannot foresee top-level strategies, and thus even their deliberate efforts could fail to balance the game at a professional level. Years of empirical results support this conclusion as well; national tournament-winners of Melee almost always use Marth, Fox, Falco and Sheik.

I guess among noncompetitive players, a low tier character could be used just as well as a high tier character (possibly due to the fact that the low tier user is just a better player than the high tier user), but if two master players are in a match (the highest possible metagame) and one is using Pichu and the other is using Sheik, chances are the player using Sheik will ultimately win. It's just common sense; Sheik has amazing combo capability, intense speed and several advance techniques (wavedashing, fast fall, etc.), while Pichu has poor grab and attack range. On top of that, he is easily comboed despite his light weight (not to mention Pichu inflicts self-damage). Pichu has some good points, but his cons far outweigh them while Sheik's pros outweigh her cons (and her cons aren't as crippling as Pichu's).
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 03:11:47 PM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #3469 on: July 25, 2008, 03:10:43 PM »
Mmmmm, copypasta.

How soon after Melee was the tear list conceived? We still don't have a Brawl one and the general consensus is that there's a fair sense of balance this time around with no glitches yet found that give any one character outstanding advantages over others... and no one list has been widely agreed upon as of yet. One will happen when Ike is declared the only good character in the game and all the twelve-year-olds believe it and become Ike users and I'm the only Ness on the planet, of course...

I find tier lists extremely robotic. When everybody's using characters from a pool of three, where's the excitement? One should want to win using their favorite character (who is their favorite for reasons other than "lol fox ken wavshine its grate") and give them a new glory that their opponents wouldn't believe. Like a friend of mine who makes Ganondorf really scary.
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

« Reply #3470 on: July 25, 2008, 03:13:38 PM »
Hey, there isn't anything wrong with that, but it'd be extremely tough to do so if you were a master and trying to fight Ken with Mewtwo while he's using Marth.

Oddly enough, Falco is one of my favorite characters and he'd be my choice if I was going to a tournament.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 03:15:37 PM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

Glorb

  • Banned
« Reply #3471 on: July 26, 2008, 07:27:54 PM »
I'm in a good mood because I just found out MushroomJunkie got banned super-hard. This may make me a bad person, but his final few posts are some of the funniest stuff I've ever read.
every

Shyguy92

  • Ridicules
« Reply #3472 on: July 26, 2008, 08:37:33 PM »
I thought it was ridicules*. Had he been doing things to anger the mods before?

***  :(
« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 12:53:07 PM by Shyguy92 »
"it's always the present"

« Reply #3473 on: July 26, 2008, 08:58:16 PM »
Tiers are just a complex array of inaccuracy.
ROM hacking with a slice of life.

« Reply #3474 on: July 26, 2008, 09:01:06 PM »
This coming from a guy who has probably never played in a real tournament. And I'm not talking about the ones they hold at a local Blockbuster.
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

Shyguy92

  • Ridicules
« Reply #3475 on: July 26, 2008, 10:10:39 PM »
And I'm not talking about the ones they hold at a local Blockbuster.
So that's one of the fake ones, I guess?
"it's always the present"

« Reply #3476 on: July 27, 2008, 10:38:44 AM »
It isn't fake, but no one who competes or has competed at the national level ever participates in them. "Real tournament" probably wasn't the best way to put it. "Amateur tournament" is more like it.

I've never actually participated in a national tournament either, but I'll believe someone who says "tiers exist" and has competed at a national level over someone who says "tiers don't exist" and has never competed in a national tournament.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 11:00:04 AM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

MaxVance

  • Vance Vance Revolution
« Reply #3477 on: July 27, 2008, 02:56:02 PM »
I think tiers exist only because the people who set the tiers lock themselves into one specific style of play that reinforces that tier.
Remember that your first Goomba boldly you walk? When Mario touched that mushroom being brought up more largely remember that you are surprised? Miscalculate your jump that pit remember that it falls?

SushieBoy

  • Giddy fangirl
« Reply #3478 on: July 27, 2008, 03:16:22 PM »
They are not. The unanimous consensus among all competitive players (some of which are the best players in the world) is that tiers exist. They argue that it would be almost impossible to balance a game of unlike characters; without specific redesign, characters would have the tendency to fall into tiers by dint of their myriad variables (differing attack power, running speed, etc.). Furthermore, the developers cannot foresee top-level strategies, and thus even their deliberate efforts could fail to balance the game at a professional level. Years of empirical results support this conclusion as well; national tournament-winners of Melee almost always use Marth, Fox, Falco and Sheik.

I guess among noncompetitive players, a low tier character could be used just as well as a high tier character (possibly due to the fact that the low tier user is just a better player than the high tier user), but if two master players are in a match (the highest possible metagame) and one is using Pichu and the other is using Sheik, chances are the player using Sheik will ultimately win. It's just common sense; Sheik has amazing combo capability, intense speed and several advance techniques (wavedashing, fast fall, etc.), while Pichu has poor grab and attack range. On top of that, he is easily comboed despite his light weight (not to mention Pichu inflicts self-damage). Pichu has some good points, but his cons far outweigh them while Sheik's pros outweigh her cons (and her cons aren't as crippling as Pichu's).

Poppycock!  It's just a game, you don't need any of these "tiers". Any character can beat any other character if the player has enough skill. And I doubt anyone will ever use Pichu in a tourney, that's just silly. But if you feel like following these things then do it.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

« Reply #3479 on: July 27, 2008, 04:06:47 PM »
Yes, it's true that any character can beat another if the player has enough skills, but that's not what tiers are for. Tiers describe how a certain character might fair if he/she was facing another character at the highest metagame (basically, two players of equal skill fighting it out). I already mentioned that at low metagames, a Mewtwo player could beat a Fox player if the Mewtwo player was just better than the Fox player. Also, the reason why no one will use Pichu in a national tournament is because he fairs poorly against high tier characters (and you seem to at least agree with that statement, unless "that's just silly" totally means something else).
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

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