For or Against?

[Sapphira]

Do you EVER say anything that isn't disrespectful, sarcastic, or critical of others, Chup?

You know EXACTLY what I'm saying. And you know I'm just weird (and stubborn) about saying that word. That's my issue to deal with, not yours.

CTOAN, what you said is exactly what I was talking about that people need to stop doing. Vid, you're being sarcastic and judgmental toward him with your post, too.

I'm yelling and annoyed. If I'm being judgmental or condescending right now (I'm not sure if I am or not; I can't really tell), I apologize for it and for being hypocritical. :S

[Chupperson Weird]

I'm sorry.

[TEM]

I'd like to congratulate Sapphira on posting the first completely intelligent and coherent "Against" argument in this thread (excluding the censoring of the word "sex", which I find humorous more than pointless).

[Vidgmchtr]

CTOAN, what you said is exactly what I was talking about that people need to stop doing. Vid, you're being sarcastic and judgmental toward him with your post, too.

I'm just showing him it's not right to do what he did, by fighting fire with fire. I'd rather not be sarcastic and condescending, it's something I definitely hate when others do so to me.

CTOAN's "Fine-print", however, is just extremely obnoxious, and he needs to be taught the moral "If you can't say anything nice, keep your dirty mouth shut."

[Hirocon]

I'm just curious, Sapphira, when you chose your user name were you aware of the definition of the word sapphic?  You have a deceptive user name for some one who rejects the homosexual lifestyle.  I'm not trying to use that as some pathetic counterpoint to your views; I thought everything you said was very cogent.  I just think it's funny.

[Sapphira]

Thanks, TEM, :] (and ahaha >_<).

Hirocon:
Ahahaha, no, I was not. O__o
I was aware, though, of a woman in the Bible named Sapphira (Acts 5, I think) who did some not-so-great things. >_<

I chose the name, though, because I thought it looked/sounded cool, and sapphire is my birthstone and one of my favorite colors. XD

[Chupperson Weird]

That meaning isn't quite legitimate; that is, it was put upon the term later by others who used it as (support? justification? I cannot think of the word) for their own purposes. Read More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sappho
I'm not saying either way here, but no one really knew what she was thinking. Poetry is tricksy.

P.S. "Sapphira" Doesn't seem like it would have been an all too uncommon name. Related to "sapphire", of course.

[Luigison]

Sapphira lost me at the *** part.

Edit:  Whoops.  I just saw Chup and Sapph's exchange over this very thing. 
Edit 2:  While I only disagree with some of Sapph's points, I fully agree with TEM's appraisal of her post.  BTW, I have decided not to change my sig.

[Lizard Dude]

Insane Steve does bring up a good point, which brings me to responding.
Bear with me; this will be extremely long. If you actually read this whole thing, I commend you, and I really appreciate it.

While I do not support gay marriage--or that lifestyle--I do not think of them as any worse or better than anyone else, including straight people. I find the lifestyles of, well, pretty much most straight people anymore, to be appalling. I don't agree with those lifestyles, but I don't judge them because who am I to do so? I have faults of my own, and there are things I don't like about myself, either. We need to care about people (in general, including gays) and love them wherever they're at in life, even if you disagree with them, and even if they don't like you or have hurt you.

Whether it's admitted or not, marriage is a religious institution. It's become more and more secular, but honestly, it really can't be separated from it. Think about it--why do people still get married today, and not simply live together (as many do, but still majority get married)? I mean, what is it that makes it any different? (Besides any benefits the government provides, which really isn't anything unless a spouse dies--but I doubt people want to think about that or plan on their spouse dying, unless they're sick-minded and twisted. The main benefit is health insurance, but that's not government related--it varies from company to company, so even if gay marriage was legalized/considered legitimate, I doubt all companies would immediately change their policies.) Pretty much the only real reasons for marriage are 1) religious, and 2) showing a deeper level of commitment.

With commitment, though, I really have to question that because over half of marriages end in divorce. Divorcing someone is more of a hassle, yes, than breaking up with someone you're living with, but still, it's very common, and doesn't stop people from doing it for virtually any--or no--reason at all. People may say they're committed, or plan on being so, but really, in today's world, are they? Many are, sure, but majority seems to say otherwise.

So pretty much, it goes back to religion. Even if people aren't religious at all, marriage is still seen as a societal "norm", and many people get married because it's the "acceptable" thing to do. Or, basically, marriage is a tradition. This tradition is tied to religious roots (even if not in the entire history of humankind (which I believe it does), at least from the religious roots of those who founded this country and of the people from the different cultures who came here (our ancestors, basically)).

Going back to the beginning, I do not think our society will be "horrible" and "immoral" and "hopelessly lost" if gay marriage was legalized and approved of everywhere, because, frankly, I believe our society in general is already at that point, regardless of homo***uality. Straight people have ruined the sanctity of marriage as it is, with easy divorce, less commitment in general, infidelity, and *** outside of marriage. It especially bugs me when straight people condemn gays simply because they like the same gender. (Yikes, I need to be careful that I don’t judge those people, either).

As I said earlier, I don't see gays as any better or worse than straight people. My problem is when people have *** outside of marriage, as I believe that is originally intended to be a holy, pure act of unity and love between a husband, wife, and, yes, God. (I understand not all of you believe this (or may not understand this), but since this is what I believe, it has an important impact on where I stand.)  Anyway, I believe *** has been totally twisted and distorted from its original intent and has become either a filthy, dirty thing in society, or has become so common and meaningless that everything pure and holy about it has been completely defiled and destroyed. (I also realize how ironic and/or fitting it is that I'm censoring the actual word.)

Now, because I see *** as something that should only be done within the context of marriage, one might think, okay, if gays are allow to marry, then they will be doing it within the context of marriage--which will make it okay, right?  The Bible, what I believe in (yes, again, I realize not everyone shares these beliefs) shows that God detests when "a man lies with another man," etc., so within the context of "marriage" or not, is really not the point. I don't want legalized gay marriage to become an excuse for gays to justify having ***, even if they wait until marriage, even if they're monogamous, because I still see that as wrong. (Honestly, though, I do see that as better than when two straight people sleep around with each other and with other people outside of marriage.)

Also, with gays, I do not judge them for being attracted to the same gender because, honestly, you really can't control how you feel about someone. Regardless if one is "born with it" or "choose to be gay", or anything in between, whatever it is people debate about, it doesn't really matter, because you can't control feelings. What you can control, though, is actions and even attitude. It's the actions--and especially the lifestyle--I have a problem with, not the individuals or the feelings; it's what you do with the feelings that matters.

I think that people need to stop pointing the finger at others, stop judging them and condemning them. No one is perfect, and no one is superior or inferior to others, at least in God's eyes. Judging people's souls or state of morals isn't in our place, because we're imperfect, too. (I realize this is hypocritical of me, because I’ve done that and probably still do; I don’t like it and am trying to work on that.) People need to look inside their own selves first before they look at others; it's so easy to make excuses for our own actions and point the blame or problem on someone else, or to play victim. (That's not to say others are innocent, but it starts with owning up to your own self, first). I'm totally going generic and universal now, so I'll stop. But what we need to do is love and respect others, even if you disagree with them, even if you don't like what they're doing. That doesn't mean you need to support them or keep quiet; you can tell someone you disagree or don't like something, as long as it's in a respectful, caring way (condescendingly is disrespectful, too). This can apply to people who disagree with the gay lifestyle, people who disagree with those who dislike the gay lifestyle, or to anyone about anything.

Again, I know not everyone believes in God or has different beliefs than me, and I respect that. Please respect what I have to say, even if you disagree. I will add this: God loves gays, God loves the people who judge gays, God loves the people who support gays, God loves those who don't judge gays, God loves those who insult and hurt others, loves those who have been hurt or insulted, God loves those who follow and believe in him, loves people who don't believe in him, God loves those who hate him, and even loves hypocrites. He doesn’t love many of these actions, but he loves everyone equally and infinitely---AND everyone makes mistakes and has flaws and problems and struggles. I find that incredible, amazing, and humbling.

Bravo! Like TEM said, this is a very good post, and doesn't use the logically weak argument of "God said so". Sapphira understands that Christianity is and should be about love and inclusion, not about attacking others.

[Bigluigifan1.0]

(Too long to be quoted twice on the same page.)

I agree, and actually read it because I figured "Well, with Sapph posting here, I have a feeling that this is one of the best posts in the whole topic." I was right. ^_^
There was something awesome in that post that I really wanted to quote but I completely lost after I read it, I guess because the whole post made a lot of sense. Anyways, I'm gald I didn't actually waste my time reading, but I think I'm wasting my time typing, but I thank Sapphira for one of the very few "worth while" reading posts here.

[CashCrazed]

I'm just curious, Sapphira, when you chose your user name were you aware of the definition of the word sapphic?  You have a deceptive user name for some one who rejects the homosexual lifestyle.  I'm not trying to use that as some pathetic counterpoint to your views; I thought everything you said was very cogent.  I just think it's funny.

This was the same point I was trying to make months ago when she pulled the ban-trigger on me. >_<

What's my opinion on gay marriage? I'm all for it. The state should not deny the same legal rights to certain loving couples that they grant to other loving couples on the basis of a religiously founded favor of heterosexuality. Now I'm completely ignoring the religious aspect here; if a homosexual couple wants a marriage recognized by their church, it's up to their church to decide, but if they go to a courthouse requesting a legal marriage, the state should be not discriminating.

[Markio]

Of course all the heterosexual males praise the female's post... 9_9

Before I get all confused in a bunch of words, let me just say that I am more "for" than "against" gay marriage.  I guess my logic is that homosexuals don't choose to be so, so restricting them from an act of love would be... unloving?

I guess I was hoping I could come up with something good to say, but it looks like all the good comments were taken.  I'll just say that not liking gay people because they're gay isn't very nice, especially because they can't help being gay.  Sacrificing your love for a person for your religion is pretty twisted.  That's an actual choice too.  The fact is, homosexuals exist, despite what we think is ideal or right, so they should be embraced, not shunned.  Sure, I'm a Catholic that actually still goes to church sometimes and prays too, but I accept homosexuality and do not look at it as an abomination.  I guess it's kinda weird, but so is intercourse, if you think about it(which would make us perverts, thinking about sex and all).  This is more about homosexuality than the marriage part of it, but I think that's the core part that people are trivial about.  Oh, and... being a lesbian doesn't make you any less of a bein'.

So,  I'm "for" gay marriage.  At least I'm not against it.  This is the only line you really had to read.  I shoulda said so at the beginning.  Too late XP

[Pt_Peach]

I didn't want to post here when this topic was first posted for fear of being flamed. But Now:

I am totally, 100%,  against it. It might be just how I was raised. And it is against my religion. I think that if God intended for us to be homosexuals/*******s, he would've made Adam and Adam and/or Eve and Eve. Anyways, if everyone was a homosexual/*******, and got married to one another, the human race would (and veeeeerrrry sloooowwwly) become extinct. I'm against how they live their life. I'm not against them. (And I think it's very unlikely that everyone would become gay)

[TEM]

Aaaaaand the "Against" argument has been lowered to its original standard.

[SolidShroom]

Not everyone is going to become a homosexual. It's totally impossible for that happen, but it is true that more homosexuals would cause a much needed population decline. As for it ruining the sancity of marriage, so does divorce! I don't believe in the Bible but I have read it and it frowns upon divorce. Divorce is just as bad as homosexual marriage, as is sex before marriage. Also, I think the government is making too big a deal of this. Shouldn't they be trying to stop murder,  war, theft, hate crimes, etc. not same sex marriage?!