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What are your views on abortion?

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Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 67835 times)

« Reply #120 on: July 01, 2008, 04:04:01 PM »
I am afraid to post in this topic, but here goes..

I am Pro-Life, but do believe that in cases of rape, it's ok to abort. Abortion as birth control is wrong, seeing as actual forms of birth control are up to 92% effective. My wife takes a pill every day.

I had a story, but I am afraid for what would happen after I tell it..
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« Reply #121 on: July 01, 2008, 04:55:21 PM »
Also, it seems that you're either:
A. Operating under the assumption that abortion is not murder, and therefore outlawing it would be oppressive
B. Okay with the idea of murder, and think the government shouldn't outlaw much of anything
C. Grouping in other religiopolitical issues irrelevant to the abortion debate

60% A, 40% C[/quote]

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Anyway, I'm not making appeals to morality here. I could just use religion to say that abortion is immoral

Appeals to religion are invalid, except for defining your own PERSONAL(READ: not mine or anyone else's) moral code. Nice try, though.

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secular government

...

the government is as secular as it is a democracy. I think there's a reference to religion on both our nation's pledge and our currency.

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I'm saying that science and philosophy point toward the fetus being a human being, and therefore must be protected by the United States government according to its founding principles. Just because my argument comes to the same conclusion as the religious right doesn't mean I'm asking for a theocracy.

Explain how -science- exclaims that a faetus is exactly the same as a person. To me, a faetus is as much a human as, I don't know, a pine cone is an actual pine tree. I'll acknowledge the last point about the religious right, though. I'm just bitter.
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« Reply #122 on: July 01, 2008, 05:25:23 PM »
America is an oligarchy, not a democracy or a republic. Those in power do a really, really good job of hiding this.

But our government is a democracy. As long as I don't hurt anyone, I can pursue anything I want. Just because we have a lot of rich people in our country doesn't mean we're an oligarchy. They had to work hard and go through school just like everyone else. It's attitude, not social status, that decides a person's future. Just take a look at our own Surgeon General. He grew up on the streets but now he's own of the most important leaders in America. It's not like an elitist (who, according to you, holds all the power) randomly picked him out to become the Surgeon General. He was picked because he worked hard and studied in order to become the best in his field. If an elitist held all the power, he wouldn't have even been considered because he was poor.

Besides, using social status as an excuse as to why a person didn't make it in life is rather hopeless. That means that anyone who is born into a poor family is doomed to failure. But I think a person is poor, not because he was born poor, but because he refused to work hard at it. Maybe that's why we have so many people in poverty in the first place anyway; the children of a poor man look at their father's failure and decide that his future will be theirs.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 05:43:25 PM by PaperLuigi »
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« Reply #123 on: July 01, 2008, 05:46:30 PM »
How can you say that? By that logic I can kill anything I darn well please (as long as it isn't an adult) and it wouldn't be bad.

I said gain intelligence, not continue developing. If it has no intelligence (which I define as the ability to think on a basic level) to begin with, and has not obtained it yet, it's not a person in my book, but a potential person.
every

« Reply #124 on: July 01, 2008, 06:02:01 PM »
If it has no intelligence (which I define as the ability to think on a basic level) to begin with, and has not obtained it yet, it's not a person in my book, but a potential person.

You said that you were against killing something just to be killing it, correct? You also said that killing an infant with a reason isn't as bad as killing someone with intelligence (an adult, perhaps); basically, it's like killing a plant. Well, instead of using intelligence as a reason not to kill, how about we use innocence? Let's say (hypothetically) that in my book, a person isn't a person unless he or she is innocent. The baby hasn't done anything wrong (because it's a baby) but the adult has done something wrong (it can be benign as cheating on his girlfriend) somewhere in the past. By that logic killing the adult, who isn't as innocent as the baby, wouldn't be all that bad. Do you realize how that sounds? I don't think we should compare humans to plants here. Killing a human that is unintelligent, innocent and young is just as bad as killing a human that is intelligent, not innocent and old.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 06:03:44 PM by PaperLuigi »
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CrossEyed7

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« Reply #125 on: July 01, 2008, 08:52:37 PM »
60% A, 40% C
Well, for A, provide your rebuttal to my arguments that it is. For C, please don't do that. We're trying to have a debate about abortion, not religion.

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Appeals to religion are invalid, except for defining your own PERSONAL(READ: not mine or anyone else's) moral code. Nice try, though.
Actually no, but that's not what the debate is about or what I'm doing, so never mind.

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...

the government is as secular as it is a democracy. I think there's a reference to religion on both our nation's pledge and our currency.
...Neither of which refers to a specific religion, or, more importantly, was created by the founders. There is separation of church and state, meaning there is no forced state religion and no formal ties between the government and any state church. On the other hand, allowing churches to exist and to espouse their views in public, listening to their petitions, and having religious adherents in the government is part of being a democracy.

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Explain how -science- exclaims that a faetus is exactly the same as a person. To me, a faetus is as much a human as, I don't know, a pine cone is an actual pine tree. I'll acknowledge the last point about the religious right, though. I'm just bitter.
Basic science shows that the fetus is a living homo sapiens, with its own DNA distinct from its mother's. Logic and philosophy show, IMO, that none of the differences between a fetus and an adult human make it less of a person and justify killing it (my main argument is over here, for reference.

A pine cone would be a better analogy for a sperm or an egg on its own. Once there's a fertilized zygote, it's more like a sapling -- just like a tree, except a lot smaller. But really, analogies to plants are inadequate, since we don't think killing trees is that bad anyway. (Also, it leaves out the fact that 99% of the people cutting down their trees planted the trees themselves)
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« Reply #126 on: July 01, 2008, 10:10:23 PM »
I dunno. Pro-life people, I just don't get it. A fetus isn't a human being. It's a human fetus. I will give it to them that yes, it's a form of life and that ending a form of life is morally wrong, but still! Abortion is not murder! I'm so sick of hearing that. I can't see how people can call themselves pro-life and meanwhile eat meat. What about the cows? You're killing them, but could still do without killing them.

For the record, Oligarchy is rule by the few, not the rich. Plutocracy is rule by the rich. And while our government isn't necessarily a Democracy OR a Republic, it is by no means an Oligarchy either. [Edit] I wish it were one, because that'd solve a lot of our problems. Oligarchy requires some sort of exclusive status for EVERYONE in the government, however, theoretically anyone can be elected in this nation.

P.S. don't get me wrong, I'm not pro-abortion OR pro-choice or anything. I'm anti-choice. that's right. I'm ANTI. Ooooh, oh no, it's negative.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 05:01:17 PM by Sapphira »
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« Reply #127 on: July 01, 2008, 10:15:12 PM »
I can't see how people can call themselves pro-life and meanwhile eat meat. What about the cows? You're killing them, but could still do without killing them.

So you think only vegetarians are against murder? I'm pro-choice, I'm just illustrating this confusion.
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« Reply #128 on: July 01, 2008, 10:46:46 PM »
For the record, Oligarchy is rule by the few, not the rich.

Oligarchy is defined as a "form of government where political power effectively rests with a small elite segment of society (whether distinguished by wealth, family, military powers or spiritual hegemony)." When I said "rich guy" I probably should've said "elite" or something like that. But aren't most elitist rich anyway? My main point is that social status doesn't determine where a person goes in life.
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CrossEyed7

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« Reply #129 on: July 02, 2008, 12:53:01 AM »
I dunno. Pro-life people, I just don't get it. A fetus isn't a human being. It's a human fetus. I will give it to them that yes, it's a form of life and that ending a form of life is morally wrong, but still! Abortion is not murder! I'm so sick of hearing that.
Did you read my thing? Where did I go wrong?
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« Reply #130 on: July 02, 2008, 01:06:45 AM »
Yes, I read it CrossEyed, but see, I disagree with you and most people on several parts. I think killing a baby is less horrible than killing an adult. I think killing someone brainless (literally, i.e. Terry Schiavo) isn't as reprehensible as killing a normal human. It's because human life really is based on what makes you human, such as thinking, feeling, and that sort of stuff. Like I said, I'm not saying abortion isn't killing, I'm saying it can't be called 'murder'. If that's the case, euthanizing a terminally ill patient is also murder.
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CrossEyed7

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« Reply #131 on: July 02, 2008, 01:26:26 AM »
You don't think it's worse to kill an innocent, defenseless victim?
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« Reply #132 on: July 02, 2008, 08:30:06 AM »
If someone I know accidentally gets pregnant, I'll be sure to let you adopt the baby.

CrossEyed7

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« Reply #133 on: July 02, 2008, 12:59:51 PM »
I'd be honored to save a child from death, though it would probably be better to give him to one of the thousands of families far more prepared to adopt. Seeing as I have no steady cashflow, no residence of my own, a limited amount of maturity, and massive student loans, I know I'm really not ready to raise a child yet -- which is one of the reasons I choose not to have sex.
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« Reply #134 on: July 02, 2008, 01:42:57 PM »
Waste of sarcasm on my part...

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