Author Topic: Canon, plot, style: What's your opinion? (Read 14255 times)

CrossEyed7 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 13, 2007, 10:36:48 PM »

Personally, I think Nintendo wanted a continuity, and we largely rejected it. I think the original plan for Luigi's Mansion was that the ending was not a random Boo operating a Bowser suit, but Bowser's spirit reanimating his own dead body, after having been killed in Paper Mario -- otherwise, we have to deal with a new character talking about "all the trouble you've given me in the past" in his debut appearance. I think this is what that whole "more mature Mario" debacle was about. But that's just my theory.

I'm not really sure whether I would prefer that Mario or the one we have now. A continuous story is very attractive to me, but I've also grown very attached to Bowser, especially over the last six years after Luigi's Mansion. However, I do like the compromised continuity that Nintendo seems to be bringing in lately: having Toad Town come back in Partners in Time, with Shooting Star Summit -- referred to by its original SMRPG name, Star Hill -- behind it, and now Toad Town appearing outside a very SM64-style castle in the Galaxy opening. It's not as big, but I'm very eager to see how far they take this over the next five years.

Chupperson Weird · « **Reply #16 on:** October 13, 2007, 10:44:48 PM »

Miyamoto does not want a continuity. So, yeah.
The Mario games contain recurring elements that are very loosely tied together with a thin string throughout the games. This is sufficient.

The Chef · « **Reply #17 on:** October 14, 2007, 08:17:17 AM »

In all honesty, I could care less what Miyamoto wants. Of everyone whoa actually puts their sweat into making today's Mario games, he cares the least and probably does the least for it. I like the idea of a continuity, and I really can't understand why people seem to hate it. All the development teams who make the Mario games like it, the localization teams who write the dialog like it, and even the official distributors in each country like it (such as Nintendo of Europe), so why can't the rest of us want a continuity? You act like it's illegal just because of what Miyamoto said, Chup. Miyamoto is not the Jesus of gaming. Even he makes mistakes. All the man does is just oversee the projects. He ain't the one designing, coding and coming up with the plotlines for each game. As far as I'm concerned, he barely even about Mario as much as us and the rest of the guys at Nintendo. His word should not be taken as law. I know I don't take it that way.

Chupperson Weird · « **Reply #18 on:** October 14, 2007, 10:51:59 AM »

Quote from: The Chef on October 14, 2007, 08:17:17 AM

In all honesty, I could care less what Miyamoto wants.

That means you do care.

Anyway, that is one heck of a lot of inference for one sentence. I was replying to CrossEyed7 saying he thought Nintendo wanted a continuity. I see no evidence to support this anywhere, and decided to mention that Miyamoto, you know, the guy who created Mario, doesn't feel like a continuity is necessary for Mario games.

The Chef · « **Reply #19 on:** October 14, 2007, 12:19:52 PM »

Well, I really didn't have anything against what you said specifically, Chup. You just reminded me of the many people who thinks Miyamoto decides everything that had to do with Mario and thus it's againt the laws of nature to even think about Mario having a canon. It's been bugging me for a while.

Toad · « **Reply #20 on:** October 15, 2007, 01:18:14 PM »

Quote from: Reading on October 12, 2007, 05:10:08 PM

Should the games have a stronger canon?

Yes, the games should have a stronger canon, so as to shoot Mario to the dark side of the moon! (oh wait.. PM2 already did..)

I kind of like having the canon the way it is now: the RPG's have recurring locations/elements (Star Hill, Shooting Star Summit), RPG areas are appearing outside of the RPG games (DryDry Desert in MKDD, ToadTown in SMG) and there are references to past adventures in all of the games (Luigi's Mansion tracks in MK, Luigi's diary in PM1, Luigi's adventure in PM2, the whale calling Mario a doctor in PM1..)

I think the canon the way it is now is fine, as it leaves room for things that fans want to make up.

As for having a darker storyline, PM2 was a step in the right direction, and SMG seems to continue along those lines. I am very much looking forward to seeing where the games go.

Reading · « **Reply #21 on:** October 15, 2007, 04:24:50 PM »

Quote from: CrossEyed7 on October 13, 2007, 10:36:48 PM

I think the original plan for Luigi's Mansion was that the ending was not a random Boo operating a Bowser suit, but Bowser's spirit reanimating his own dead body, after having been killed in Paper Mario -- otherwise, we have to deal with a new character talking about "all the trouble you've given me in the past" in his debut appearance.

Well, King Boo appeared in Super Mario Sunshine and other games, so I don't think he's Bowser's spirit. He might have been referring to how Mario and Luigi have defeated his Boos in earlier games by "trouble you've given me in the past".

BP · « **Reply #22 on:** October 15, 2007, 06:49:07 PM »

It was a suit. Bowser does not die.
What King Boo said didn't make a lot of sense... Why would he want revenge on the Mario Bros. if Boos are rarely even killable (and they claim in SM64 that GHOSTS... CAN'T... DIE!). Nonetheless, the red-eyed blue-tongued villain was awesome, until he was turned into a drunk slobbery thing in Sunshine and then a marshmallow in Mario Kart...

Suffix · « **Reply #23 on:** October 15, 2007, 09:41:00 PM »

Those are his relatives!! Please!

* Suffix cries

CrossEyed7 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 15, 2007, 10:07:50 PM »

Obviously, King Boo is no longer intended to be Bowser; my theory is just that that was the original intention, but they changed it when it didn't get as good a reaction as they'd hoped for.

As for Miyamoto's wishes, he works with gameplay, not plot. The Zelda games, for instance, were clearly created with complex and, often, continuous, interweaved plots, yet Miyamoto knows less about how they fit together than the average gamer, because he only focuses on making the games fun, not on making them non-paradoxical.

Chupperson Weird · « **Reply #25 on:** October 16, 2007, 09:49:44 AM »

Eiji Aonuma is the Zelda guy these days. Miyamoto barely works on games at all. And you're incorrect, because Miyamoto's idea, if you remember, was to not have Mario tied down in a complex backstory.

Sqrt2 · « **Reply #26 on:** October 17, 2007, 02:32:00 AM »

Apart from the Mario RPG's, I don't get concerned about plots. The platformers don't really need a plot to be honest;- rescuing the princess from bowser is all they really need. As for canon, I assume that bowser kidnaps the princess a short while after she's been rescued, thereby accounting for how mario looks the same, from one game to the next.

BP · « **Reply #27 on:** October 17, 2007, 08:22:09 PM »

Even so, a repulsive script can ruin the simple plot.

The Great Gonzales · « **Reply #28 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:38:00 PM »

To those who say the plots aren't deep in the Mario games, and that there's no canon: You're so wrong! You just have to dig a little deeper, and settle for conjecture. For example, here is what I think the story behind King Boo is (I did not create this idea; I simply heard it, and it makes sense to me):
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Remember Big Boo from SM64? He was the leader of the Boos, so I think that he just changed his title because "King" makes him sound more powerful. After SM64 comes Super Mario Sunshine. (King Boo is a member of the Koopa Troop; that's important to note.) After King Boo's second loss to Mario, Bowser, infuriated by King Boo's inability to beat Mario, kicks him out of the Koopa Troop. Afterwards, a bitter King Boo kidnaps Mario, partially for revenge, and partially because he believes that if he captures Mario, Bowser would let him back into the Troop. And, to sweeten the deal, he lured Luigi there to capture the brothers in one fell swoop.

So why, then, did King Boo hide in a Bowser suit? I believe that Boo wanted to send a message to Bowser- that he could be a better Bowser than Bowser. That is, that he can stop Mario once and for all; the Bowser suit was meant to get into Bowser's head. As we all know, of course, King Boo failed, and Bowser laughed him off. Since then, Bowser has disasocciated himself with the Boos.
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Now, I don't think that the Mario games oughta be tremendously harder, or have darker storylines. Remember, Mario is marketed mainly for younger children, so Nintendo isn't going to make a dark, scary story in a game. Partners in Time was about the darkest game, but frequent comic relief kept it from going over the line. You want a darker storyline, play just about any other RPG out there. But let's keep Mario as he is. There's a reason Nintendo is the top-selling video game franchise, you know.

Suffix · « **Reply #29 on:** October 23, 2007, 05:12:58 PM »

Quote from: The Great Gonzales on October 23, 2007, 04:38:00 PM

...that there's no canon: You're so wrong! You just have to dig a little deeper, and settle for conjecture.

So, in other words, there is no canon unless you make it up...? I don't mean to completely debunk "what you heard" right off the bat, but you kind of contradicted yourself, there.

I'm a fan of the Boos, but the differences in style are just too much for me to believe that a single "King of the Boos" keeps coming back.

SM64: Just really big
SMS: Big slobbery embarrassment
LM: Freaky, red-eyed, blue tongued menace