Author Topic: This oughta leave a kid scarred for life.... (Read 9313 times)

Mr. Wiggles · « **on:** January 09, 2005, 09:05:41 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_%28Shadow_Siren%29

I never knew that. Did you know that? That's just scary. By that logic, Flurrie is a dead spirit of Jynx.

_____________________________

Dang Jackie, I don''t want to kiss a short, pale and poor girl.
-Michael Kelso, That 70''s show_

Luigison · « **Reply #1 on:** January 09, 2005, 09:13:14 PM »

Transgender? Huh...

Mr. Wiggles · « **Reply #2 on:** January 09, 2005, 09:18:31 PM »

I just read more on their info for Mario chars. and they said Baby Bowser and Bowser Jr. are the same person so they might be wrong on Vivian too.

_____________________________

Dang Jackie, I don''t want to kiss a short, pale and poor girl.
-Michael Kelso, That 70''s show_

Vidgmchtr · « **Reply #3 on:** January 09, 2005, 10:27:58 PM »

Well, the pages are made by people who don't run the site.

All it takes is for someone to edit it.

But because it said it was confirmed in Japan, it seems true.

Markio · « **Reply #4 on:** January 09, 2005, 10:29:36 PM »

This would be a lot easier to understand if I had that game.

â€œYou never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view.â€ -Atticus Finch

MEGAß¥TE · « **Reply #5 on:** January 09, 2005, 10:59:46 PM »

Vivian is indeed transvestite/transgender in Japan. I checked the Japanese text myself several weeks ago.

Vidgmchtr · « **Reply #6 on:** January 10, 2005, 01:20:48 PM »

Heh heh. I think things like that are pretty funny.

smfan1085 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 17, 2005, 09:40:42 PM »

URRGH! That is totally sick. From now on, I'm definitely considering the English version the "true" version of the game. (I also would consider "true" any other non-perverse versions there might be.)

But this seems like the opposite of the Birdo situation. America was the one at fault then (although they eventually changed Birdo to a girl too).

EDIT: Part of this post didn't make much sense, when I said that I would also consider other non-perverse versions "true". Different versions can't really be all "true". For myself, in a subjective way, I consider the U.S. version to be the "true" one, because that's the one I have.

Sorry for taking up so much space.

Edited by - smfan1085 on 1/23/2005 7:12:28 PM

NintendoExpert89 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 17, 2005, 09:48:32 PM »

That's awful! Vivian would do better as female than a transvestite anyway.

However, Japanese games often contain strange qualities in them. My source is a JP Translation FAQ for PM:TTYD I read at GameFAQs (http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/gamecube/file/paper_mario_2.txt). For example, when Koops gets his name written on the seat of his pants, he says something like "Ow, don't prick me, Pokey!" or something to that extent. In the Japanese version he says "Nokotaro...hey, that tickles." Also, in Twilight Town when the "monster" puts a curse on Mario it says "I bet you thought a pretty (can't recall the exact adjective) lady was going to pop out." In the Japanese version it says something, in my opinion, more targeted towards older kids.

I am feeling fat, and sassy!

Edited by - nintendoexpert89 on 1/17/2005 8:05:42 PM

nintendofreak · « **Reply #9 on:** January 17, 2005, 11:57:33 PM »

I don't see what's so scary. Japan has different standards than we do. And it's just a video game.

Vidgmchtr · « **Reply #10 on:** January 18, 2005, 01:28:12 PM »

As Darkly is writing the names of them on their backs:

Goombella: "Tee-Hee! That tickles!"
Koops: "H-Hey! Think you could ease up on stabbing me, Pokey?"
Flurrie: "Mmmm....A little to the left..."
Yoshi: "Hey! Watch where you're drawing, buddy!"

Although, what they say in the Japanese game sounds funnier.

Edited by - Vidgmchtr on 1/18/2005 12:00:43 PM

Master Mario · « **Reply #11 on:** January 18, 2005, 03:56:48 PM »

O_o I can't believe that Mario stood there and let "him" kiss him! Ack! I-I can't believe it! Good thing Vivian was a girl up in HERE! If I was playing as Mario, I'd do that running thing........ even without the battlefeild! Poor lil plumber dude!

TMK fan since three years ago!

Master Mario · « **Reply #12 on:** January 18, 2005, 11:11:31 PM »

Macho Guns should've stayed! Instead, they come up with YET ANOTHER rhyme for Clubba....... Grubba.......

TMK fan since three years ago!

Vidgmchtr · « **Reply #13 on:** January 19, 2005, 01:26:50 PM »

You know, they could have added the kiss in for the English version, and not have her (or him, whatever) kiss Mario in the original Japanese version. But, one would have to play the original Japanese game to find out.

Why must people be all grossed out about it?

Edited by - Vidgmchtr on 1/19/2005 11:28:15 AM

Nameneko · « **Reply #14 on:** January 19, 2005, 05:52:04 PM »

Does anyone know where to get the Japanese text that references this? If not, could someone post it?
In my opinion, NOA changed this because nowadays, everyone in the US is so un-PC (in a mildly-humorous way, of course). I think that if they kept Vivian a boy (if Vivian was in the first place...) in the English version, some litigation-happy nut would sue the company.

"There are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people."

Edited by - Nameneko on 1/22/2005 9:51:26 PM

MEGAß¥TE · « **Reply #15 on:** January 19, 2005, 08:00:38 PM »

It's in the tattle text:

『ビビアン』よ　カゲ三人組の一人で　いちばん下の妹　・・・じゃなくて　弟ね　さいだいＨＰは『１０』で　こうげき力は『１』　ぼうぎょ力は『０』よ　これといった　とくちょうは　ないみたい　う～ん・・・　それにしても　カレって　なかなか　かわいいわね・・・　ひょっとしたら　あたしよりも　かわいいかも・・・　・・・て　やだっ・・・　あたしったら　なにを　かんがえているのかしら

Edited by - MEGAß¥TE on 1/19/2005 6:01:36 PM

smfan1085 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 22, 2005, 10:01:09 PM »

Nameneko -- PC?? Keeping the character male and transvestite seems far more PC than changing it to female.

Vidgmchtr -- I can't believe anybody - particularly a Mario fan - could NOT be sickened by something like this.

Nameneko · « **Reply #17 on:** January 22, 2005, 11:46:15 PM »

My error, that should probably be un-PC. I'll change that later. I did read the Japanese text and, oddly enough, it makes a bit of sense. In the English version, Goombella gripes that Vivian is cuter than her, and then says something on the lines of, "what I am I saying?" With Vivian a male in the Japanese version, that would make sense for Goombella to be, well, mildly disgusted (?) at the fact that a boy is cuter than her.

"There are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people."

Vidgmchtr · « **Reply #18 on:** January 23, 2005, 12:09:18 AM »

"I can't believe anybody - particularly a Mario fan - could NOT be sickened by something like this."

Uhh, I'm not one of those close-minded idiots who find out something like this and go "Man, that's disgusting."

So, Vivian is a dude in the Japanese version and kissed Mario.....OH NO! IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD! THE APOCALYPSE IS COMING JUST BECAUSE A TRANSVESTITE KISSED MARIO!

Now, you see how completely stupid that sounds? Yeah, so, Paper Mario 2 is more risque when it comes to things like this, and is even more risque in the Japanese version.

But, don't you remember, Miyamoto-san stated before the release of the Gamecube, he wanted to make Mario more mature? .....Well, he probably meant graphically, but maybe he wanted to make the gameplay of some of the Mario games more mature as well, while trying to keep its family....genre.....thing. I stink at wording things like this.

Furthermore, I don't find homosexual things such as a guy kissing a guy sickening. In this case, Vivian in dude form pecking Mario on the cheek. So, they do it, you can't stop it. Doesn't affect me much at all. It's normal. Kissing is a gesture of love, and love is a normal thing. It's probably even more normal in Japan, because people there are even more open there than here in the states.

I'd say more, but the current temperature in my room is about 48 degrees, and don't feel like continuing.

Master Mario · « **Reply #19 on:** January 23, 2005, 03:59:27 PM »

Vidgmchter (or someting) Well put, there! I like how you think! We here are just as weird as them when it comes to how other countries see us. I mean, other countries have their own limits and customs. That's OK! We still need to learn that.

TMK fan since three years ago!

smfan1085 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 23, 2005, 09:01:25 PM »

Bah! I might as well leave this topic. I can't get anywhere in talking about this when people just assume that being "gay" is OK.

And I hope that they aren't trying to make Mario more "mature" in the sense of putting immorality in the games. If that happens, I may lose my mind.

Vidgmchtr · « **Reply #21 on:** January 23, 2005, 10:31:26 PM »

Uh, dude, there's nothing wrong with people being gay. If the people choose to be gay, that's fine, they choose to. No one should just go up and tell them they're doing something bad and disgusting.

Okay, yes, it crosses a few religious boundaries, but remember, not everyone in the world is a Catholic. A lot of the Japanese people aren't Catholic at all. They're mainly Shintoists. It's not considered immoral at all in their religion to be gay.

So, if there are future Mario games that are a little edgy like this, just tell yourself, "It's normal in Japan".

Okay? So, please, never try and ask me why I am not so disgusted about something like this. I actually find this whole thing humorous. I have a weird mind, but I'm okay with that.

Edited by - Vidgmchtr on 1/23/2005 8:55:01 PM

Master Mario · « **Reply #22 on:** January 23, 2005, 11:16:48 PM »

Vivian is not........ ugh..... nvm. you left. But, seiously, consider some customs! Vivian most likely not want to live with him. It's different! Plus I've read that in Japan, Vivian IS a sister! If you read what they say in japanese. "The three Shadow" and then Vivian said "sisters". I'm not saying I'm a fruit. I'm saying sometimes other countries' customs are different from ours!

TMK fan since three years ago!

Hope(N Forever) · « **Reply #23 on:** January 24, 2005, 09:46:41 AM »

Woah!! I've never noticed this thread before - so that's where my new thread went to...

Anyways, does anyone here believe that this case is related to how Nintendo changed Birdo's gender way back when?

I am a pure Super Mario lover!!
...and in no point in the future will he ever be abandonded by me!
I will even drawn the best Super Mario comics ever to exist!!

smfan1085 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 24, 2005, 10:50:17 AM »

OK, so I'm back. I want to make a few things clear.

First, I'm not a close-minded idiot. I'm just a Christian (specifically, a Catholic) who believes in objective truth and opposes behavior that violates natural and moral law. Normally, I wouldn't get so worked up about this; it's because the innocence of the Mario theme, which I've known and loved since age 6 and about which I have many fond memories, is being threatened. This kind of stuff matters to me. I am sorry if I misrepresented my cause a bit on account of being angry and upset.

Also, I want to make it clear that I'd much rather make friends than enemies in this forum. I don't want to seem hostile, but I do want people to know where I stand.

Anyway, maybe I am making too much fuss. After all, they fixed it up in the U.S. version, which I go by, as I said. So I say we should end this discussion.

Vidgmchtr · « **Reply #25 on:** January 24, 2005, 11:07:57 AM »

Okay. I never really was arguing though, more like telling you why I wasn't disgusted with the fact that Vivian was a dude in the Japanese version and kissed Mario, and told you something like this isn't immoral at all in Japan, where the game (and pretty much all of the other Mario ones) come from, because people there aren't Catholic.

Edited by - Vidgmchtr on 1/24/2005 9:08:52 AM

WanWan · « **Reply #26 on:** January 26, 2005, 01:08:35 AM »

"If the people choose to be gay, that's fine, they choose to."

We don't. But thank you anyway.

I respect everyone's religious beliefs and it's okay to not agree with homosexuality, but I hope everyone in this topic will extend those who disagree with THEM the same respect.

From everything I've heard, even though there's more queer exposure in the media in Japan--games and anime and such--when it comes to actually living there, they are perhaps even more intolerant of gays than Americans. I knew a ******* who had lived with a family in Japan for 2-3 years and had seen gays treated horribly during her time there, and was terrified to let anyone know about her orientation. So despite yaoi and yuri and Shintoism, there's prejudice everywhere.

Oh, and about Vivian saying "sisters," notice that after he says that he oldest sister calls him an idiot and corrects him. I think the implication was that he WANTED Mario to think they really were all sisters when they're actually two sisters and a brother.

ETA: Did that word SERIOUSLY just get bleeped? Oh no everyone, better watch out what you type, TEH GAYE might be spreading!

Edited by - WanWan on 1/25/2005 11:12:29 PM

Master Mario · « **Reply #27 on:** January 26, 2005, 01:15:35 AM »

Mind bein' nice to the mailbag peoples? lol. They run the place!

TMK fan since three years ago!

Nameneko · « **Reply #28 on:** January 26, 2005, 05:02:36 PM »

WanWan: What does Shinotism have to do with the previous two??

Mr. Wiggles · « **Reply #29 on:** January 26, 2005, 08:33:46 PM »

Wanwan's gay! I never knew that. But I'm pretty sure gays choose to be gay. Also, I can't stand religous zealots who force their beliefs down people's throats!

_____________________________

Dang Jackie, I don''t want to kiss a short, pale and poor girl.
-Michael Kelso, That 70''s show_

Nameneko · « **Reply #30 on:** January 26, 2005, 10:31:02 PM »

"[...] not everyone in the world is a Catholic. A lot of the Japanese people aren't Catholic at all. They're mainly Shintoists."

Correction: Most Japanese people don't practice a religion at all. Shinto customs are commonly used in weddings, manners, etc, but the religion itself isn't actually practiced. The same is sometimes applied to Buddhism.

In conclusion, most Japanese people do not practice the Shinto religion.

"It's not considered immoral at all in their religion to be gay."

Chances are, homosexuality isn't even mentioned in the religion.

"So, if there are future Mario games that are a little edgy like this, just tell yourself, 'It's normal in Japan'."

Oh, is it?

"[...] something like this isn't immoral at all in Japan, where the game (and pretty much all of the other Mario ones) come from, because people there aren't Catholic."

A minority of people in Japan are Christian. And note that some people might find this immoral overseas too. Just as you see mixed opinions on this forum, there are probably mixed opinions on this over there too. Don't speak on behalf of everyone.

Vidgmchtr, I respect your opinion, I just feel that you need to look at the facts before relying on them.

Nameneko · « **Reply #31 on:** January 26, 2005, 10:34:00 PM »

Also, as a continuation of the last post (because I don't want to mess around with html anymore):

The subject of Vivian's gender seems to have turned into a semi-religious debate on homosexuality. If this continues, it might be best if this thread is closed.

Master Mario · « **Reply #32 on:** January 26, 2005, 10:34:23 PM »

I may sound a little sensitive,............ but you are kinda scaring me......... I hate heated debates........ They are scary.

TMK fan since three years ago!

Edited by - Master Mario on 1/26/2005 8:36:05 PM

WanWan · « **Reply #33 on:** January 26, 2005, 11:01:17 PM »

Oh, Shintoism doesn't have anything to do with yaoi or yuri, I wasn't trying to imply that it did. I mentioned it because V . . . erm, I forget how to spell the name (heh), but that person said that Shintoists don't believe that homosexuality is wrong. Whether or not that's true, and I don't know enough about the religion to say, I was pointing out that despite that (and other factors that would indicate more tolerance, such as yaoi and yuri) a lot of people over there still view homosexuality as a sick thing, and homosexuals meet with a lot of prejudice.

"But I'm pretty sure gays choose to be gay."

Why would anyone choose to be ostracized, made fun of, threatened, unable to enjoy the same legal rights as heterosexuals, and have their dating pool restricted to like 10% of the population?

Master Mario · « **Reply #34 on:** January 26, 2005, 11:04:17 PM »

I-I can't....... debate! Shintoists? Yura? I'm confused! You beat me!

TMK fan since three years ago!

Nameneko · « **Reply #35 on:** January 26, 2005, 11:15:27 PM »

I am NOT going to debate anymore on the sujects of homosexuality and misinterpretation of foreign cultures in this thread. It is getting very far from the original topic. I don't know how it started, nor do I really care how, but someone with the ability to close this thread should do so.