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What are your views on abortion?

Pro-life
Pro-choice
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Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 67714 times)

MEGAߥTE

  • In flames
« Reply #150 on: July 04, 2008, 01:11:34 AM »
five kingdoms of organisms
LOL outdated public school biology

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #151 on: July 04, 2008, 03:17:09 AM »
I actually hate all forms of biology.
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

MEGAߥTE

  • In flames
« Reply #152 on: July 04, 2008, 04:09:49 PM »
Including birds and persons?

ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #153 on: July 04, 2008, 07:39:36 PM »
Next time King Phillip tries to come over for good soup, I open fire.
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

Forest Guy

  • Anything else?
« Reply #154 on: July 05, 2008, 12:30:33 AM »
Even if it is better to kill a baby in that situation, does that justify killing one for convenience? In an abortion, it's not a choice between killing the baby or killing the mother, it's a choice between killing the baby or having the mother go through a few months of discomfort as a result of her irresponsibility

Whoa whoa whoa! Hold the phone! You seem to have forgotten! I'm not justifying abortion. I'm simply stating my reasoning as to why I'm 'anti-choice' and not 'pro-life.' We agree on the main issue, just for different reasons. Buttttt if it'll make things more interesting, we can go through this some more.

I'm not saying that cows are equivalent to humans beings. I'm saying fetuses are equivalent to cows in that they are both alive and can be killed, but neither are human beings. Come on now, you keep saying that you have scientific proof that fetuses are humans. Where is it? Start citing or I ain't biting.
(rhyming argument for the win)
= = = = = = =
Agender, curry fan, Top 10 lister, indie dev, gym hitter, musician, et al.

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #155 on: July 05, 2008, 02:25:50 AM »
Come on now, you keep saying that you have scientific proof that fetuses are humans. Where is it? Start citing or I ain't biting.
(rhyming argument for the win)
Well, what other species would they be? A bit anticlimactic, I know, but science/common sense says they're humans -- their parents are humans and when they grow up, they would be called humans; the question is whether they're human beings (persons), and to answer that requires philosophy and logic, which, while not subjective (that is, they either are persons or they aren't; my opinion doesn't change that fact either way), are not entirely certain, and if my arguments don't persuade you, I can't do anything more in that regard, and this was a long sentence. But they are members of the homo sapiens species.

(Warning: Clearly religious stuff follows.)
To get much deeper into the philosophical side, beyond the S.L.E.D.C. comparisons, I'd have to get into my religious reasons for being pro-life. In case you're interested, it's very similar to C.S. Lewis's model of morality in The Problem of Pain. Our bodies are ships that have been rented out to us by God, and we (our souls) are the sailors on the ships, making a trip to a distant land (eternity). Morality consists of three aspects:

- We must steer our ships in the proper direction if we want to get to the right destination.
- We must avoid crashing into other people's ships.
- We do not own our own ships, and therefore must not damage them.

However, it's impossible for us to perfectly meet all those standards, and the currency in our homeland is so worthless compared to the currency in the land of the Shiplender that we couldn't possibly afford to pay for even the smallest repair. And that's why we need Jesus. (Okay, I couldn't carry the analogy any further.) We have made offenses against an infinite God, and therefore our punishment must be infinite (If you lie to a 2-year-old, they can't do anything about it; if you lie to your wife, you sleep on the couch; if you lie to your boss, you lose your job; if you lie to the government, you go to jail: the same crime, but against increasingly important authorities). Since we're finite, we couldn't even begin to pay for our offenses after an eternity of punishment. That's why God came to earth to provide an infinite sacrifice to pay for us (He couldn't just overlook our sins, because He's a good judge). If we turn from our sins, bow to Him as Lord, and receive His payment, we will be forgiven. So as Christians, we are no longer in danger of punishment for our sins, but we avoid them because we hate them, due to the new nature we've been given, and because we are eternally grateful to God for saving us from them and don't want to grieve Him by going back to them.

Anyway, I guess the abortion-relevant part is back in the C.S. Lewis segment: our bodies belong to God.
(End of religious talk)

That was a bit of a tangent, wasn't it? Once I get started on this, I can't help but go through the whole thing. But anyway, my main point in this topic is that abortion should be illegal in the United States: fetuses are humans, and the Declaration says that from the moment they begin to exist (all men are created equal, not born equal), humans have the right to exist (and common sense says that when one person's right to life interferes with someone else's right to pursue happiness, the right to life supercedes).
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

Koopaslaya

  • Kansas
« Reply #156 on: July 05, 2008, 09:04:48 AM »
(Warning: Clearly religious stuff follows.)
To get much deeper into the philosophical side, beyond the S.L.E.D.C. comparisons, I'd have to get into my religious reasons for being pro-life. In case you're interested, it's very similar to C.S. Lewis's model of morality in The Problem of Pain. Our bodies are ships that have been rented out to us by God, and we (our souls) are the sailors on the ships, making a trip to a distant land (eternity). Morality consists of three aspects:

- We must steer our ships in the proper direction if we want to get to the right destination.
- We must avoid crashing into other people's ships.
- We do not own our own ships, and therefore must not damage them.

However, it's impossible for us to perfectly meet all those standards, and the currency in our homeland is so worthless compared to the currency in the land of the Shiplender that we couldn't possibly afford to pay for even the smallest repair. And that's why we need Jesus. (Okay, I couldn't carry the analogy any further.) We have made offenses against an infinite God, and therefore our punishment must be infinite (If you lie to a 2-year-old, they can't do anything about it; if you lie to your wife, you sleep on the couch; if you lie to your boss, you lose your job; if you lie to the government, you go to jail: the same crime, but against increasingly important authorities). Since we're finite, we couldn't even begin to pay for our offenses after an eternity of punishment. That's why God came to earth to provide an infinite sacrifice to pay for us (He couldn't just overlook our sins, because He's a good judge). If we turn from our sins, bow to Him as Lord, and receive His payment, we will be forgiven. So as Christians, we are no longer in danger of punishment for our sins, but we avoid them because we hate them, due to the new nature we've been given, and because we are eternally grateful to God for saving us from them and don't want to grieve Him by going back to them.

Anyway, I guess the abortion-relevant part is back in the C.S. Lewis segment: our bodies belong to God.
(End of religious talk)

C.S. Lewis is the best (after G.K. Chesterton, of course). Thank you for that.
Εὐθύνατε τὴν ὁδὸν Κυρίου

« Reply #157 on: July 05, 2008, 02:25:38 PM »
Killing a human being is murder. An unborn baby is a human being. Thus, abortion is murder. And yes, euthanizing people is also murder.
murder ⊂ homicide

While there is no argument that killing another person would be homicide, a murder is defined as being unlawful, usually premeditated and with malice.  So long as abortion is legal, it isn't murder.  If euthanasia is legal (which as far as I know, it isn't?), it isn't murder.  State-administered execution?  Not murder.

Well, what other species would they be?
PROTECT MY CELLS.

But anyway, my main point in this topic is that abortion should be illegal in the United States: fetuses are humans, and the Declaration says that from the moment they begin to exist (all men are created equal, not born equal), humans have the right to exist (and common sense says that when one person's right to life interferes with someone else's right to pursue happiness, the right to life supercedes).
Not that the Declaration of Independence has anything to do with U.S. law, just some guy writing off England, and it would be a bit of a bother to resurrect Jefferson just to ask him if he thinks that life begins at conception, as though his opinion were significant anyway.

Look at it this way: if you were forced to kill one person out of a group of three, who would you kill? A newborn baby, a 10 year old boy who's just starting to understand the world around him, or a 30 year old mother supporting her two kids?
Is this one of those riddles where the two kids the mother is supporting are a newborn baby and a 10 year old boy who's just starting to understand the world around him?

ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #158 on: July 05, 2008, 04:16:43 PM »
I think that everyone who's "pro-life" needs to get their birth certificate changed to when they were conceived. Otherwise, it comes off as kind of hypocritical (actually, I've been considering that as an alibi if I ever get in trouble for doing something I'm not supposed to do until I'm eighteen. Of course, it's only valid three months after I turn seventeen...).
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

« Reply #159 on: July 05, 2008, 04:40:51 PM »
Comes off as hypocritical to not say that they were born before they were born?

« Reply #160 on: July 05, 2008, 04:41:49 PM »
I'm not sure I understand your statement ShadowBrain.
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #161 on: July 05, 2008, 05:01:47 PM »
Well, if we're all going to imply that life begins when you're a minute fetus, then shouldn't those nine months count?
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

« Reply #162 on: July 05, 2008, 05:14:29 PM »
But do you know what birth is?  And if you wanted to count those nine months, you should have some documentation of your conception...signed by the involved parties...and a witness... :)

Glorb

  • Banned
« Reply #163 on: July 05, 2008, 05:22:08 PM »
I'll volunteer to bear witness for legal purposes.
every

Forest Guy

  • Anything else?
« Reply #164 on: July 06, 2008, 12:57:48 AM »
But for the umpteenth time, Koopaslaya, I don't know why you're trying to convince me that abortion should be illegal. I already said I agree with you on it being wrong. And yes, I'm a level 85 Christian, so don't worry about bringing religious philosophy in here.

Seriously though, abortion is wayyy too diverse an issue to leave one way or the other. Plain and simple, it should be handled and voted on by state government. That way all the Christian fundamentalist conservatives in Texas have no abortion, and the burnt out ex-hippies turned college professors in Massachusetts can have abortion. It just works out better like that. It's politics.

And on an unrelated note, I haven't seen Eclipsed Moon in a while.
= = = = = = =
Agender, curry fan, Top 10 lister, indie dev, gym hitter, musician, et al.

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