Author Topic: Why is it I didn't like M&L? (Read 12715 times)

Tv_Themes · « **on:** June 29, 2009, 12:26:59 PM »

I'm trying to wonder if I should get Bowsers Inside Story, but why?

I didn't even finish Superstar Saga and I barely played through Partners in Time, why waste $40 on Bowsers Inside Story?

I can't understand why I don't like these games. I loved Super Mario RPG and I loved the Paper Mario Games, what is wrong with the other set of RPGs?

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #1 on:** June 29, 2009, 12:37:07 PM »

Well, elaborate! What, exactly, turns you off to them?

Myself, I loved the first one and was iffy on the second. BIS, though... we'll see.

Mr. Wiggles · « **Reply #2 on:** June 29, 2009, 05:40:19 PM »

Do you hate absurd wackiness?

Self-referential and depracating humor?

An intuitive and overly simple battle engine?

Reading?

Chupperson Weird · « **Reply #3 on:** June 29, 2009, 06:00:25 PM »

It's probably the fact that is isn't an intrinsically fun game. That said, though, neither is Paper Mario.

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #4 on:** June 29, 2009, 09:27:27 PM »

Define "intrinsically" (at least in the context of videogames).

Chupperson Weird · « **Reply #5 on:** June 29, 2009, 10:44:37 PM »

Meaning, I had to try to like it.

Sqrt2 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 30, 2009, 04:59:47 PM »

For me I think the M&L games are too much like normal RPG's. All the bosses have 500+ HP, and most of the time I'm not sure if I'm actually doing any damage. Also having to time hammer swings to deflect projectiles, is completely beyond me.

BP · « **Reply #7 on:** June 30, 2009, 06:42:02 PM »

Oh man, counterattacking was the best part of M&L's battle system, after Bros. Attacks.

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #8 on:** June 30, 2009, 07:33:35 PM »

The bosses really only had a bazillion HP in PiT, because the battle system was poorly swayed towards using only Bros. Attacks. Either you used Red Shells for every round or you spent an hour trying to kill someone.

Chupperson Weird · « **Reply #9 on:** June 30, 2009, 07:48:02 PM »

Haha wow, I think the M&L games are too little like "normal" RPGs. That said, I did beat the first one. Second one just had super boring battles and though I got pretty far I never finished it.

FlamingBlueMario · « **Reply #10 on:** June 30, 2009, 09:10:19 PM »

When I beat Mario and Luigi: Partners in Time, I felt...empty. Unlike its successful predecessor Mario and Luigi: SuperStar Saga, there was NO replay value whatsoever and it lacked a lot of minigames. Plus, the entire plot/story was rather chilling and depressing at times. So I traded it in for something more enjoyable, and I have no regrets in doing so. M&L:PiT may have been somewhat of a flop, but it doesn't mean that M&L:BIS will be. Outside of Japan, Mario and Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story hasn't been released yet, and it looks pretty promising, so we'll see.

Weegee · « **Reply #11 on:** July 01, 2009, 01:14:33 AM »

I'm just hoping that this title will, unlike its predecessors, actually give the player permanent recognition for having beaten the game. Little in this world is more frustrating than completing a game, only to discover that its programmers have pulled a Groundhog Day on you by not offering an oppurtunity to save after the credits, forcing you to restart at the last save point before the final boss... as if you had never fought it. I was pleasantly surprised to find that PM:TTYD's final foe can indeed be vanquished for good, and seeing that proposes a glimmer of hope for Bowser's Inside Story's ending.

Reading · « **Reply #12 on:** July 01, 2009, 10:19:14 AM »

Quote from: FlamingBlueMario on June 30, 2009, 09:10:19 PM

Plus, the entire plot/story was rather chilling and depressing at times.

I liked the dark story. It was an interesting change of pace. I agree about being able to save after the final boss, too; there's all of those little extras and such that are fun to go for after beating the game.

I have no doubt that I'll like Bowser's Inside Story; I liked the previous two, and even though Partners in Time was my least favorite Mario RPG, it wasn't a bad game by any means, or even a mediocre one. Plus, I can't wait to see how the storyline turns out. Experiencing the story is one of my favorite parts of a video game, which is why I hate excuse plots and the like.

Chupperson Weird · « **Reply #13 on:** July 01, 2009, 10:26:59 AM »

Weegee: Play 99% of other RPGs. Not being able to save after the end is kind of a convention. Unless it has New Game +.

BP · « **Reply #14 on:** July 01, 2009, 12:01:57 PM »

I don't know which I prefer. Most last bosses don't give experience points (the Shadow Queen gives you one star point), so aside from dialog changes there's no difference between beating the last boss and 100%ing, and going back before the last boss, 100%ing, and still having the boss the fight.

EarthBound did it fine. You can explore the entire world of the game after beating Giygas and most everybody will have something nice to say, the only enemies that can possibly be left are extremely difficult to avoid in the main story so they're sure to be dead already, when your whole party has left you can ride the bike in the Deep Darkness, and generally go about until you're as bored of it as you are of Paper Mario 2's post-game playability. But you can't save and you'll still be able to fight Giygas when you reset.

Weegee · « **Reply #15 on:** July 01, 2009, 02:44:00 PM »

EarthBound sounds fine. Conversely, both M&L titles have been travesties in that their respective worlds are left in eternal ruin despite having defeated the final boss countless times. Superstar Saga proved to be my first experience of a game which offers no permanent acknowledgement of having beaten the game, and realizing that fact nearly had me left in tears. Would it have been so difficult for the producers to, say, give the player a chance to save after the credits, reconstruct Beanbean Castle Town to its former glory and oust Bowletta from Bowser's Castle for good?

BP · « **Reply #16 on:** July 01, 2009, 03:05:55 PM »

That's a crazy claim. What games did you play before M&L? Most games in general don't do anything when you beat them but show you the ending, the credits, and freeze (to make you reset). Or at least, that's how it was until people started not caring about how good a game is if there's no "replay value..."

Turtlekid1 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 01, 2009, 03:07:47 PM »

The concept of saving after the final boss, or starting a "challenge mode/hero mode/second quest" were completely foreign to me until I played Ratchet and Clank 3.

Kimimaru · « **Reply #18 on:** July 01, 2009, 07:16:41 PM »

Most games don't have anything after defeating the final boss. I noticed that older games just froze after the "The End" sign and newer games allowed you to press "Start" after the "The End" sign and go back to the title screen. To my knowledge there are very few games that allow you to explore the world after the villian has been defeated.

Fawful Fan · « **Reply #19 on:** July 02, 2009, 05:33:06 PM »

I personally hated how the 2nd and 3rd Paper Mario games allowed you to save after the final boss. To me it just limits the game's replayability since you can't re-fight the final boss or re-watch the ending. Imagine if you could save at the end of, for example, Donkey Kong Country 2. You wouldn't have a game to play since all the levels would be destroyed and submerged underwater!

As for the topic's original inquiry: I have no idea. I love the M&L series for its unique gameplay and wacky story/humor and can't understand why anybody wouldn't love it. Tv_Themes, did you at least enjoy the characters or story? Do you not like the style of the games, or maybe the 'simultaneously control multiple characters' gameplay setup is not appealing to you?

Weegee · « **Reply #20 on:** July 02, 2009, 10:34:44 PM »

Permission to throttle Fawful Fan for having an opinion which differs from mine? I can't honestly agree with a single point made in the first half of his post. First, a game's "replayability" generally refers to its enjoyability in subsequent play-throughs after having finished it at least once. Personally, even dwelling on the thought of a technically "unbeatable" final boss makes my stomach churn, knowing that fighting it is for nothing. In Weegee's opinion, eternal in-game gratification for one's feats is much more worthwhile than the ability to view a game's credits for the umpteenth time. It could almost be said that witholding recognition from the player shows a lack of inegrity on the programmers' part. I suppose that my greatest qualm against these titles isn't that their respective final foes cannot be permanently vanquished, but that they deliberately prevent the player from "keeping" a good, satisfying ending. This is how I'd have handled each Mario RPG's endings:

Super Mario RPG: Make Culex and/or Jinx re-fightable instead of Smithy. That way, the player could actually collect all seven Star Pieces and restore peace to the Mushroom Kingdom, but yet have tough foes to conquer afterwards.
Paper Mario: Return Peach's Castle to Toad Town, thus removing the veil of Peach-centric worry that enshrouds the city's inhabitants. Screw Bowser's Castle.
Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door: I believe that Nintendo handled this game perfectly: You save Peach and are subsequently provided with a reason for Mario's return and the Princess' absence. For those who would prefer to ***** about there being little to after defeating the Shadow Queen, the Pit of 100 Trials should more than suffice. I do agree that Bonetail should be re-fightable, however.
Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga: As mentioned earlier, this game's "conclusion" (or lack thereof) just about had me in tears. Why couldn't Nintendo have taken the effort to eliminate Bowletta after her defeat and restore Beanbean Castle Town to its former glory? What's worst is that the town is not only in eternal ruins, but virtually unexplorable to boot due to the abundance of locked doors.
Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time: Stuffwell's option to return the player to a time before having saved the Princess caught me completely off-guard and made my stomach drop. My apparently-too-high expectations included gaining the ability to visit each locale in its Shroob-infested past and its hopeful present after beating the game. Heck, some extra-powerful non-Shroob enemies could have replaced the extra-terrestrial invaders.
Super Paper Mario: See PM:TTYD, but remove the part about Peach and replace "Shadow Queen" with "Count Bleck and Super Dimentio".

Lastly, as for the example of DKC2, the ending would have been different if the player had been able to save after it.

BP · « **Reply #21 on:** July 03, 2009, 05:33:18 AM »

The Pit of 100 Trials has become Chapter 7 bonus material to me.

Tv_Themes · « **Reply #22 on:** July 03, 2009, 09:02:00 AM »

Oh the Pit of 100 Trials...

The end of that was cruel, cruel, cruel.

Seriously, after all that I was expecting like a mountain of treasure (seriously, I was) but then that wretched Bonetail shows up. I used all my power-ups getting to the bottom, and I have a final boss to beat? Good heavens! Of course, Bonetail pwned me.

But back on topic, when it comes to SS, I got as far as Bowsers Castle, but gave up. It was one of the last Koopalings who I found to be too tough, actually no, it was Fawful I couldn't beat. As for PiT, I think I gave up at this Shroob Ship refueling boss. The one that the babies sabotage.

Fawful Fan · « **Reply #23 on:** July 03, 2009, 10:35:21 AM »

Quote

Personally, even dwelling on the thought of a technically "unbeatable" final boss makes my stomach churn, knowing that fighting it is for nothing.

Well, at least for me, it's not "fighting for nothing" because I still personally experience the ending, even if my save file cannot "save" it. As long as I can still save my stats/completion percentage I'll be happy.

Quote

Lastly, as for the example of DKC2, the ending would have been different if the player had been able to save after it.

But I think that would have ruined an awesome ending for the sake of not being able to refight the final boss. Actually, now that I think about it, DKC2 does save after the final boss, but it only saves the stats, not the story, so you can replay any part again. I guess for me I just want games to have a replay option, either in the main menu or in the original file itself, so that I can relive my favorite moments without having to churn through the entire game all over again.

Tv_Themes · « **Reply #24 on:** July 03, 2009, 09:44:35 PM »

It is DKC3 that erases your file after 100%ing the game. That upset me so much.

Weegee · « **Reply #25 on:** July 03, 2009, 11:05:57 PM »

...Really? I'm suddenly feeling compelled to erase that game from my Virtual Console game assortment.

Lizard Dude · « **Reply #26 on:** July 03, 2009, 11:25:02 PM »

Uh, I don't think that's true.

---

Besides non-story games with unlocks (Guitar Hero, Brawl), save files have no value to me. If all my RPG/FPS/RTS/platformer save files got deleted right now I wouldn't care one whit, except for the games I was currently playing. If I replay a game, I usually save over the old file even if there are empty slots. If I quit a game before beating it but come back to it a few months later I will not use the old save. I will start a new one.

The value of games is the journey, not having 100% save files sitting around. You people are messed up.

Weegee · « **Reply #27 on:** July 04, 2009, 01:06:32 AM »

Weegee begs to differ. The gratification of thoroughly completing a game is, in my opinion, much of the reason for playing them. This statement will undoubtedly attract a boatload of flack from fellow readers, but: I'd rather be bored with a finished game than exasperated with one which, say, forces the player to re-start every day upon resetting the console. I prefer to see perfect files in games which require true dedication to achieve as being one's virtual trophy cabinet. I agree that platformers and the like are geared towards being constantly replayed, but the same can't be said about numerous RPG's. Restarting a Pokemon file which I've logged hundreds of hours into can be likened to melting my proverbial Olympic gold medal into napkin rings, although it's apparent that the same can't be said for others here.

I agree that much of a game's value is found in the journey. However, an admirable file can act as a testament to one's dedication, be a permanent keepsake of the game's journey, and just cause a case of the warm fuzzies every time you see it... in my opinion, of course.

Chupperson Weird · « **Reply #28 on:** July 04, 2009, 01:30:13 AM »

Your mistake was logging hundreds of hours in one game.

Weegee · « **Reply #29 on:** July 04, 2009, 01:32:48 AM »

Could be worse.

CrossEyed7 · « **Reply #30 on:** July 04, 2009, 01:53:27 AM »

Holy crap, that guy started on April 22 2007 and logged 1000 hours by July 3 2007? There's only 1752 hours in there! That's more than half!

jdaster64 · « **Reply #31 on:** July 04, 2009, 06:28:28 AM »

Dang... unless he leaves it on for prolonged periods of time just to boost the hours.

Also, I agree with Bird Person in that I like to finish the Pit of 100 Trials (andmost other sidequests) before the end of the game. Heck, I finished both Pits of 100 Trials in SPM before starting chapter 6!

Turtlekid1 · « **Reply #32 on:** July 04, 2009, 09:15:12 AM »

Well, the Pits of 100 Trials are pretty easy in SPM...

Fawful Fan · « **Reply #33 on:** July 04, 2009, 12:42:32 PM »

Quote

It is DKC3 that erases your file after 100%ing the game. That upset me so much.

No, DKC3 doesn't do that. Perhaps you mean that if you start a new file without the "hard" code and do everything that file, you can only achieve a maximum of 103%? If you want 105%, you must start a new file and input the "hard" code.

Tv_Themes · « **Reply #34 on:** July 04, 2009, 06:05:03 PM »

I didn't know SPM had a Pit of 100 Trials.

But then again, I only played halfway through it.

Lizard Dude · « **Reply #35 on:** July 05, 2009, 03:02:17 AM »

You don't know the half of it.

frostbite · « **Reply #36 on:** July 07, 2009, 03:26:02 AM »

Personally, I would love a game where after you beat the final boss, everything returns to status quo. Even in non-RPGs. Wouldn't Super Mario 64 be cool if the castle got restored and all the rooms had functions instead of holding giant paintings? I guess that's why I like The Sims so much. You just live, there's no conflict.

BP · « **Reply #37 on:** July 07, 2009, 03:32:30 AM »

You wouldn't have a game at that point.

Tv_Themes · « **Reply #38 on:** July 07, 2009, 10:13:05 AM »

Oh there's conflict alright, those stupid Sims who, instead of fleeing to safety, go and RUN to the room that has the fire and do the chicken dance. Then you have those annoying babies and the social services who take them away if you neglect them. You know, it's MY child, if I want to torture it, let me. It's just a game!

Chupperson Weird · « **Reply #39 on:** July 07, 2009, 11:07:47 AM »

frostbite's idea sounds fun to me. I don't like The Sims but I think exploring normal stuff after you beat the game would be fun. You can just start a new file, Bird Person.