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Author Topic: Mariology (serious posts wanted)  (Read 477364 times)

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« Reply #1365 on: September 29, 2007, 10:18:37 AM »
Oops. When you see the game through Mario's eyes, you are looking north, assuming "up" is north. Wasn't thinking. >_>

Though, if you look at the map, you'd have to go north to get to Rogueport by sailing (it's only touching water on the south side) so, technically, it could be anywhere.

Also, at the end of the game when Mario and Peach leave Rogueport via the same ship they used to go there, the captain says "Set a course for the Mushroom Kingdom!" This leads me to believe that Rogueport is not in the Mushroom Kingdom, but most likely in the Mushroom World.
We went to see them for the first time in 5 years because they were going away for 3 years.

« Reply #1366 on: September 29, 2007, 11:53:46 AM »
Aww...spam pwned me!

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #1367 on: September 30, 2007, 09:00:15 PM »
Yeah, Nintendo tends to use the term Mushroom Kingdom to refer to the whole world. For my purposes, I'm defining the Mushroom Kingdom as the non-Bowser levels in SMB 1, Lost Levels, and SMB3, the castle town and Mushroom Way in SMRPG (and possibly Bandit's Way), and some places (not totally sure which yet, though they're pretty much all on the Mushroom Continent) in Paper Mario and M&L:PiT. Also, most of NSMB is probably in the Mushroom Kingdom, but I'll have to wait to squeeze that in until I can get another copy of it (I threw away the cart by accident about a year ago).
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

« Reply #1368 on: September 30, 2007, 10:01:24 PM »
The inter-dimensional town of Flipside was stated to be "far from the Mushroom Kingdom" in SPM.

« Reply #1369 on: October 02, 2007, 04:59:53 PM »
Yeah, Nintendo tends to use the term Mushroom Kingdom to refer to the whole world. For my purposes, I'm defining the Mushroom Kingdom as the non-Bowser levels in SMB 1, Lost Levels, and SMB3, the castle town and Mushroom Way in SMRPG (and possibly Bandit's Way), and some places (not totally sure which yet, though they're pretty much all on the Mushroom Continent) in Paper Mario and M&L:PiT. Also, most of NSMB is probably in the Mushroom Kingdom, but I'll have to wait to squeeze that in until I can get another copy of it (I threw away the cart by accident about a year ago).
In a map I'm making, The Mushroom Kingdom is split between three major islands. One holding most of the locations in PM2, another holding most of the other locations as well as the Bean-Bean, Koopa, and Nimbus Kingdoms, and a third being Yoshi's Island and its surrounding islands, including Delfino.
OH, NO! There goes Tokyo! GO, GO GODZILLA!
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Yinzers Rule!

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #1370 on: October 05, 2007, 09:15:36 AM »
Are you basing the main part off of this:
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

« Reply #1371 on: October 06, 2007, 09:44:46 AM »
Actually, no. I've never seen that picture before. But the resemblence between my personal map and that is somewhat uncanny.
OH, NO! There goes Tokyo! GO, GO GODZILLA!
------
Yinzers Rule!

MaxVance

  • Vance Vance Revolution
« Reply #1372 on: October 06, 2007, 11:09:33 AM »
It's from the SMAS/SMA4 version of SMB3.
Remember that your first Goomba boldly you walk? When Mario touched that mushroom being brought up more largely remember that you are surprised? Miscalculate your jump that pit remember that it falls?

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #1373 on: October 06, 2007, 11:38:05 AM »
WARNING: This post is too long.

Okay, I haven't gotten my scanner hooked up yet, so here's a photo of my map:



(If it doesn't show up, try http://messiah.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30997498&l=d1768&id=55303319)

Hopefully you can read enough of the captions to make sense of it. This is only part of the northern hemisphere, but I'll hopefully have a full map eventually. The two big continents on the left are the mainlands of the Mushroom Kingdom, where Super Mario Bros and The Lost Levels took place. I pretty much made up the shapes, at least the parts that weren't based on SMB3.

The medium-sized multi-colored island below Dark Land is Rogueport and the surrounding areas, except for Fahr Outpost, which is way up to the north. There are two territories on the Rogueport island that aren't anything in the game, and which I may get rid of in the next revision; they're only there now because I wanted it to look a little more balanced after I took Fahr Outpost off.

Dinosaur Land is to the west of Isle Delfino and its surrounding islands (a turtle, a crab, a jellyfish, and two amorphous ones). You probably can't tell from this size, but I drew Isle Delfino backwards before checking, so I'll be sure to fix that in the next revision too.

The Warp Zone from SMB3 is northwest of World 7 from SMB3, since I figured it fit in with the Pipe Maze's theme (you may have noticed that I don't really consistently follow either standard for SMB3 world names), and similarly, Tiny-Huge Island is off the coast of Giant Land (I'm planning on eventually incorporating several locations from SM64, assuming that the paintings are paintings of actual places). Speaking of Giant Land, I added a rather giant piece of land to it. This is the place where you enter the warp pipe to the mainland in World 4, extended southwardly. Water Land is a pretty faithful recreation of the World 3 map screen, including the island that's shaped like Japan.

On the northern main Mushroom continent, I've started putting in PM and SMRPG locations. Toad Town is in the light green territory between Grass Land and Dry Dry Desert, and is meant to also represent the "Mushroom Kingdom" area in SMRPG (As for the port in PM, pretend there's a river there). Goomba Village is to the west, right on the border of the blue territory. Tadpole Pond, Rose Town, and the Forest Maze are to the south in the red territory, Moleville is in the green one, Booster Tower is in the red-orange one, Seaside Town is on the coast of the lighter green one, and Monstro Town, Bean Valley, and Barrel Volcano are in the one that looks like a liver. I have some other versions of the map where Toad Town is more southwesterly, giving more room for Forever Forest, and I'll try to get it closer to that in the next revision.

To the north is World 6 from SMB3, which at the time I labeled as Sherbet Land, but I may change it back to Ice(d) Land later. Shiver City is northwest, the Crystal Palace is northeast, and Starborn Valley is off the map farther north, possibly on the North Pole.

Since this is only a partial map, many places are still off the map, including Jewelry Land from Yoshi's Safari, Sarasaland, the Beanbean Kingdom, and the Waffle Kingdom (which I'm assuming does really exist), all of which have their directions marked on the edges of the map.

Originally, I made it a point not to label the compass with directions, but I think it's probably safe to say that up is north, right is east, etc. Also, while I tried to use a different color for each territory, the fact that two of them have the same color does not necessarily imply anything about their common allegiances. Also, the colors imply nothing about the territories themselves; though you can probably see a few where I did intentionally choose the color based on the area itself, I mostly chose them just because they looked good in that location.

Finally, feel free to challenge (or praise) me on any decisions with the map (but be prepared for a good deal of answers that are just "I liked it better that way").
« Last Edit: October 06, 2007, 11:39:48 AM by CrossEyed7 »
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #1374 on: October 08, 2007, 06:06:35 AM »
I think I'm probably going to switch the positions of Sarasaland and the Beanbean Kingdom. The Beanbean Kingdom pretty much has to be in the northern hemisphere to make sense, since Joke's End is in the north, (the spots in the overworld between interesting places are all labeled with compass directions, and up is north) and north in the southern hemisphere is the equator, which is not frozen.

Also, I may move Diamond City to Jewelry Land, for obvious reasons.

I really wish I had Super Mario Land 2 and Wario Land 1 - 3, because I haven't been able to find decent map information about them anywhere.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 06:08:40 AM by CrossEyed7 »
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

MaxVance

  • Vance Vance Revolution
« Reply #1375 on: October 08, 2007, 02:37:01 PM »
No, the Beanbean Kingdom's position is correct. The portion of Stardust Fields that the Mushroom Kingdom owned was in the north, so they must be connected there. Joke's End is kept cold by the terrible jokes that end up there.
Remember that your first Goomba boldly you walk? When Mario touched that mushroom being brought up more largely remember that you are surprised? Miscalculate your jump that pit remember that it falls?

Reading

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« Reply #1376 on: October 08, 2007, 05:59:41 PM »
Wow. That map looks really...professional. Though, I have to criticize it a bit. Sorry if you're already thinking about these things, but I just had to point them out...

I think the areas in SM64 were described as "painting worlds" a few times, and in the guide, it states that Bowser may be planning to expand the painting worlds "so that they encompass all of reality". I'm not exactly sure how reliable the guide is, but this and other hints within the game seem to imply that the SM64 levels are not actual places.

There seems to be some discrepancy with your map about the locations in Paper Mario. On the northern Mushroom Kingdom continent, Dry Dry Desert seems to be the same place as World 2 in SMB3. Would Grass Land, then, be the location of the Koopa Bros.'s fortress? I don't see any room where Gusty Gulch and Tubba Blubba's Castle would fit in, since in the PM map they are between the two places I just mentioned. The red rose-shaped area above Toad Town I'm assuming is Flower Fields, correct? You said "pretend there's a river" for the Toad Town port, but in the PM map, Toad Town seems to be at the southern edge of a continent, with Lavalava Island below that, which doesn't seem to be on this map at all.

Speaking of "a red rose-shaped area", there's lots of areas on both main continents that are unlabled. Are you going to fill those in eventually?

The Mario and Luigi: Partners in Time areas don't seem to be on the map. They're all within the Mushroom Kingdom, but that game's map seems somewhat inconsistant and cramped; Star Hill is to the north of Toad Town, Gritzy Desert is to the northeast of Hollijolli Village, etc...and since there doesn't seem to be much space between locations on that map, it leads me to believe that those aren't the actual locations of the places, they're just there on the map because that's where the heroes go to. Though, it's possible that Hollijolli Village is indeed to the southwest of Gritzy Desert, since you climb up to it in the first part of the game, which may mean that it's just cold because it's at a high elevation. Though, given the village's Christmas theme, it's possible that it's near the North Pole, possibly close to Starborn Valley. These locations do have to fit in somewhere; Gritzy Desert probably isn't the same desert as Dry Dry Desert, and Toadwood Forest probably isn't connected to Forever Forest or whatever. I mention the forests because Professor E. Gadd mentions a location called Boo Woods in the game that he says he will build a new laboratory at. This is obviously the setting of Luigi's Mansion, so I'm not exactly sure where Boo Woods would be.

About the Beanbean Kingdom, yeah, it needs to connect with the Mushroom Kingdom at some point since Stardust Fields is owned partly by both kingdoms; the Beanbean Kingdom is to the south of the Mushroom Kingdom (possibly southwest).

I believe Wario Land 1 takes place on an island called Kitchen Island (or was that 2? Or something?). There's a map screen in Wario Land 3. Sarasaland is made of four kingdoms, so if there's any maps/hints in the game, you should use those. Super Mario Land 2's setting is called "Mario Land", which I assume to be an island as well. Since you don't have any of these games (and neither do I, except for having WL3 for a short period of time), there may be some resources/clarity for these maps at the Super Mario Wiki you could use.

About the map itself in general: I remember reading somewhere that the Mushroom Kingdom is a "gateway" to the Mushroom World, which is where the seven worlds (not including Bowser's world) in SMB3 are. That may mean they aren't connected to the Mushroom Kingdom's mainland, but I don't think there's any way to know for sure, and all this "Kingdom"/"World" business is quite confusing in the first place.

Not to compete with you or anything, but I've been thinking for a while of making a map of the Mushroom World myself. Though, I intended to include some places from my fan-fiction since that's what I was going to use it for. Would you mind if I borrowed a few elements from your map for the game locations?
We went to see them for the first time in 5 years because they were going away for 3 years.

« Reply #1377 on: October 08, 2007, 06:22:03 PM »
The Mario and Luigi: Partners in Time areas don't seem to be on the map. They're all within the Mushroom Kingdom, but that game's map seems somewhat inconsistant and cramped; Star Hill is to the north of Toad Town..

How was that inconsistant? Star Hill was to the North of Toad Town in the first game it was featured in, the first Paper Mario game (called Shooting Star Summit).

Wait a second.. Star Hill was in Mario RPG first, and it was to the South/Southwest of the Mushroom Kingdom. I guess that would make the map in M&L2 a bit insonsistant.

I just confused myself.. I think I need to make a map as well.
Kinopio is the ultimate video game character! Who else can drive a kart, host parties, play tennis, give good advice and items, and is almost always happy??

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #1378 on: October 09, 2007, 12:40:37 PM »
Yeah, I haven't totally ironed out all the Paper Mario stuff, mainly because I haven't been able to find a map online, and I'm too lazy to turn the Wii on and check my VC copy of it.

I never had an SM64 guide, and I'm about 6 hours away from my SM64 manual, so I can't check it, but I had always just assumed that some of the paintings were of actual places, and they became portals to those places. Part of the motivation is the fact that some of them have shown up in spin-offs, and my ideal goal is to get every Mario place ever shown represented on the map (excluding the party games, because those are just too ridiculous). However, none of them have any integral locations; in a map I made a while ago, which wasn't nearly as good, the worlds that were represented were either insignificant islands or little dots in places that would have been on the map anyway.

I'm not totally sure about the location of Flower Fields, since it could really be anywhere. I know it has a set location on the PM map, but if it's really only accessible through the door in the garden, it seems like it ought to be more remote, just like I moved Fahr Outpost way off of its original location on the Magical Map. The red rose-shaped area would be a good location, now that I think of it. Originally, I was just trying to make it look like a Fire Flower from SMW for no real reason. (Incidentally, I'm not totally sure yet on the scale of the map. I do think that this section represents around 1/4 or 1/5 of the planet, but I'm not sure how big the planet is, since Mario Galaxy will surely show that in the Mushroom Universe, planets can have whatever gravity they want, regardless of size.)

I'm planning on leaving a lot of the sections unlabeled, to give the map more longevity, since Nintendo's bound to introduce dozens more places in the next few years. They're intended to mainly represent the unnamed (AFAIK) worlds in SMB, SMBTLL, and SMB Special on the PC-88, with around 8 more to be safe. (I'm still working on the worlds from NSMB, but I've placed most of them in a semi-logical arrangement in pre-existing locations)

I also think that the "map" in Partners in Time is primarily representative, and doesn't necessarily mean that the locations are in the directions shown from each other, and most of them almost certainly aren't that close together. When I work on the second good version of the map this weekend, I'm going to try to focus mainly on PM, PiT, and the Beanbean Kingdom's location in relation to the Mushroom Kingdom.

One of the biggest things I'm struggling with is what relation Star Hill from SMRPG, Shooting Star Summit from PM, Stardust Fields from SS, and Star Hill from PiT have to each other. Fortunately, as far as I can recall, Superstar Saga is the only game that explicitly gives compass directions, meaning that I can rotate the other ones as much as I want, within reason. My theory now is that the big body of water in the center of SMRPG's world map isn't really there, and is instead where several PM locations are, including Shooting Star Summit and the surrounding purple starry land, which leads to Star Hill. PiT shows the castle side of Star Hill, going through SSS, while SMRPG shows the far side of it. However, that's probably inconsistent with the actual game somehow, and I really need to play it again over the weekend to refresh my memory. Meanwhile, Stardust Fields is an unconnected location to the south. Or north.

Though I've never played Super Mario Land 2, I've previously tried to explain it by saying that after SMB, Mario took up residence in one of the end-level castles to hold it until the Mushroom People could repopulate the area, since it's the best explanation I've thought of for why Mario suddenly has a personal castle, and then never has it again. However, since I've never played it, I have no real idea how well the in-game map screens fit with that theory. Hopefully the Super Mario Wiki has some maps or explanations of it and the other games. I don't think they did the last time I checked, but they are expanding pretty fast.

I do have Warioland 4, but I'm not sure whether those places are real. Whether they are might depend on where I decide to put the pyramid itself, and vice-versa. That might have to wait until a later version of the map, after I've placed the deserts and decided where Diamond City is, since the pyramid is shown to be somewhere that Wario can drive to, and he goes through a desert on the way.

I really don't have any good theories as to what the "gateway to the Mushroom World" thing means. I do tend to take a more selective approach with older Mario canon, since they probably hadn't standardized all the names back then, so it's really hard to know what they meant in 1988 by "Mushroom Kingdom" and "Mushroom World." Still, I'll research that as much as I can, and hopefully pull something useful out of it.

And feel free to borrow stuff from the map, as long as you give me a cut of the profit. :) I wouldn't consider it competition at all, just getting more perspectives, which I could really use, seeing as I'm the guy who once wrote up a 100-page long timeline about how everything Mario fits together, then realized that the thing I had based it all on was a year off. If I'm not checked, I'll get way too deep into my imperfect opinions, and no one wants to see that.

Incidentally, I've heard World 2 of SMB3 referred to as the Koophari Desert before. Does anyone know the origins of that?
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #1379 on: October 09, 2007, 01:44:23 PM »
Quote
Though I've never played Super Mario Land 2, I've previously tried to explain it by saying that after SMB, Mario took up residence in one of the end-level castles to hold it until the Mushroom People could repopulate the area, since it's the best explanation I've thought of for why Mario suddenly has a personal castle, and then never has it again. However, since I've never played it, I have no real idea how well the in-game map screens fit with that theory. Hopefully the Super Mario Wiki has some maps or explanations of it and the other games. I don't think they did the last time I checked, but they are expanding pretty fast.

Trust me. It doesn't fit at all. Mario Land is it's own kingdom. While it contains various Mushroom Kingdom properties, such as the Mushrooms, Fire Flowers and Starmen, as well as Goombas and Koopas, everything else in the game seems to be exclusive, aside from Tatanga's appearance as the boss of Space Zone, which is basically just a solidification of SML2's place as a sequel.

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