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Author Topic: Competitive Pokémon  (Read 8869 times)

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2011, 03:09:52 AM »
There are viable Pokémon that prevent, nullify, or take advantage of sleep. Most sleep moves are so inaccurate that it may as well be legal, and everyone would start using a fast Safeguard more. And now there's stuff like Magic Coat, too. And ways to self-induce and take advantage of other status problems to avoid being affected by any other. I'm starting to wonder in what generation the sleep rule was made and whether anyone has seriously considered dropping it.

So I can't tell if you just think the regulations on playing Pokémon competitively are dumb, or if you really think playing it competitively at all is the dumb part. And do either make a difference on not playing competitively?

Which makes me wonder how I should describe how I play. I devise teams that are supposed to be hard to beat without regard to the rules or tiers, but if I just wanted to be unstoppable I'd go ahead and use Zapdos, Jirachi, Heatran, Mewtwo and Ho-Oh. I choose not to, but I'm not so scrubbish anymore and don't mind having to take down legends and pseudo-legends (Jim's mother****ing Blissey gives me a harder time anyway but I have some plans to punish it).

Guess I don't use them because I don't want to end up relying on them...
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2011, 08:25:37 AM »
chain grabs and stalling are banned from Smash Bros.
That must've been awfully recently, then, since I've seen tourney recordings from as late as December with people using Ice Climbers and Dedede for chaingrabbing.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

WarpRattler

  • Paid by the word
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2011, 01:11:28 PM »
Mainly I think ultra-traditional turn-based RPGs in general make for bad competitive games. Pokémon happens to be a readily-available example of why that's the case, and the stupid regulations and the fact that a tier system has to be enforced in high-level play (not the BP And Jim Hang Out At Each Other's Houses And Play Games League) for the game to be playable just back that up.

« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2011, 08:27:39 PM »
At this point in the service let us have a reading from the Good Book.

« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2011, 01:38:36 AM »
/thread

« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2011, 01:51:47 AM »
It only ended because the arguments are both sides consist entirely of this.

As a game that requires six friends, an HDTV, and skill, I can see why the majority of TMK is going to hate on it hard.

« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2011, 01:55:56 AM »
No they didn't.

« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2011, 02:11:38 AM »
This is what I gathered from going back and reviewing the entire thread:

People claiming Pokemon is a repetitive, tedious, time consuming process that provides a false sense of skill which isn't entirely dependent on the player's actual talent.

People claiming Pokemon is a deep investment that involves more than number crunching, such as creating strategies for dealing with entry hazards and highly used Pokemon.

Not once did I see anyone really concede to any point, nor did they agree with each other's assessment. That leads me to believe the people enjoying Pokemon will continue to enjoy it despite realizing how unbalanced and time consuming it is, while those who despise it will continue to pay attention to it and attempt to help those who play it realize it isn't really a well structured game at all.

As a game that requires six friends, an HDTV, and skill, I can see why the majority of TMK is going to hate on it hard.

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2011, 03:43:49 AM »
From my point of view it looks more like each side was more or less thinking "You know, you're right! ...

Well whatever"
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

WarpRattler

  • Paid by the word
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2011, 04:38:45 AM »
Pokemon is a repetitive, tedious, time consuming process
Already proven several times over.

provides a false sense of skill which isn't entirely dependent on the player's actual talent.
Also proven several times over, and it applies to nearly all strictly-turn-based games, not just Pokémon. We already had this discussion.

Pokemon ... involves more than number crunching
Right, it also involves pressing the A button a lot.

creating strategies for dealing with ... highly used Pokemon
If not for special rules and enforced tiers based on comparisons of unchanging sets of in-game numbers, "highly-used Pokémon" would be boring unstoppable parties like
Zapdos, Jirachi, Heatran, Mewtwo and Ho-Oh
bringing us back to the argument that the game is unplayable at a high level without a bunch of made-up rules. Even Marvel vs. Capcom 2, with its tiny amount of actually-viable characters at the high end, is more interesting than Pokémon multiplayer.

« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2011, 08:50:49 PM »
Pokémon is a terrible game to play competitively because, as stated, there are moves and Pokémon that are deemed unfair and are banned. There is no quality balancing, and the vast majority are useless outside single player, and plenty aren't even good there.

Now, calling it repetitive is subjective, some people don't take issue with the breeding and EV training the old fashioned way. During Gen III I sank into all of it, the full metagame experience. Boxes filled with mons that weren't the right nature or something. But I also played a lot on... Well, I can't remember the name of it, like Pokénet or something?  Anyway, it was an online battling program, and you could max out a team with which to fight. I was on that all the time, and while there were a lot of teams full of Kyogre/Groudon/Speed or Attack Deoxys/etc., there was plenty of expirementation with not-over powered. I'm not sure where I was going with this. Oh, repetitive. Yes. Basically it's only as repetitive as you make it and how much you want to play with ideas in game. I can see the argument that it can be painfully slow, but if you know what your looking for, you've cut a great deal of the issue off. Ramble ramble ramble.

As far as the actual battling, it's not all that much different from good competitve games. Let's compare it to other games with reasonably large competitive communities - Super Turbo, well Street Fighter in general, Smash Bros. Brawl and Melee., and meybe an FPS They all have a great deal going on under the hood that you don't really need to know to play - easy to pick up, difficult to master, they all require, at high level play, a knowledge of the moves at your disposal, your opponents disposal, what they (the opponent) are likely to do, how you should respond, the yomi idea that Sirlin has talked about a great deal. To say that no skill is needed in Pokémon is not necessarily wrong, it's more it doesn't need the same kind of skill you would use in SF or Smash or say, Counter-Strike. They involve a lot of muscle memory, timing, and knowing what to do in that sit. Pokémon Really only removes the muscle memory. And from my experiance, it's not the inability to pull of that last Shoryuuken or because you couldn't hit that Monkey Punch that caused the loss, but rather you did the wrong Move at the wrong time. What I am trying to say that if it's not the ability to do the move that matters, Pokémon could be a great competitive game. I mean, people still play chess, and you don't have to juggle bowling balls while blindfolded to castle.   

Negatively, Pokémon really runs into the problem of having only a small number of viable mons, and those only have a few movesets that you will ever see. And I say runs into a Problem like '100 mph headlong into wall' problem. They can't be beaten except by another of the high tier mons. There's a reason most every team, if Legendaries are banned, you'll end up seeing so many SkarmBliss, Weezing with Will-o-Wisp, or whatever super mons that have come from the last few, I haven't kept up to date as much. Or Fox in Melee, or Dedede/Snake/Meta in Brawl., Sentinal in MvC2, and it looks like Storm/Sent/Mags is where 3's heading again. And while OHKO moves are not bad, but in a game where dodges or blocks are based on rng, it's impossible because there will be someone to stack the numbers. Yeah, DK can pound you in the ground, then hit you with a bat, but there is still more you can do to counter it. Number based games aren't bad, OHKO aren't bad, putting them together leads to god tier or ban, niether is good.

Pokémon has many features going for it to be potentially a great competitive game, but falls apart with it's massive roster, poor, if any, balancing, and game mechanics that undermine the stratagy it could have. 
"We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special." Stephen Hawking

WarpRattler

  • Paid by the word
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2011, 12:13:33 AM »
Pokémon requires no skill whatsoever because skill and strategy are two very different things. Fighting games, RTS, and FPS all require both skill (you call it "muscle memory") and strategy. By their very nature, turn-based games - Pokémon, chess, Go, and so on* - do not require skill, and instead revolve around strategy. (To round things out, rhythm games are an example of games that only require skill - there's no strategy required when the premise of the game is "hit the corresponding buttons when the notes reach this line.")

OHKOs aren't inherently bad, to be sure (as I've mentioned before, I love Guilty Gear), but I don't know why they'd even be a concern in Pokémon. All of them have 30% accuracy against targets of the same level (which can't be boosted) and low PP, both of which should far outweigh "KO the target on hit." And you can always use Protect against them.

*Pokémon is nowhere near the level of chess or Go in terms of strategy. Pokémon is an abacus to chess's home computer. Go is Watson.

« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2011, 01:03:01 AM »
Yes, skill and stratagy are different concepts, and I think for future reference we should come up with a resonable definition for what Skill can pertain to.

I would classify Skill as the ability to assess the current situation (bad guy shooting you), determine what course of actions would give the most positive outcome (don't die, shoot bad guy), being able to execute it (aim at bad guy/ headshot), and to adjust your stratagy, both short and long term, to fit (keep not getting shot, keep shooting, win).

Putting aside all the other glaring problems with the competitive game, the actual battling only removes the problem of being able to execute each action. And you don't enter into a competition if you cannot execute accurately a vast majority of the attempts. And the same could be said of RTS, to an extent. There is more of time restraint, but actually executing an action is done with just a couple of clicks.

Again, Pokémon != good competitive game, but it's not due to lack of Skill. And I only mentioned one hits because they are one of the banned items. I should have been more general. 
"We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special." Stephen Hawking

WarpRattler

  • Paid by the word
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2011, 03:44:58 AM »
Assessment, planning, and adjustment are all strategy, and the actual execution is what requires skill.

There's one primary factor those three elements of strategy have in common that sets them apart from the sole element of skill: assessment, planning, and adjustment are all thinking, while execution is doing.

Look at rhythm games, which, as I previously stated, require only skill. Say I'm playing beatmania IIDX, and I start playing "Time to Air." What situation is there to assess? I'm playing "Time to Air"; it won't be any different from the last ten times I played it. What course of action would give me the most positive outcome? Be as accurate as possible, obviously - that's the entire premise of the game, so I don't even have to think about that. And what strategy is there to adjust? None, because there's no strategy actually involved. That leaves the execution - playing the song - as the only actual part of the game, and that's straight-up skill.

Executing a single action in an RTS might only be a couple of clicks, but you can't just select a cluster of units and tell them to go rape your opponent's base, unless you want to lose every game you play. You've got to have good micromanagement and macromanagement skills to do well at anything except low-level play; suddenly "a couple of clicks" become a feverish storm of mouseclicks and keystrokes, as you command your units to attack your opponent's expansion base, telling them exactly where to move to increase their efficiency, and at the same time queue up more units, structures, and research, and work on your own expansion, using hotkeys to rapidly jump between views of different spots on the map to keep an eye on everything at once. All of that's execution - skill. Meanwhile, things like knowing what units and structures to build and knowing how to react to various things going on around the map fall firmly into the realm of strategy.

Instead of describing anything related to fighting games I'm just going to link to this. That is skill, distilled to its purest form and shining as brilliantly as a newly-cut diamond.

Chess is a turn-based game, and doesn't involve skill because the only thing you do in chess in terms of execution is move pieces around the board, something most people can do as easily as they'd dial a phone or open a door. Instead, it requires a great deal of strategy to play well. Moreso for Go.

« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2011, 05:16:41 PM »
Okay, so I don't see us agreeing on what makes something a skill. I don't think of skill, in a broad, not-game-exclusive sense, as purely physical. Skill is the ability to see, think and act in a given situation. And I just don't think you are giving credit to the thought that goes into your every action, even if it's not at a concious level. 

As for the SF vid, Daigo's given interviews about that. He's said that it wasn't the first time he's done that, and he could do it with a couple of characters.

I want to start by saying that it was [darn] impressive, I'm sure we all agree on that.  

I'm assuming he did have a stratagy thought out when they chose their characters. He knew Chun Li's moves, her timing, the range, and the same for Ken's. But when in the middle of the fight, it's not his stratagy to have to perfectly block each hit from the super, he's just responding in the way that is best for the situation. He had to think to determine that it was the only way to win, and he had to time it just right for it to work, so that by the time his fingers actually hit the buttons, he was past it.

His stratagy was the overarching plan laid out on how he intended to win, and what to expect
His skill, his tactical ability, was knowing what each moment required from him, and doing it.  

... But yeah, how about that ExtremeSpeed Arcanine, huh? 
"We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special." Stephen Hawking

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