Author Topic: Determinism vs. Free Will (Read 13839 times)

PaperLuigi · « **on:** October 01, 2009, 01:09:24 PM »

"Determinism is the view that every event, including human cognition, behavior, decision, and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences."

"Free will raises the question whether, and in what sense, rational agents exercise control over their actions, decisions, choices."

Are you a determinist or do you believe in free will? Do we have the ability to make our own choices, or are our decisions determined by prior events? Discuss. Please cite evidence to support your beliefs.

Chupperson Weird · « **Reply #1 on:** October 01, 2009, 04:58:42 PM »

TEM · « **Reply #2 on:** October 01, 2009, 05:04:12 PM »

The reason I don't really like this argument is that if it was decided one way or another it wouldn't matter.

Kuromatsu · « **Reply #3 on:** October 01, 2009, 05:12:23 PM »

So in other words, we don't have a choice about having a choice.

Luigison · « **Reply #4 on:** October 01, 2009, 05:27:40 PM »

Do subatomic particles have free will? What do the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and Schrödinger equation suggest in this regard? I've been studying this for years and haven't drawn a definite conclusion, but believe that if humans have free will then so do subatomic particles and vice versa. I use the term "believe" here because the quantum world has not yet been fully reconciled with the macroscopic world.

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #5 on:** October 01, 2009, 06:03:34 PM »

Quoth that guy from Knowing: "I think [dukar] just happens"

Granted, through cause and effect, and taking into account that stuff Luigison so accurately mentioned about particles, one can reasonably say that there's not really free will--but in the sense that we have no control at the same time we're being controlled.

So I suppose I believe in determinism and free will at the same time. Everything we know is because of everyone and everything we've ever experienced with our senses, but we're the ones who put all that together and decide what to do with it.

Weegee · « **Reply #6 on:** October 01, 2009, 06:05:41 PM »

Kuro... posted?

Anyway, I'm just hoping that this doesn't get into another mind-numbing debate over the unanswerable question of predestination.

Luigison, wouldn't, you know, bacteria or something make a better comparison than subatomic particles? Inanimate objects can only be influenced by surrounding forces, so free will seems somewhat out of the question in my opinion.

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #7 on:** October 01, 2009, 06:46:51 PM »

Quote from: Chupperson Weird on October 01, 2009, 04:58:42 PM

No.

Yes.

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #8 on:** October 01, 2009, 06:55:24 PM »

Quote from: TEM on October 01, 2009, 05:04:12 PM

The reason I don't really like this argument is that if it was decided one way or another it wouldn't matter.

Yeah, I see your point. This stuff has always intrigued me though so I thought I'd ask.

Luigison · « **Reply #9 on:** October 01, 2009, 07:02:00 PM »

Bacteria may be a better comparison, but we are all made of the same stuff. Although, it could be argued that we are more than a sum of our parts. Brain scans can tell us what we are going to think before we are even consciously aware of it. That doesn't prove anything, but adds a new wrinkle to the discussion.

Turtlekid1 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 01, 2009, 08:55:57 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinist

Weegee · « **Reply #11 on:** October 01, 2009, 09:09:45 PM »

In other words, half of us are ****ed.

Of course, predestination is a concept so mind-bogglingly impossible to prove or refute that it's barely worth discussing. Besides, we're still making choices for ourselves as far as we're concerned, and therefore whatever we decide to do was predetermined anyway.

I have no idea as to what I just said.

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #12 on:** October 01, 2009, 10:45:52 PM »

Meh, perhaps this topic should be locked if you guys are not interested in talking about it.

Chupperson Weird · « **Reply #13 on:** October 02, 2009, 12:40:10 AM »

We're talking about it, just in a different manner than how you expected.

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #14 on:** October 02, 2009, 12:51:22 AM »

I didn't expect anything though. The conversation as a whole is going well, but some of you have expressed disinterest.

I'm good with it if you guys are. Don't mind me.

Forest Guy · « **Reply #15 on:** October 02, 2009, 12:51:21 PM »

I'm a big advocate of free will. I just have a lot of faith in the human spirit and mind. I really believe we can choose our own destinies. Other cliched lines. Etc...

Luigison · « **Reply #16 on:** October 02, 2009, 03:51:11 PM »

Anyone willing to argue that single celled organisms have free will? Or is it just stimulus/response?

Mr. Wiggles · « **Reply #17 on:** October 02, 2009, 04:00:46 PM »

Well, I can safely say I don't believe outcomes can be predetermined. There's far too many factors within the problem itself, as well as unlimited outside factors that can change the actual outcome.

As humans, we are at the top of the food chain, we're the dominant species. Can you honestly say we were destined to one day claim the Earth? The ability to think outside the box and decide for ourselves what to do with our existence has helped us push forward with our evolution as a civilization. Whole economies, societies, technology. I won't say there's no way this wasn't meant to happen, but it seems highly doubtful to me, considering how in certain time prerios, change was hindered by a number of factors.

Ok, that's my 2 cents. Your turn.

Luigison · « **Reply #18 on:** October 02, 2009, 07:06:51 PM »

"While the individual man is an insoluble puzzle, in the aggregate he becomes a mathematical certainty. You can, for example, never foretell what any one man will be up to, but you can say with precision what an average number will be up to. Individuals vary, but percentages remain constant. So says the statistician." ~Arthur Conan Doyle The Complete Sherlock Holmes

Relating this to the particle/wave duality of photons in the famous double-slit experiment: Quantum mechanics does not tell us which slit an individual particle will go through, but the resulting wave interference pattern is certain. Maybe the individual photon can pick which slit to go through, but the average is determined.

Could we have both ways? Individuals have free will, but crowds actions are determined?

Glorb · « **Reply #19 on:** October 03, 2009, 07:53:57 AM »

I don't see why we even need this discussion. Each person is different and it's pretty much impossible to categorize how life works/doesn't work, at least in this plane of existance or whatever. We have far more important things to think on; even if we did figure the whole thing out, our lives would not be changed one iota. In other words,

Just live your life
Ay ay, ay ay, ay oh

Luigison · « **Reply #20 on:** October 03, 2009, 11:07:12 AM »

Of course we don't "need" this conversation. We could just be banding rocks together or picking fleas of one another, but one never knows where a line of discussion might lead. I am of the opinion that we all change all the time. I'm no longer the naive little boy who believed the imaginary characters my parents taught me. Nor am I the same person I was yesterday. We live and we learn. Of course we may never learn the absolute answer to this particular discussion, but to follow your philosophy would lead to no new discoveries about ourselves or the world we live in.

On a lighter, but more relevant note here are some Rush lyrics to mull over:

There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance take,
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance.

A planet of playthings,
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
"The stars aren't aligned,
Or the gods are malign..."
Blame is better to give than receive.

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill.

There are those who think that they were dealt a losing hand,
The cards were stacked against them; they weren't born in Lotusland.

All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate.
Kicked in the face,
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate.
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill.

Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete.
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet.

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill.

TEM · « **Reply #21 on:** October 03, 2009, 11:12:45 AM »

Here's how I feel about it.

Quote from: Scientists

We have proven that humans have true free will!

"Oh." *plays games*

Alternatively,

Quote from: Scientists

We have proven that humans are slaves to sensory input and chemical reactions!

"Oh." *plays games*

Mr. Wiggles · « **Reply #22 on:** October 03, 2009, 04:29:51 PM »

Quote from: Luigison on October 02, 2009, 07:06:51 PM

Could we have both ways? Individuals have free will, but crowds actions are determined?

Isn't that essentially the formula for life?

Yes, demographics exist because as people we choose to associate with groups that share traits and beliefs with each other, creating a sense of security with one another. One may find himself influenced by that group simply because he feels that action is secure because it is approved by the group. That doesn't mean that the individual will always do what the group mentality does. He may very well break off and do his own thing if he starts feeling uncomfortable with the groups actions.

Weegee · « **Reply #23 on:** October 03, 2009, 04:59:00 PM »

Really, what some call "determinism" is just one component of why me make the decisions we do through our own free will. An absolutely deterministic reality would be one in which everyone breathes, blinks, and thinks simultaneously.

I feel as though I should be contributing something original to this discussion instead of paraphrasing what Mr. Wiggles just said... meh.

Luigison · « **Reply #24 on:** October 03, 2009, 05:32:11 PM »

I haven't believed in absolute determinism for about two decades. Back than I thought that if one knew everything for an instance s/he would know everything before and after that instance.

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #25 on:** October 03, 2009, 08:02:07 PM »

You analyze things deep enough, you'll be able to predict anything--just ask Dr. Manhatten.

Turtlekid1 · « **Reply #26 on:** October 03, 2009, 08:27:50 PM »

This topic is starting to reminding me of something...

CrossEyed7 · « **Reply #27 on:** October 10, 2009, 02:21:13 PM »

Is free will really free will without some determinism? If I can't point to a reason for why I choose the things I do, do I really choose them, or is my mind just flipping a coin?

Luigison · « **Reply #28 on:** June 01, 2011, 03:42:11 PM »

But coin flipping is not random. As a teenager I found a way to flip a coin the same way almost every time and now it's been proven: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1697475

Also, this goes back to my original reasoning: http://bigthink.com/ideas/37871

(Sorry to revive an old topic, but I think this is one that could use more discussion especially in light of other discussions on this board and the fact that we've had several new active member since this thread was made.)

Edit: New members might also want to read http://themushroomkingdom.net/board/index.php?topic=13249.0;all and http://themushroomkingdom.net/board/index.php?topic=12097.0 and the even older http://themushroomkingdom.net/board/index.php?topic=12097.0 I'm not trying to make this a religious discussion, but determinism and/or freewill are often part of religious discussions.

BP · « **Reply #29 on:** June 01, 2011, 04:57:04 PM »

What's your religion is older than itself :J

I don't believe in randomness, and my full faith in cause and effect has led me to rule out free will. But there's enough of an illusion of it that it's all good, and the mentality that you can't choose and shouldn't make an effort to do so is simply a cause that'll create different (and probably less favorable) effects compared to the effects of you having the idea that you can choose, you get me?

On a similar topic, those fictions where there's an enormous multiverse where every time someone is offered a choice that universe splits in two and that in each, the person takes the opposite action (I believe the DC Universe works this way) really bother me because what are the odds that, no matter how many times a day you or anyone you know is offered the chance to kill just for the heck of it, it doesn't happen

Theoretically every time you're in the kitchen with your friend and happen to see a knife there should be a 50/50 chance that you will mercilessly slice and dice 'em regardless of your personality or mental state, this universe must just have the most incredible luck that things instead tend to make sense in it

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #30 on:** June 01, 2011, 06:12:15 PM »

My problem with free will (or the claim "I will") is its presupposition of "I" being the necessary condition for the act of willing. In actuality, "I" or the ego is composed of and dictated by a complex of competing unconscious wills. For example, the ego's will to eat is dictated by the unconscious will to hunger, the will to exercise is dictated by the will to health, and so on. In short, the ego is causally determined by the unfettered assertion of wills or natural laws. The ego can act in accordance with these wills (Schopenhauer described this as physical freedom) but it cannot be the necessary condition for them.

That's just my take on it. Some might cite this as evidence for an ultimate cause, i.e. God, but they'd run into the same problem I think.

CrossEyed7 · « **Reply #31 on:** June 01, 2011, 10:18:56 PM »

I see my mind as a company where I'm the CEO. There's a whole bunch of people sitting around a table with competing interests, arguing with each other over which action to take, and I sit back and listen to them all and decide who to listen to.

Everyone around the table is part of me, the whole company is part of me; but the CEO is the irreducible me, the I at the center of all my experiences. The aiua, if you prefer Orson Scott Card's terminology.

Lizard Dude · « **Reply #32 on:** June 02, 2011, 02:19:19 PM »

Does your computer have free will? Obviously not. Do you have free will? No, you are a more complex version of the same thing. Can the computer detect that it doesn't have free will? No, it can only follow its existing IF/THEN statements and can't transcend its own programming to "feel" these "choices" being made. Can you detect that you don't have free will? No, same reason.

Brains have an added advantage over current-day computers in that they can organically add and change programming on the fly (i.e., learning) but your thoughts are still always constrained within the system and aren't ever going to be able to detect the underlying IF/THEN statements.

TEM · « **Reply #33 on:** June 02, 2011, 08:05:19 PM »

So you're saying the IF is... GOD?

PRAISE JESUS

I HAVE SEEN

THE

LIGHT

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #34 on:** June 02, 2011, 09:09:15 PM »

If God is conscious, is it farfetched to say that he too is influenced by unconscious wills?

Luigison · « **Reply #35 on:** June 03, 2011, 08:47:37 AM »

Related: http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_on_dangerous_memes.html

Luigison · « **Reply #36 on:** March 18, 2012, 09:54:45 AM »

I couldn't stop myself from replying to this old thread.