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Author Topic: Your F Score?  (Read 44589 times)

« Reply #75 on: April 03, 2011, 01:11:30 AM »
So the government should provide no health care, the government should provide no schools, but the government should arrest us if we stick our penis in a butt.

You have the most accurate CT of anyone on this board.

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #76 on: April 03, 2011, 06:45:36 AM »
God never said "the government should provide health care and schools."  He did say not to lay with a man as one lays with a woman.  And I can't imagine how me, my CT, and/or its accuracy or lack thereof are relevant.  I don't make the rules; it won't do you any good to attack me.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 06:49:21 AM by Turtlekid1 »
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

Black Mage

  • HP 1018 MP 685
« Reply #77 on: April 03, 2011, 09:57:02 AM »
Did God ever say it's the government's job to enforce 'His laws'? God, as I understand Him, is a pretty big champion of Free Will. Isn't up to each of us, individually, to choose to live by his commandments? Why is it okay for another entity to tell me I don't have this choice when according to God I do?

Insane Steve

  • Professional Cynic
« Reply #78 on: April 03, 2011, 11:25:10 AM »
I'm not sure, but I think God said something about not killing somewhere in the Bible, somewhere. I can't remember the verse, but it was with a few other base laws that God held especially dear. I think there were 10 in total.

That includes murderers and people you disagree with, by the way.

Seriously, your morals contradict themselves so often it's like I'm wasting my breath here.
~I.S.~

« Reply #79 on: April 03, 2011, 01:50:17 PM »
Turtlekid, your god probably doesn't exist, so it's pointless to appeal to it.

You'd probably call someone crazy if they appealed to Allah or Shiva, right?
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #80 on: April 03, 2011, 01:54:13 PM »
Did God ever say it's the government's job to enforce 'His laws'?
Um, yeah.  That's why he laid out specific, extremely verbose instructions detailing what the government should do if the law was flouted, depending on how and why it was broken.

God, as I understand Him, is a pretty big champion of Free Will. Isn't up to each of us, individually, to choose to live by his commandments? Why is it okay for another entity to tell me I don't have this choice when according to God I do?
Don't kid yourself.  The only choice God ever gave anyone is between obedience (life) and disobedience (death) and made it very clear that disobedience would gain nothing but death.  Now apparently I'm clueless but I'm pretty sure the correct choice is "life."

I'm not sure, but I think God said something about not killing somewhere in the Bible, somewhere. I can't remember the verse, but it was with a few other base laws that God held especially dear. I think there were 10 in total.

That includes murderers and people you disagree with, by the way.

Seriously, your morals contradict themselves so often it's like I'm wasting my breath here.
Killing is not the same as murder.

Turtlekid, your god probably doesn't exist, so it's pointless to appeal to it.

You'd probably call someone crazy if they appealed to Allah or Shiva, right?
Yes, because they don't exist, whereas Yahweh does.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

« Reply #81 on: April 03, 2011, 01:57:59 PM »
Yes, because they don't exist, whereas Yahweh does.

You'd be arguing on behalf of Allah if you were born in the Middle East, and you'd be convinced that Yahweh was not the true god.

Don't kid yourself.  The only choice God ever gave anyone is between obedience (life) and disobedience (death) and made it very clear that disobedience would gain nothing but death.  Now apparently I'm clueless but I'm pretty sure the correct choice is "life."

If people want to make the "wrong choice," let them.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 02:02:11 PM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #82 on: April 03, 2011, 02:01:28 PM »
Not necessarily.

And it's not really relevant one way or another, because my arguing on Allah's behalf wouldn't make him any more real.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

« Reply #83 on: April 03, 2011, 02:02:58 PM »
my arguing on Allah's behalf wouldn't make him any more real.

It's the same thing for your god. >:(
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #84 on: April 03, 2011, 02:03:52 PM »
No, it's not, because my God exists regardless of whether I argue the fact or not.

Although it's true that He can't be any more real because He's as real as it gets already.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

« Reply #85 on: April 03, 2011, 02:05:34 PM »
And how can you be absolutely sure of that?
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #86 on: April 03, 2011, 02:08:48 PM »
By reading the Bible and seeing the world around me.

Even if God's existence can't ever be scientifically proven, it's still the most reasonable explanation for everything.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #87 on: April 03, 2011, 02:29:13 PM »
A change of pace:

Um, yeah.  That's why he laid out specific, extremely verbose instructions detailing what the government should do if the law was flouted, depending on how and why it was broken.
The old covenant, which included the setup for the government and sacrifice system of Israel, was intended to distinguish the Israelites as set apart, the one chosen people of God. Under the new covenant, that no longer applies.

Quote from: Hebrews 8
Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, One who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tabernacle that the Lord set up, not man. For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tabernacle tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain." But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant He mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

For He finds fault with them when He says:
Quote from: Jeremiah 31:31-34
Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
   when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
   and with the house of Judah,
Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
   on the day when I took them by the hand out of the house of Egypt.
For they did not continue in My covenant,
   and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
   after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
   and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
   and they shall be my people.
And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
   and each one his brother, saying, "Know the Lord,"
for they shall all know Me,
   from the least of them to the greatest.
For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
   and I will remember their sins no more.

In speaking of a new covenant, He makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The old covenant where the law was external is over. In the new covenant, God's moral law is written on the hearts of His people. That means morality is no longer enforced by the government.
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #88 on: April 03, 2011, 02:38:51 PM »
But the imperfection in the first covenant was that it required constant animal sacrifice, while the new covenant did away with that in Jesus, who was sacrificed once for all.  And I'm pretty sure the early church was still pretty immoral even under the new covenant.  You're always going to have to deal with human nature.

And if morality is not enforced by the government, why does the government exist?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 02:40:33 PM by Turtlekid1 »
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #89 on: April 03, 2011, 02:51:00 PM »
Inconvenience was far from the biggest flaw the old covenant had. It was external, rather than written on our hearts, and never really sunk through. It was unable to save and was never meant to save because it was about actions, not the heart.

The American government exists to protect rights.

Quote from: Thomas Jefferson
We hold these truths to be self-evident:
That all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
Protecting rights will often overlap with morality, but not always. Going to a monster truck rally instead of visiting your dying grandmother in the hospital is morally wrong. Killing someone is morally wrong. Eating excessive amounts of unhealthy food is morally wrong (the body is a temple and all that). Should the government punish all of those? (note that I didn't ask if they should punish them equally)

And I'm pretty sure the early church was still pretty immoral even under the new covenant.  You're always going to have to deal with human nature.
True, but notice that in I Corinthians 5, where Paul writes to a church where "it is actually reported that there is sexual immorality ... and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife," he never makes any appeals for the government to do anything. He rebukes their immorality and demands that they excommunicate the guy sleeping with his stepmom, but never calls for a civil law against it.

In fact, in chapter 6, he rebukes Christians who rely on the courts and the government to settle disputes rather than dealing with them within the church.

There is still a need for moral guidelines, and for consequences for breaking them, but not from the government. Under the Constitution, the government's job is to protect our rights and give us security, and nothing in the Bible calls on it to go farther. Rather, it calls on us to do it ourselves.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 03:02:25 PM by CrossEyed7 »
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

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