Just how much does America depend on gas?

[MaxVance]

Along with several other areas in the South, Middle Tennessee has been in an uproar this past week or so. Why? Many oil refineries have slowed down their gasoline production after Hurricane Ike struck. Most of the gas stations around here are completly empty, and the few that have fuel to sell are completly rushed by panicked commuters. Though much of this can be attributed to the South's tendency to panic (try going to a grocery store down here when snow is forecasted), it's still scary to see how we react.

So I propose this: What if America were invaded, and the attacking country struck our oil refineries? If we go this crazy when the refineries just reduce production, imagine what would become of us if they were destroyed. Combine fear of invasion with a fuel shortage and America would be swiftly brought to its knees.

[Mr. Wiggles]

If our remaining domestic oil refineries were seized/destroyed, America will sink.

Our economy is completely dependent on petroleum oil. Alternative energies (despite how envoirenmentally safe they claim they are) are essentially spun off from oil. Our banking system depends on the availability of this stuff. Oil is practically the blood of America.

It wouldn't surprise me if resource wars break out in the next 30 years. However, we do have the strongest military in the world so I doubt just any country can land here and invade us. That's why we have been keeping our eyes on North Korea for some time now, since they're quickly catching up to us in terms of economic influence and power. There's also Russia and Venezuela, whose leaders have both made it clear that they don't like us, at all.

[PaperLuigi]

Yes, our dependence on oil is quite frightening. No one in the current office seems all that interested in moving us over to alternate sources of fuel either.

[Glorb]

It makes me laugh with great sadness when candidates brag about how pwnsome they are since they plan to drill more than the other guy. "Screw alternate fuel, we'll think about that once all the oil's gone."

[CrossEyed7]

We need nuclear power.

[The Chef]

We need solar power.

[BP]

To answer the question, far too much. Solar power should be far more popular than it is.

[TEM]

There's only one answer.

But seriously, we need to figure out how to contain the energy created by fusion.

[Glorb]

The world's already powered that way, you just don't know it.

[CrossEyed7]

Nuclear power plants with solar panels on top. And tax breaks for homeowners who put solar panels on their roof (and even the possibility of selling their power to the city if they produce more power than they consume). And windmills in lots of places. And hydroelectric dams (although they're not as brokenly powerful in real life as they are in Sim City 2000, sadly). But still mainly nuclear power. Because we can't let France have cleaner air than us.

[PaperLuigi]

All of those are great alternative sources of fuel. Oil sucks and is contributing to both the environmental (globally) and economic crisis (in America).

[Chupperson Weird]

Nuclear plants would be okay if they weren't falling apart, didn't create nuclear waste, and didn't leak radiation (yes, they do).

Also, the entire Champagne region of France has contaminated ground water thanks to their nuclear plants.

In conclusion, we need more windmills and solar panels. Some places already have set up selling power to the city with your own solar panels, also.

[CrossEyed7]

Nuclear plants in America are falling apart mostly because we haven't been allowed to build new ones in so long. In France, leaking is much more the exception than the rule. And even so, there's more than enough unoccupied, government-owned land in the U.S. to safely put them if we're worried about that (For example, like 90% of the land in Nevada. Other states have more reasonable amounts, but still a pretty good percentage.). Windmills and solar panels are good, and should be integrated throughout the country, but we can't expect them to carry the brunt of the power grid, especially in places that never really get much wind or sun.

[Chupperson Weird]

Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas get enough wind for a good chunk of all our energy. The problem, I suppose, is distributing it to the rest of the nation, and the fact that big businesses like the NRC don't want you to know that it's feasible in the first place.
You didn't address the issue of nuclear waste (or the contaminated ground water), either. Blowing pieces out of Yucca Mountain to put waste there is not a good idea. Having trucks transport it on the highway is just plain dangerous. Some companies want to import even more waste from Italy, I guess because Italy has nowhere to put it.
There are reports of correlation between birth defects and proximity to nuclear plants. Of course, this can't imply causation, but I don't see anything else that would do that. What I'm getting at here is that I don't believe shielding is adequate. On top of this, I know of plants that are run in such a manner that attempts in reporting problems with the plant results in the firing of the person who reported it. They might work in a perfectly controlled situation, but the power companies are too greedy for that to happen.

[Turtlekid1]

What I'm getting at here is that I don't believe shielding is adequate.

Scientists being the smart people they are, if they wanted to, they could easily create new methods of shielding.  Instead, they waste their time trying to solve a non-existent "climate crisis".

[Chupperson Weird]

Uh, not really. Do you understand radiation?

[Kojinka]

Too much.  We need to move to electric cars!

[Turtlekid1]

Too much.  We need to move to electric hydrogen-powered cars!

[TEM]

Electric cars kill me; where do people think the electricity is coming from?

[MaxVance]

Electricity usually comes from coal or natural gas plants. With solar and wind power rising, however, electric cars hold promise for the future.

(At least coal and natural gas are far more easily obtained here than oil is.)

[Trainman]

To answer the question, far too much. Solar power should be far more popular than it is.

Solar power is extremely expensive.


I think half the people are greenies. Ask anyone what contributes to 103% of our "carbon footprint" and people automatically blame the car so we get all these stupid hybrids.

See, I think hybrid cars are BULLCRAP. Everyone is trippin' on the Toyota Prius, Honda Civic Hybrid, the Smart car, etc. Car & Driver did a test to see if the claims from manufacturers and people who say "I LOVE MY GREEN CAR" are telling the truth. Well, the car that was used to compare was a 2005 VW Jetta diesel.... whaddya know, the Jetta got at least 7-10 more MPG than the Prius, a LOT more than the Smart car, and a TON more than the Ford Focus SEL. Tests were conducted in the city, driving 55 MPH, and driving 75 MPH, and the average of all three. Even the new BMW M3 (E92) was considered more efficient than the Prius almost half the time, according to Top Gear under normal driving conditions (M3-19MPG avg.; Prius-17MPG avg... please note M3 = 4.0L V8, Prius = 1.5L 4 cylinder)

Along with that you have to put premium in hybrids so they wont detonate (knock) so you're having to spend that little extra for that little extra fuel efficiency, so it's almost as if you break even, unless you average like 5 miles a day as someone one would try and say as an excuse. Also remember, that all the methanol/ethanol/bio-diesel still costs more than regular gas and won't be coming down any time soon. They use corn for this so you have to leave less space for corn and anything else that grows for humans and animals for the corn used for the fuels, so in turn, that ramps up the price of corn for us.... so I imagine they figure "OH HEY YA KNOW... CORN IS UP LETS RAISE EVERYTHING!!!!" Keep in mind, that the machines that process the corn to make bio-diesel, for example, run off diesel typically... let's not forget the diesel 18 wheelers, etc. that have to haul it to wherever it needs to go, so for every gallon of diesel used to make fuel, it's like a gallon and a half of methanol/whatever has been pretty much been canceled out.


The only alternate power source I can really side with is hydrogen (car-wise). Electric will go nowhere since you have to charge the car, you have to have gasoline anyway so the fuel cell has something to do, they are extremely underpowered (110HP Prius = barely getting up hills and wasting juice to do it), have many, many batteries that are relatively inefficient, and they would be EXTREMELY dangerous if you did anything BUT drive them since there are so many electric systems and batteries around. If you shorted one of the batteries out being near several other batteries, then wow may God have mercy on you.

I don't mind wind power. I like the look of the windmills, but when piled up irregularly on hill/mountain sides, then they usually look like an eyesore... keep in mind the bright red, blinking LEDs on top of all of them for aircraft so seeing all those would probably be annoying for citizens and be the premise for another "mystery UFO lights" video, seeings as we have many crazy conspiracy believers. Oh yeah and if something breaks on one of those things, this and this could happen. (I like the first one.)

[Markio]

Of course alternative fuels are expensive.  So is gas, but at least with wind and solar power we wouldn't need to rely so heavily on foreign countries for fuel.  Even if we never gain back the money we lost investing in alternative fuel, the Earth won't die.

According to Bill McKibben, author and environmentalist, the amount of CO2 we produce is 387 parts per million, and rising 2 parts every year.  The officially determined limit on how much CO2 can be produced without detrimental and irreversible effects on the Earth's livelihood is 350 ppm.  Obviously, we have some work to do.  Visit www.350.org for more information.  And even if people don't believe in global warming, what's wrong with helping the environment?

[Chupperson Weird]

Trainman is correct about ethanol being ridiculous. Added to what he said, the runoff from the corn fertilizer is killing even more of the Gulf of Mexico.
As for solar power being expensive, well, I'd prefer saving the planet over saving money. Solar panels are getting more efficient all the time, and it's really cool that some places let you sell your extra solar power to the power company.
Electric cars are getting more efficient as well, so I see no reason why they should stop trying to develop them further. The fact that normal cars have more power is completely irrelevant to the goal of developing non-polluting vehicles. Fossil fuels are no longer viable.
One of my friends' dads has a car that runs on natural gas, which is pretty awesome since the only byproduct is water, except that natural gas really isn't renewable so we're going to run out of fuel for that car eventually.

[Trainman]

Yeah, that's why I didn't mention cars that run on natural gas because, as you said, that'll disappear quickly.


"The fact that normal cars have more power is completely irrelevant to the goal of developing non-polluting vehicles."

The point I was trying to make there is that having 110 HP isn't going to get you anywhere (remember that a car's horsepower rating is measured in bhp [break horsepower] meaning how much it power it makes at the flywheel. There is a 15-17% loss of power through the transmission, driveshaft, etc. so the prius would probably put about 85 horsepower to its wheels). If you car is very underpowered it's gonna be squeezing a ton of it's potential power at keeping it rolling down the road, up hills, into the wind, etc., so your car would be less efficient and be polluting more, rather. The other half is that I think it's funny that a car with a ton more power, that is a bit heavier, has a bigger motor, and has a slightly larger tank than the prius gets better gas mileage than it in certain conditions. If it's like Toyota and people advertise it, then it should perform like it. Speaking of which, I think Toyota (among others) is almost trying to rip people off. The fact that the car is extremely high to buy in the first place, has a very small gas tank, and the fact you have to put premium fuel in it seems like hidden costs that just balance out the cost of an efficient gas or diesel car that isn't hyped up in the advertisement, obviously. They had to spend a ton of money to develop the vehicles... well, they're gonna get it back out of you somehow.

Anyone remember the '08-'09 Chevy Tahoe and Silverado that ran on propane? Good for ONE more mile to the gallon... and the cost? $3,300 added to the MSRP.

I do agree with you Chupperson, on the solar part. Solar could definitely be going places. Hell, why don't they strap solar panels all around the wind turbines???????? ....although.... that might blind you a little.

[Forest Guy]

The real problem is that the government absolutely refuses to just set out and use an alternative power source. All our trouble could be solved if we congress would just pass legislation on some bill that sets a timetable for switching to a new energy source. Like you said, there's dozens of different methods.
The problem is no one will just step up and have the balls to give all these interest groups the finger and say "all homes will from this day forth be powered by solar. sucks for you, oil companies. cry more." It's a shame that no politicians, both democrats or republicans, can just stand up and do their job, doing what's right for the American people. Instead they're too intimidated and infatuated with exxon/mobile to turn their heads around and focus on anything besides the almighty dollar.

[Chupperson Weird]

Oh, I agree that hybrid cars are sort of useless at the present time, but I think they should keep working until they develop workable, efficient non-polluting cars. Normal cars are simply not good.

Also, last I heard, car companies weren't making money off gasoline sales.

[Forest Guy]

Point and case, I live on Long Island and the past few years, they were kicking around this project in which they would set up windmill generators offshore in the ocean. After years of going through it LIPA (Long Island Power Association) decided it was too expensive and that they didn't want to spend the money on it. Like I said, if government would regulate something like this and require them to set it up, then we'd be all set. I wouldn't mind the extra taxes. It's a win in the long run.


Oh while we're on the subject, nuclear power. Yea or Nay?

[Chupperson Weird]

That's a big negative. Nowhere near as safe as the NRC would like you to believe, and there are much less risky ways of getting just as much energy with no deadly side effects.

Also, the expression is "point in case".

[Trainman]

What I was meaning, Chupperson, is that they're just wanting you to pay the same amount as a normal car via paying for gas constantly for it... not that they're gonna make money off you from it... so when they say "Buy this SUPER ULTRA MEGA efficient car that'll save you gas money" in the long run, you'd be paying... well, the same as a normal car!!!

Wow I'm having deja vu about 100 things right now...... ugh... weird.

[Forest Guy]

I've seen it as point in case, and I've seen it as point and case. I transpose the two.

And yes, I agree there are better ways to get energy than nuclear, though I feel for the time being, nuclear wouldn't be a bad temporary solution until we perfect stuff like fusion.

[ShadowBrain]

Jesus, people... we've got to have some sort of energy. Might as well use the kind that works the best, doesn't cost a lot, and results in the deaths and poverty of a minimum amount of third-world inhabitants.

[CrossEyed7]

But isn't fusion also nuclear? As in, what we have now is nuclear fission, and we're trying to get to nuclear fusion? That's what I remember from SimCity, at least.

[Chupperson Weird]

Nuclear fusion doesn't produce deadly waste, just energy.

[Luigison]

I can't believe I've missed this thread for so long.  I have a lot to say on the topic, but since it's election day I'm very busy so I'll just make a brief statement about my car.  I have a Honda Civic Hybrid that regularly gets 40+ MPG on regular gas.  I've never used supreme or even the middle grade and my car has never knocked and it has over 130,000 miles on it.  I tested it against a standard Civic and beat it off the line and on distance while using less gas.  Awesome!  Edit:  It's also awesome that it cost me less per month for the note and gas than the gas alone was costing my on my truck. 

[Trainman]

The reason manufactures recommend putting premium in it is to provide the best results and to keep your car from getting carbon build-up on the intake valves which will eventually start suffocating the engine and eventually clog it up to where it stutters.. Since the lower grade is in it, it is less resilient to knocking (not that it will automatically) and it might happen in certain conditions. The car may have over 130,000 miles on it, but you apparently drive it gently.... not trying to BS you... if that problem ever does come up, just go to the O'Reilley's (not autozone... too expensive for cheap stuff) and buy a bottle of Stabil (or whathaveyou) valve cleaner to put in your gas tank to get rid of any build-up and it'll run like new.


You already have 130,000 miles on your Civic??? Unless it's an '03 or '04, that's a lot!!!!

[Luigison]

It is an '03 and I do not drive it gently.  I've found that I get better gas millage if I accelerate rapidly from stops.  That's the opposite for gas only cars, but makes sense with hybrids because accelerating rapidly kicks in more of the electric motors than the gas engine.  Also, electric motors have maximum torque from the start.  On the other end, I tend to drive to fast.  If I slowed down my top speed I'd get better gas mileage.  I've tested this and got around 48 MPG, but the saving wasn't worth the hassle of driving slow to me.  I'd rather stick to my typical highway speeds and get 40-42 MPG. 

I tried on of those valve cleaners in another car and ended up having to change an oxygen sensor. 

[Trainman]

True.

Sensor must've been getting old. Did you use pour-in-the-tank valve/injector cleaner or-spray-in-the-throttle-body valve cleaner?

And do you know if your car has direct fuel injection [or called multi-port injection, sequential injection, etc.] (injector squirts fuel directly into the cylinder and does not interact with the intake valve) or normal fuel injection (air and fuel mixes before it reaches the cylinder)

Too technical...?

[FlamingBlueMario]

I think we should all ride bikes. Plain and simple.

[Turtlekid1]

Excellent!  Solve obesity and oil dependency in one swift stroke ;)

[ShadowBrain]

I'll tell you one thing I may or may not have told you already: When I move out, it's public transportation and a two-wheeler for me. Then again, a full stomach likes to preach about fasting...

[nensondubois]

Public transit wouldn't exist if we all rode bikes.

[CrossEyed7]

Even if I could ride a bike, I wouldn't like having no public transportation. It's not just a mode of conveyance, it's a social experience. People-watching is fun.

[Chupperson Weird]

My only qualm with bikes is how little you can carry with you.

[ShadowBrain]

Well, going to a lesser form of transportation would have to go hand-in-hand with downsizing how much we "need" to carry around with us (and I think that, though bikes should be the norm, people should have a backup car, just in case).

[Trainman]

Great, I say "valve cleaner" in one of my posts and I start seeing a barrage of BG 44K VALVE CLEANER ads. RESTORES MILEAGE, BOOSTS PERFORMANCE.