Mariology (serious posts wanted)

[The Chef]

You're requesting that assuming that anybody here who gets SMG2 will be able to accurately render the continents as they appear on said planet. If you want it done, why don't you just try it yourself?

[Koopalmier]

Because I have to wait a month to get the game ?

[Fawful Fan]

Or maybe they were just born in the Mushroom Kingdom and lived there. End of story.

Because then you're blatantly ignoring established details for the sake of making it easier to follow.  If you want to just play the games without thinking about the background and story then that's fine, but if you're interested in creating a comprehensive timeline you can't just pick and choose.  I don't like the War in Iraq so I'm just going to pretend it never happened.

I know there's a difference between real life history and a fictional world, but I'm just saying that I find it fun to attempt to analyze a fictional world as if it was real history.  If you don't then that's fine and I don't have to force my ideas down your throat.  But I hope this explains my approach.

[Chupperson Weird]

Please provide proof of established details.

[Koopalmier]

Because then you're blatantly ignoring established details for the sake of making it easier to follow.  If you want to just play the games without thinking about the background and story then that's fine, but if you're interested in creating a comprehensive timeline you can't just pick and choose.  I don't like the War in Iraq so I'm just going to pretend it never happened.

I know there's a difference between real life history and a fictional world, but I'm just saying that I find it fun to attempt to analyze a fictional world as if it was real history.  If you don't then that's fine and I don't have to force my ideas down your throat.  But I hope this explains my approach.

Except he's right. It was never ever stated in a official Mario material from Japan that Mario and Luigi had any relation with Earth. It's like if there was a debate "Is Wario Mario's cousin?". He's not his cousin, brother or anything, end of story, even if Nintendo Power - an American magazine - stated it - long ago.

[Fawful Fan]

It was never ever stated in a official Mario material from Japan that Mario and Luigi had any relation with Earth.

But it was stated in official Mario material from North America.  It's in the official Mario cartoons, the official Mario comics, the official Mario books, and even some of the official Mario games.  Whether you like these shows/books/games is irrelevant-it's official Mario media.  And since this detail of Mario's history does not contradict anything, I don't see the need to disregard it or treat it as an alternate continuity.

Heck, even to this day Mario's official voice actor, Charles Martinet, calls Mario a Brooklyn plumber.

[The Chef]

But it was stated in official Mario material from North America.

Yes. Back in the late 80s and early 90s. Not so much anymore.

It's in the official Mario cartoons,

Which are not the games.

the official Mario comics,

Which are not the games.

the official Mario books,

Which are not the games..

and even some of the official Mario games.

No it hasn't.

Whether you like these shows/books/games is irrelevant-it's official Mario media.

 
Official in that it was officially released by Nintendo of America. Several years ago. They no longer acknowledge them in any considerably fashion. Additionally, the parent company  in Japan has never acknowledged the aforementioned media, which, as I mentioned just a moment ago, is NOT the games. The Mario games are the core of the Mario franchise, and as such are not directly affiliated with the media you just referred to (or in fan-speak, are not part of the same continuity).

And since this detail of Mario's history does not contradict anything, I don't see the need to disregard it or treat it as an alternate continuity.

Except it does. We saw Mario being born in the Mushroom Kingdom in a mainline Mario game. Brooklyn is never seen nor mentioned in any Mario game anywhere (not even Mario is Mssing!, which took place on Earth). None of the outside Mario material that refers to Brooklyn is directly tied with the Mario games.

Heck, even to this day Mario's official voice actor, Charles Martinet, calls Mario a Brooklyn plumber.

That's because it was the first thing the PR guys told him when he did the audition back in 1995/1996. It's probably been stuck in his mind ever since. Not to mention, Charles Martinet has no hand in Mario's creation or production. He has no say in whether or not Mario is truly from Brooklyn. The game developers and scenario writers do.

It is widely known that people still act like Mario is from Brooklyn even though that's not truly a part of the games, largely because of all the stuff you just used to argue this point. Answer me this, then. If all of the material you just mentioned is "official", then why isn't Bowser a T-Rex-turned-human in any Mario game? Why doesn't Peach have red hair? Why didn't the events of SMW involve Peach wearing Luigi's clothes?

Simple: because they are merely outside adaptations of the games, which are the entire reason for the existence of the Mario brand and are therefore the epicenter of Mario continuity. The games have probably very likely borrowed some concepts from these outside adaptations (heck, the Great Mission to Rescue Peach anime movie is probably the biggest contributor in this regard), but Mario being from Brooklyn is not one of them. Period end.

[Fawful Fan]

Just because they don't talk about it anymore doesn't mean they threw it away.  It may simply be irrelevant now since Mario lives in the Mushroom Kingdom or they may not wish to bring it up since, as established before, there is no official canon.  This simply means that Nintendo does not spoon-feed us what to accept or what to disregard.  So I don't see the problem if I want to include this in a comprehensive timeline of the entire Mario franchise.

But my main point is that Nintendo never denied that Mario is from Brooklyn.  Even if Nintendo of America doesn't talk about it today, that doesn't undo the fact that they have before through their Mario media.

You keep disregarding the Brooklyn story since it is not mentioned in the games.  I think this brings up the issue of authorship.

When Miyamoto created this fictional world, he obviously becomes the author.  He has the authority that establishes the characters, how the world works, etc.  Since he made this fictional reality under contract with Nintendo, Nintendo owns the rights.  When Nintendo offers these rights to a third party like Valiant or DiC, they grant them the authorship to make a statement about that fictional reality.  But being the original authors, Miyamoto and Nintendo have a greater authority.  So although Princess Peach Toadstool has appeared with red hair in some media, Nintendo's official character art takes precedence over that.  But the issue of Mario growing up in Brooklyn does not contradict what Miyamoto has established in his higher authority.

Yes, we see the babies delivered to the Mushroom Kingdom, but how did they get there?  Where did the stork get them?  Could they have possibly been born elsewhere and delivered somewhere else?  Did the babies move and grow up somewhere else?  These are simply gaps in the timeline free for the fans to speculate and theorize until a higher authority makes a statement.

So to answer your questions...

...then why isn't Bowser a T-Rex-turned-human in any Mario game?

He isn't because there is no way to reconcile the story of the live-action Mario movie with the timeline from the games.  The movie makers had a degree of authorship to contribute, but they instead made their own version that blatantly contradicts the source material, the higher authority.  I do not believe that the comics/books/cartoons make such a contradiction, so I see no reason to disregard it in my comprehensive timeline of the entire Mario series.

Why didn't the events of SMW involve Peach wearing Luigi's clothes?

Not an issue.  The Super Mario Adventures comic book was not a retelling of Super Mario World.  It was its own story.

By the way, when I mentioned that it has been established that Mario is from Brooklyn in an actual game, I was referring to Mario's Time Machine, not Mario is Missing.

Maybe one day I'll post my comprehensive timeline on the Mario series in this forum.

[The Chef]

Just because they don't talk about it anymore doesn't mean they threw it away.  It may simply be irrelevant now since Mario lives in the Mushroom Kingdom or they may not wish to bring it up since, as established before, there is no official canon.  This simply means that Nintendo does not spoon-feed us what to accept or what to disregard.  So I don't see the problem if I want to include this in a comprehensive timeline of the entire Mario franchise.

No, it does. These days NoA has more or less retroactively fitted any representation of Mario to comply with what NCL normally does. If a company drops an idea, they don't go and tell everybody about it like it's that important. That's unprofessional. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the Brooklyn thing doesn't apply to Mario anymore as it hasn't been mentioned ANYWHERE in ANY official Mario material, game-based or not.

But my main point is that Nintendo never denied that Mario is from Brooklyn.  Even if Nintendo of America doesn't talk about it today, that doesn't undo the fact that they have before through their Mario media.

That still doesn't mean it applies. If you want to make a timeline based strictly on the Mario games, then you should ONLY use what's in the games and nothing else.

When Miyamoto created this fictional world, he obviously becomes the author.  He has the authority that establishes the characters, how the world works, etc.  Since he made this fictional reality under contract with Nintendo, Nintendo owns the rights.  When Nintendo offers these rights to a third party like Valiant or DiC, they grant them the authorship to make a statement about that fictional reality.  But being the original authors, Miyamoto and Nintendo have a greater authority.  So although Princess Peach Toadstool has appeared with red hair in some media, Nintendo's official character art takes precedence over that.  But the issue of Mario growing up in Brooklyn does not contradict what Miyamoto has established in his higher authority.

Miyamoto never said Mario was from Brooklyn. He also said he wasn't. That doesn't mean the DiC cartoons take precedence over the games concerning Mario's origin, because Mario is not from Brooklyn in the games.

Yes, we see the babies delivered to the Mushroom Kingdom, but how did they get there?  Where did the stork get them?  Could they have possibly been born elsewhere and delivered somewhere else?  Did the babies move and grow up somewhere else?  These are simply gaps in the timeline free for the fans to speculate and theorize until a higher authority makes a statement.

It's a friggin' cartoon, you lunkhead. Babies tend to be born via the stork in cartoony settings. If you seriously dispute THAT, that you're a gosh[darn] lost cause.

So to answer your questions...He isn't because there is no way to reconcile the story of the live-action Mario movie with the timeline from the games.  The movie makers had a degree of authorship to contribute, but they instead made their own version that blatantly contradicts the source material, the higher authority.  I do not believe that the comics/books/cartoons make such a contradiction, so I see no reason to disregard it in my comprehensive timeline of the entire Mario series.Not an issue.  The Super Mario Adventures comic book was not a retelling of Super Mario World.  It was its own story.

The cartoons and comics blatantly contradict what's depicted in the games as well as the movie, just not anywhere near as much. And yes, the Super Mario Adventures comic WAS a retelling of SMW. Mario and Luigi acted like they never met Yoshi before, and the characters appear to have found the Cape for the first time as well. It also was printed in Nintendo Power around the same time SMW was released, so it was obviously there to promote it.

By the way, when I mentioned that it has been established that Mario is from Brooklyn in an actual game, I was referring to Mario's Time Machine, not Mario is Missing.

Same bogus. I don't even recall either game saying Mario was from Brooklyn, so either way it doesn't matter.

[CrossEyed7]

If you want to make a timeline based strictly on the Mario games, then you should ONLY use what's in the games and nothing else.

Nice tautology, but where did he say he was basing it strictly on the games?

my comprehensive timeline of the entire Mario series.

Also:

Why didn't the events of SMW involve Peach wearing Luigi's clothes?

Why didn't the events of SM64 involve Luigi and Wario?

[Koopalmier]

ANYTHING THAT WASN'T MADE BY NINTENDO OF JAPAN AND ITS AFFILIATE COMPANIES SHOULDN'T EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE AND FALL INTO OBLIVION.

Miyamoto didn't knew about the Mario cartoons until someone told him Louis Albano died. The only non-game thing he knew about until then was the Super Mario Bros. movie (that he liked, by the way). Is that enough ?

Nintendo of America isn't the one that makes games (and could even be considered as not being Nintendo). It only makes US websites for the games, and publishes the game in America.
They could have given to DiC the rights to do a Mario cartoon, but that cartoon heavily contradicts many, many Mario games. Super Mario Adventures was a good comic but the characters' personality are too contradictory to the games. Same for everything that isn't a game and wasn't made by Nintendo of Japan or its affiliate companies.




On another note: the solar system (being World 2) shown in Super Mario Galaxy 2 is NOT Mario's solar system. So Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat is still in the same reality, and we know how are the planets of Mario's solar system (as shown in Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat) and what's their orbit (as shown in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door).

[Fawful Fan]

I'm not saying the cartoons/comics/books take precedence over the games concerning Mario's birth.  I'm simply saying that they can be reconciled.

Look, all I'm saying is that I like to understand the entire Mario franchise in a historical, comprehensive approach.  "Historical" as in I don't exclude things because I don't like them or because they weren't directly made by Miyamoto.  I don't think Miyamoto is the sole author of the Marioverse.  Otherwise, Daisy and Wario do not exist.  You seem to understand the Mario universe by solely looking at the main games, as if they were the sole authority, where certain elements must be stated in those games to be "real."  We can agree to disagree about our approaches to understanding the Marioverse.

As for Super Mario Adventures, it must take place before the events of Super Mario World.  Simple as that.

ANYTHING THAT WASN'T MADE BY NINTENDO OF JAPAN AND ITS AFFILIATE COMPANIES SHOULDN'T EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE AND FALL INTO OBLIVION.

By what authority/authorship do you declare that the Mario media is not part of the timeline?

But one more thing.  Do you really believe that the following takes place in the Mushroom World?

[Chupperson Weird]

I'm not sure why every game that features Mario should be included in the so-called "canon". Miyamoto clearly stated that he wanted Mario to just be some guy that he could throw into whatever game he wanted. Which is why he steers the paddle in Alleyway and stuff.

[Toad]

Which is why he steers the paddle in Alleyway

Speaking of, does he (Mario) realise that there's also a bonus area in that game based on his 8-bit small form? I think it's a bonus area. It's been ages since I last played that game..

While there is no official canon, there are obviously some games that take place long before any of the others. The Yoshi's Island series comes before anything else, and SMB2 could fall practically anywhere.

[Fawful Fan]

I'm not sure why every game that features Mario should be included in the so-called "canon". Miyamoto clearly stated that he wanted Mario to just be some guy that he could throw into whatever game he wanted. Which is why he steers the paddle in Alleyway and stuff.

Okay.  This is why some people may wish to disregard some games/alternate media.  Nintendo does not draw out an official timeline.  They've even said that they'd rather leave it up to the individual player's imagination.  So my approach to understanding the Marioverse is looking at it as a whole, like a bunch of jigsaw pieces and imagining how they can all fit together.