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Author Topic: Religion  (Read 70862 times)

Black Mage

  • HP 1018 MP 685
« Reply #150 on: May 23, 2003, 10:05:19 AM »
Well, well, someone finally stumbled upon this topic again. I was wondering how long it would take. ;p

 As anyone can read, I've posted my beliefs, countless times, so I'm sure you all know where I stand.

 Sapphira, I encourage you, and anyone else, to post their beliefs. Besides, that's what this is, a debate about religion, eh?

Edited by - Black Mage on 5/23/2003 10:24:03 AM

Sapphira

  • Inquiring
« Reply #151 on: May 23, 2003, 01:02:50 PM »
First of all, I would like to say, yes, I am a Christian. Since March 1994. I am currently non-denominational, and I hate all the segregation. Actually, I think I'm closest to being Northern Baptist, but that's beside the point.

Isn't it interesting how whenever anyone mentions the topic of "God" or "beliefs" or "Jesus," people get squeemish? ...Actually, I feel a bit woozy myself, because I'm putting myself on the line right now.

First of all, I would like to say to all of you skeptics out there, prepare to go down with a fight. I shall prove all of my points later. Until then, hopefully more people will come here. I will accept and challenge any argument against my beliefs.

--------------------
Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
"The surest way to happiness is to lose yourself in a cause greater than yourself."

Sapphira

  • Inquiring
« Reply #152 on: May 23, 2003, 01:35:19 PM »
Point 1:
"my favorite quote from our kind and loving and generous and caring God: my wrath will flare up, and i will kill you with the sword. and your own wives will be widows, and your children orphans."

"why does God let so many bad things happen
that's my question. no one can really answer it, but i'd like to hear your opinion"   --cable04

Think of it this way: We are bad, disobedient people. God love us TOO much to NOT do anything about it. There are consequenses for our actions, so God allows bad things to happen to us. This is called DISCIPLINE! --which is a GOOD thing (as much as I hate it.) He disciplines us to get us to grow, to teach us not continue our mistakes.

The Israelites disobeyed him, so they got punished. God only wants what's best for us. He gives us the freedom and choice to do what we want, but if we do something wrong, there WILL and SHOULD be consequenses for it. Look at it this way:

A child wants to play in the street. His dad says, "No." The kid gets mad and does it anyway. His dad sees him and punishes him. The kid WANTED to play in the street, but didn't SEE the implications it could have and what a stupid mistake it would be.

His father did, being wiser and looking out for our own safety. The kid could've gotten hit by a car. His dad was just protecting him by not allowing him to play in the strret, so he'd be safe. Disobeidence = punishment. If the dad had NOT punished the kid, what kind of a loving father would he be? He obviously wouldn't care that his son could get seriously hurt, which would actually ENCOURAGE the kid to CONTINUE his stupid desicions.

God is that same way; he's like that father and were like that kid. ...And *I* just wrote a parable. :)



--------------------
Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.

Edited by - Sapphira on 5/23/2003 12:53:09 PM
"The surest way to happiness is to lose yourself in a cause greater than yourself."

Sapphira

  • Inquiring
« Reply #153 on: May 23, 2003, 02:29:10 PM »
Oh yeah, sometimes God simply ALLOWS bad things to happen. Another li'l parable:

Mom's cooking in the kitchen. "Billy" says, "Mmm...what is that stuff...Smells SOOO good...
Mom: It's vanilla. You're not gonna like it.
Billy: Yes I will!! Please! Can I have some!?
Mom: You're NOT gonna like it!
Billy: Please, please, please?
Mom: Suit yourself.
*Billy takes a HUGE spoonful. As the liquid touches his toungue, his eyes widen in horror and disguist. He immediately spits it out and tries rubbing the taste from his poor tongue.*
Mom: I told you you wouldn't like it, but you didn't believe me.

That's what faith is. Trust that God knows what's best for you, like the mom did. Though some things may SEEM good, he knows what's NOT. Some people just have to learn it the hard way and suffer unnecessary pain.

--------------------
Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
"The surest way to happiness is to lose yourself in a cause greater than yourself."

« Reply #154 on: May 23, 2003, 04:45:14 PM »
I feel that your religion doesn't really matter. That it doesn't matter what you believe in, just as long as you believe.

The good- Gamecube
The bad- PS2
The ugly- X Box

Sapphira

  • Inquiring
« Reply #155 on: May 23, 2003, 05:50:12 PM »
I hate the label "religion." That sounds so rigid and cult-like, IMO. I prefer the term "faith."

I'm on a roll now, so I will continue my arguments.

Point 2:
“I'm an atheist, I'm too lazy and cynical to believe in any heavenly figures.” –Pyrasaur

Fryguy, Sanctus Yago, Ganbare Saturn, bandicootbuddy, Pyrasaur, and any other atheists, I truly feel sorry for you.  How could you NOT believe in God?! I have witnessed far too many strange, miraculous incidents to wonder how he could *possibly* NOT exist.

When my brother was born, he was having difficulty breathing properly. They put him in the special care ward (in which this 10 pound 10 ounce kid looked MASSIVE next to all the other babies, whom were mostly premees). Anyway, my dad went over there and noticed my brother’s face was turning blue. The nurses apparently weren’t paying that great of attention. If my dad had not noticed and brought it to the attention of the nurses, my brother may have died.  Coincidence? Luck? Or divine intervention?

When my brother was 3, we went to this park. It had the most AWESOME rocket-shaped slide. It was about 20-30 feet high, seriously.  Half of it was a closed-in tube, the other half opened. My brother, after going down it several times okay, went down again. But after he exited the tube part, he noticed how high up he was and panicked. He grabbed the sides of the slide to stop himself. This sudden force flipped him over the side of the slide, this 3-year-old now dangling over the edge, 10-15 feet up in the air.  I screamed for my dad. He didn’t make it in time. My brother landed in the woodchips below. Luckily, he only fractured his wrist. Had he not have placed his arm out during the fall, he could have died.  Luck? Or divine intervention?

Man, angels sure are watching over this kid!  A few weeks ago, my brother was at track and field. He was throwing one of those 8-pound metal balls (that didn’t sound right…), kinda like a discus, and went to retrieve it.  Meanwhile another kid (one who’s actually…mentally impaired AND malicious), decided to throw a metal ball while my brother’s still in the field. A friend screamed, “Look out!”
Quickly he ducked. The ball just BARELY grazed past his ear.  *1 INCH* closer, and that thing would’ve killed him.  Luck? Or divine intervention?

A few years ago (WOW! 4 years already!), my family was going on vacation to Maryland (we lived in Cali at the time.) Our flight was early in the morning, so we’d have get up around 4 AM. That night, my mom had a MAJOR medical problem and almost passed out because of it. Luckily she didn’t, but she said she felt she was starting to. Suffice it to say, we cancelled our flight and vacation. The next day, she was fine again, and has been ever since. Later, we found out that my mom’s best friend (who’s also MY best friend’s mom) had woken up that night around the same time and suddenly felt this REALLY strong intuition that she should pray for my mom. EXACT same time my mom almost passed out. That strange intuition and her prayer may have been what prevented anything serious from happening. If that wasn't God, I don’t know what it POSSIBLY could be. Coincidence? No way. …Wouldn’t it have been freakier still if us not going prevented something bad from happening to us…? We’ll never know.

Last incident.
A few weeks ago, I wrote on a little prayer card in my youth group that I may have found a way to help reach to other people, and I wanted them to pray to help me find a way to do that. Though I was quite vague, I was actually referring to this very board. Yesterday, I stumbled upon this thread. Coincidence? I think not.

Everything happens for a reason. To say there is no God takes more faith to believe than that there IS one.


--------------------
Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.

Edited by - Sapphira on 5/23/2003 4:58:53 PM
"The surest way to happiness is to lose yourself in a cause greater than yourself."

Insane Steve

  • Professional Cynic
« Reply #156 on: May 23, 2003, 10:14:47 PM »
Yes, add me to the list of devout aetheists. My problem is that I am too logic-minded to believe in some omniscient being.

Miracle events are best explained by certain undefinable laws of physics. Like, when your brother ducked, this is due to a certain reaction speed. His instinct is partly responisble, as well.

When your brother was first born, his dad, due to a certain paternal instinct, watched over his kid. This slide incident is also due to instinct.

That prayer for your mom is a freaky coincidence. Really freaky, actually. I mean, that's amazing. The thread? Well... most internet message boards have a religion thread. Again, coincidence.

Now, my side of the story: The aetheist's view to religion:

Fallacy #1: If God exists, why does He make individuals who don't believe in Him?

Think about that for a second. I was once religious. I went to CCD (Can't remember what that stands for and what religion that is) until about 6th or 7th grade. All we really did there was play Hangman and recite plays. I deemed it a waste of time. My mom agreed. I stopped going to church some 6 years ago, when my Uncle Joe died in his thirties of Cystic Fibrosis. After that, I just dropped religion. I was, just a few months ago, an agnostic. A few things happened, and voila! I'm now aetheist. I'll leave that to your imaginaton.

Fallacy #2: If there is a God, why does He let bad things happen?

Seriously, there is a deeper side to this. They say God allows bad things to happen because people are naturally sinful. Now, the corilary to this is: Why did God make us bad in the first place? Think about that for a second. If there was a God, and if He did watch over us all, why were we made flawed in the first place?

Fallacy #3: God allows miracles to occur. Why would He ever put us in a position where miracles are necessary, anyways?

This one interests me in a way. I mean, God allows us to wander into a perilous situation. Sometimes He allows these indviduals to live. Sometimes, no. That would mean God would have to see some people's follies and not others. And what about those people who don't even get a chance to live? Babies who die mere hours after birth. Babies who are killed by their parents for being "undesirable"? Babies who are killed before birth by people who kill their mother? Seriously, the ratio of miracles to bad events is just too great for me to believe. That, and I don't witness too many miracles. I can kind of see why you are religious; you've experienced miracles. Me? All I've seen is me not being treated accordng to my sbilities. No miracle there.

Fallacy #4: How was the universe created?

If I recall correctly, The Bible stated the the Earth was made around 4000 BC. However, science has discoved rocks created millions of years ago. Explain. Plus, according to The Bible, the Earth and all its creatures were created in 7 days. However, it is said that many living things came into existance millions of years before the humans began existance (Or, the way I see it, "evolved"). That's just a bit longer than 7 days.

Coralary of Fallacy #4: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Ah yes, this infamous question. An old childhood thought provoker. Actually, I figured it out. It actually asks: Are you a Creationist or an Evolutionist?

If you think the chicken came first, you believe that the chicked was created, most likely by God, and then it layed eggs, and the race of chickens began. Thus, you are a Creationist.

If you think the egg came first (like me), you believe that the chicken evolved from egg-laying reptiles. Thus, the chicken was not created, moreso evolved. Thus, you would be an Evolutionist.

Not an argument, just an interesting point.

There. The four major fallacies I see with religion. I have more minor ones, but those are the big four. I'd like to see some replies. This looks like it is going to be a nice, fun, intelligent discussion. Something I can't have at school. Bleh.

Congratulations! You have just been blessed by the wisdom of Steve.
~I.S.~

« Reply #157 on: May 23, 2003, 11:09:49 PM »
Im a nothing.But my god on rs is Zamorak.(rs is an online game)

"One may as well hang for a stolen sheep as for a stolen lamb"
Ankle,Tingle younger brother,The Wind Waker
Find your inner monkey.

Luigison

  • Old Person™
« Reply #158 on: May 23, 2003, 11:22:09 PM »
I believe the egg came first and am an evolutionist.  The evidence for evolution is staggering.  (No, humans did NOT evolve from monkeys.)

I am also a non-denominational creationist.  Quantum theory is even based on the fact that nothing (including the creation of the universe) happens unless there is a consciousness there to observe it.  Despite what Einstein said, I believe that God does in a way play dice with the universe.  The idea that God or Truth or unqualified Wholeness would in any way require order or discipline is simply unreasonable and not true. Nothing could ever be, ultimately, more chaotic than God's Will.

The way I see it, religion is based on faith whereas science is based on experimentation.

They are based on totally different ways of viewing the world, so I see neither correlation nor disagreement between the two.  You either believe in religion or you don't.  We shouldn't try to prove or disprove it because it is not based on proof; science is.  That is not to say the science is infallible.  Science is evolving.

I believe the Bible and all religious writings are the works of humans even if God may have inspired them.  Therefore, I conclude that the Bible is not perfect.  The creation story of Adam and Eve to me is another of the Bible's parables and that the age of the Earth is also distorted because of human error or simplicity in the stories.

Life arose as the result of an initial unplanned, chance event, through the hand of science, followed by a deliberate, planned event through the hand of God.


The folling gives a theory that is close to my own.

A QUANTUM GOD?   by Quittenton, Richard

·   Professor Stephen Hawking closes his famous best seller "A Brief History of Time" with the queries, "why does the universe go to all the bother of existing" and "who created Him (God)". These are by far the most important questions facing humanity because our whole philosophical foundation rests on the answers.
·   If the universe exists because of a random accident there can be no ultimate reason for our existence. Thus even if we colonized the entire universe we would only be doing what termites do, expand the colony and propagate the species. We would simply be termites of a higher order.
·   We cannot "prove" scientifically whether the universe was created or not, or whether a creating God exists or not. The best we can do is to examine what scientific evidence we have and decide where is the most likely probabilities. Science tells us now that our universe is incredibly fine-tuned. There are some 30 or 40 physical variables governing the make-up of matter, which must be almost exactly what they are now for our universe to exist in its present form. For example, if the force of gravity were only a tiny bit different, the universe would have either collapsed upon itself long ago, or expanded so rapidly that no galaxies could exist. There would only be wisps of radiation hurtling through space. If the speed of light were only a tiny bit different, the sun would be either too hot or too cold for life to exist on Earth. If the forces holding the atoms together were only a tiny bit different there could be no hydrogen or suns, which bring life to the universe. The list goes on.
·   Science also tells us that in a truly random creation there is no known reason why all these variables should have the values they have. The probability is that they would be vastly different. It would be as if there were a monstrous slot machine with 30 slots, and with the first and only pull on the lever all 30 variables fell precisely into the right slots with all the right values. The probability of this happening is so low that many cosmologists now believe it is more likely that the universe was not an accident, but must have been created.
·   But how could this be? Science believes that primordial space was a vacuum and hence inherently unstable. Then terrestrial quantum mechanics predict that matter can accumulate in this vacuum, and that this matter eventually exploded in a big bang to create the universe through one mechanism or another. These "terrestrial" quantum mechanics exist only because we exist. We have no idea whatsoever what really existed before the big bang. We now enter the area of "possibilities", not probabilities.
·   Let us speculate that matter did arise in the vacuum of primordial space, perhaps slowly over infinite eons. Let us speculate also that this matter was some form of energy, in a form we might or might not recognize. We do know already that energy can exist in many, many different forms, thermal energy, kinetic energy, acoustical energy, light energy, electrical energy, radioactive energy, magnetic energy, gravitational energy, and perhaps psychic energy, as well as other forms we have not yet detected. We know too that energy flows readily from one form to another. Thus electrical energy becomes thermal energy when passed through an electrical heating element. Thermal energy becomes kinetic energy when used to boil water to expand steam through a turbine. Kinetic energy regenerates electrical energy when the turbine drives an electrical generator. Finally we know that energy, at least as we know it, and mass are interconvertible, one into the other, through Einstein's famous equation, the equation of the atomic bomb.
·   We can speculate therefore that matter accumulated in primordial space in some form of energy, a speculation based on terrestrial quantum mechanics. We can speculate further that this energy slowly clumped together, through some mechanism totally foreign to our knowledge of terrestrial physics. We do know that at the elemental level, life is made up of energy, not proteins or vitamins or whatever, just minuscule packets of energy. We know too that energy, as in the laser, can self organize into a pattern. Some scientists believe also that life arose on Earth through the chance combination of elemental particles. It is not unreasonable therefore to speculate that the clumping energy in primordial space slowly self organized into a life form, a life form of prodigious power, and of a nature totally foreign to our understanding of life. We know this life form as God. This is thus one possible origin of God, for God must have an origin too, as Stephen Hawking most aptly noted.
·   But why does the universe exist, as Hawking also asked. If the universe was created, as now appears most probable, it would have been an enormous, monstrous task. The total matter in the universe is so large as to be beyond comprehension. To create this huge amount, and to balance it so finely that it had to permit the emergence of life is far, far beyond human understanding. Clearly the universe does not exist solely for humanity. It is far too big for that. Our own galaxy would have been sufficient. Why the billions of other galaxies? The sheer immensity of this task is so enormous that there must have been a reason of comparable immensity to warrant the effort. One possible reason of such immensity is survival.
·   We know that all forms of energy slowly degrade, gradually becoming entropy, the state from which no work can be obtained. Thus hot objects cool, losing thermal energy. Moving objects slow down, losing kinetic energy, and so on. It might be therefore that the energy of God was degrading, even if only ever so slowly, over untold and continuing lengthy eons. If this were the case, God would be slowly dying as God's energy gradually converted into entropy. If this was the situation it is at once obvious, and indeed inevitable, that any such sentient life form with the innate power to create a universe, would evolve some Plan to ensure its survival.
·   The end object of any such Plan must be the generation of new energy, energy over and above that invested in the Plan itself. This is critical, otherwise the energy is simply being recycled, and thus is not a net gain to the life form behind the Plan.
·   Science accepts antimatter and positive and negative energy. It can be postulated therefore that the Plan required the provision of an environment where positive or negative energy could be produced in some manner that did not involve the conversion of mass into energy, as that would be recycling. This environment might thus permit the evolution of life forms with the ability to generate a pulse of positive or negative energy through some conscious act of will alone, a pulse of psychic energy. The Plan would be completed with the flow of the positive energy to God on the death of the life form.
·   We know this positive energy as our soul.
·   At death the soul screens itself in effect, going into the great energy pool of God if it is positive enough. Thus it would flow through the cosmos as a part of this pool, part of God. Even now souls from all over the universe must be going into this big pool. Recently new planets have been discovered in space and since there are billions of suns besides ours there must be billions of planets besides ours. It would be the mission of the dominant life form on all such planets to develop a soul. Thus while the energy of a single soul may well be infinitesimal, the collective energy from all the souls across he vast universe, and over the eons the universe will survive must be more than enough to justify the monstrous effort. Otherwise why do it?
·   It is clear this effort is relatively recent. Our universe is only some 16 billion years old. What was going on in those untold eons before the emergence of the universe? Why is our universe so young? Evidently the evolution of God and the development of the Plan was a very slow process indeed.
·   The human brain has been developing over thousands of years. It was during this ongoing development that the soul must have emerged, as the psychic link with God. It would have emerged as the consequence of the development of free will, the conscious ability to tell right from wrong, good from evil.
·   It is the decision to activate free will which generates the psychic energy pulse. During life, thought and actions are all funneled through the brain. These mold the psychic energy, making it more positive with good thoughts and actions and more negative with evil ones. Thus at death the soul, which has stored up this psychic energy, has acquired a definite energy pattern. If this is sufficiently positive, it evidently meshes with the energy pattern of God, and so flows automatically into the energy of God, and so increases this energy pool by the energy content of that soul.
·   The need for free will to generate an energy form akin to God is so important for humanity that the event has been handed down in allegorical form, in the story of Adam and Eve, where Eve exercised her free will in the taking of the forbidden fruit.
·   It is also evident that in possessing an energy form akin to that of God, man is indeed "Made in the Image of God", a pure energy form. The concept of energy is a very recent one, going back only some 250 years the first steam engine. It would have been utterly meaningless for Moses, or Jesus, or Mohammed to talk about "energy", so they spoke of the Father, in a male-dominated society. It is significant now that God appeared to Abraham and Moses and Paul as fire and light, pure energy forms. So too is the entry of God into those at Pentecost as "Tongues of Fire".
·   Thus this may be why Jesus could tell his disciples with confidence, shortly before he was taken away to be crucified, as reported by John: "On that day you will understand that I am IN my Father and you IN me and I IN you".
·   It may be that here Jesus was trying to tell them, before anyone had ever heard of anything called "energy", that the Father was a pool of living sentient energy and that He, Jesus was in this pool and that they would be in this pool too.
·   As a pure energy form, it is evident that God has no gender. God is neither he, she, nor it. Obviously therefore it is just as fitting for a woman to serve God as a priest as for a man. In fact it is more fitting, since on the average, women offer more psychic energy of the soul than do men, as a glance into the churches, temples and prisons of any nation will confirm. There are more women than men in churches and temples, and more men than women in prisons.
·   Thus if the Book of Genesis were being written today, in the knowledge of today, it might begin:
o   "In the Beginning, God fixed the Numbers of Creation. God fixed two numbers, the Strong Nuclear Force, and the Weak Nuclear Force, to operate at the smallest level of existence, the level of the nucleus of the atom; and a third Number, the Force of Gravity to operate at the largest level, the level of planets, stars and galaxies. Then God released enough of God's own energy to provide the substance of the universe, in a great fiery explosion. And God watched as the first two Numbers formed this substance into gases which could burn to provide light and heat for eons; and as the third Number formed these gases into burning suns with planets of the right size and distance from these suns, so that life could emerge on these planets. And some of this life evolved and formed a brain that could form fields of energy. God knew that some of these brains would continue to evolve, until they formed an energy field, which contained a soul, with an energy field, which could merge with the great energy field of God, through the passage of the energy of this soul at death into God's field of energy. And this passage was the ultimate objective of God's Plan, for God wanted the energy of souls. God watched this evolution and saw that it was good. Then God rested. God fixed other Numbers of Creation also, but these three numbers are recorded here so that you might understand the simplicity, the wondrous order and the purpose of the Act of Creation by God".
·   This then is the Destiny of Humanity, our reason for existence, to develop a soul that can merge with God and flow throughout the cosmos as a living, sentient field, supporting this and other universes unto eternity.
·   In summary, this hypothesis states that God arose out of a pool of primordial energy generated in the unstable vacuum of the cosmos by a random quantum fluctuation; and that God then released enough of God's own energy to create the universe with conditions fixed in advance so that life with souls would evolve, with the energy of souls eventually flowing into the energy field of God, to augment this field.
·   Thus life is the result of an initial unplanned, chance event, from the hand of science, followed by a deliberate, planned event, from the hand of God.
·   In this concept then, there is no gap at all between science and religion, only a solid bridge.
“Evolution has shaped us with perceptions that allow us to survive. But part of that involves hiding from us the stuff we don’t need to know."

Sapphira

  • Inquiring
« Reply #159 on: May 23, 2003, 11:30:10 PM »
WOW. I will answer all your questions, Steve, but it will take a while. Being that they're practically essays...  I'll answer them one at a time.

"Fallacy #4: How was the universe created?

"If I recall correctly, The Bible stated the the Earth was made around 4000 BC. However, science has discoved rocks created millions of years ago. Explain. Plus, according to The Bible, the Earth and all its creatures were created in 7 days. However, it is said that many living things came into existance millions of years before the humans began existance (Or, the way I see it, "evolved"). That's just a bit longer than 7 days."

The Bible NEVER has said how old the earth is. Only how long HUMANS have been on the earth. People ASSUME that it’s around that old. The Bible says that God created the earth in 6 days (he rested on the 7th), but it ALSO says that to God “a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day.”

In other words, time is irrelevant to God. He’s not bounded by time. This is how he always existed and always will exist. It is also how he knows everything that ever happened and everything that WILL ever happen. I guess you could say he’s in the 5th dimension (time and space), while we’re in the 3rd. We can NEVER entirely comprehend that, but we CAN believe it. Faith, my friend. For example, a flat, two dimensional drawing is bound by length and width. It cannot even comprehend what depth is, it just has to believe that other things are not bound by it.

So it could’ve actually taken millions and millions of years for the earth to be created. Another thing: science cannot prove evolution, but it HAS proven the order in which things came into existence. In order for a “community” to form, first there is sunlight and water.  Then plants are able to grow. Eventually, creatures find the place inhabitable and are able to live there.  The oldest fossils are fish and birds. Then animals of the land. Lastly, humans. Those all coincide COMEPLETELY with the order of the “days” God created each on.


--------------------
Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
"The surest way to happiness is to lose yourself in a cause greater than yourself."

Insane Steve

  • Professional Cynic
« Reply #160 on: May 24, 2003, 06:54:27 PM »
Yes, I realised there that I butchered the word "Corallary" twice in that last post. Hmmm...

Anyways, there are people in the world (I think they are called "fundamentalists") who believe everything The Bible says literally. I mean, I know that The Bible has some metaphorical things in it you just can't take seriously.

But one must remember: The Bible was not written by God. It was written by another human. They could very well have known about the order of existance. They place this in The Bible in that order... science proves it again, and it looks credible. the person who wrote The Bible was very smart there. Of course, who knows? I might be wrong. I doubt it, though.

Here's another fallacy for you:

Fallacy #5: How exactly do many of the "miraculous" events from the Bible occur, anyways?

Here's a few examples...

In one story, a person is turned intoa a pillar of salt. Let's examine this for a second:

Salt = NaCl (Sodium Chloride)
Humans = Mostly organic compounds (I.E., they contain Carbon)

Now, how does ANY human go from organic coumpounds to entirely Sodium and Chlorine? You know how hard it is to turn Carbon into Chlorine or Sodium? And what about the other by-products of the reaction? It makes no sense.

In another story, Jesus feeds a whole mass of people on 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish (Or was it the other way around?). Now... let's examine this for a second.

Given an average size loaf of bread (Sliced into 20 pieces), and a large (5 pound) fish, and assuming that a "mass" of people is about 1000, This would leave about 1/10th of a slice of bread and 1/100 lb of fish per person. How can you fill someone with 1/10 a slice of bread and 1/100 lb of fish? I just cannot see how this is.

All of these occurences are flat out impossible by the laws of science.

I mean, yes, some of the ideas in relgion are feasible, but there's just too many dubious things I see to believe in God or a religion. I think far too scientifically.

Congratulations! You have just been blessed by the wisdom of Steve.
~I.S.~

Sapphira

  • Inquiring
« Reply #161 on: May 24, 2003, 07:35:20 PM »
Some things NO ONE will understand. That's why he's God and we're not. His knowledge is FAR beyond even the greatest minds to even exist--put together! The Bible also says, "With God, *ALL* things are possible." (I emphasized "all.")

While these miracles are IMPOSSIBLE for PEOPLE to do, God is capable of ANYTHING--and EVERYTHING. Think about it this way.

Every single atom that makes up every little cell that makes every tissue that makes every organ that makes up the human body--how PERFECTLY everything inside our bodies works together--your brain that sends signals to your nerves and veins, allowing your heart to pump blood, the 5 senses. Think of how COMPLEX *EVERYTHING* is! And think of EVERY *SINGLE* being on this planet whom ever existed, every animal, plant...how everything is able to work perfectly.

That animals breath oxygen and give carbon dioxide...that plants are use carbon dioxide and give oxygen... Our planet is PERFECTLY placed from the sun to sustain life... It's AMAZING! How is THAT possible to happen, may I ask? That everything complements itself so eventually it all balances out--"communities" (the environment and all that's in it.)

I mean, HOW likely is THAT?! To say that the creation of the universe was an accident?! "Accidents" can not be so refined and perfect. SOMEONE *HAD* to create it.

If God is capable of ALL THAT, how hard could it POSSIBLY be to turn a person into salt? He formed the universe--every person, every molecule--out of NOTHING--from SCRATCH! Turning water to wine or feeding 5000 is NOTHING compared to that!

I mean, to him, that's like taking water and turning it into ice!

Another question for you:
While it may seem impossible for a human to be transformed into salt, how then is it possible for, say, a soda float to turn into energy our bodies to use in order to function? Sugar turns to starch, etc. until it's become something our cells can use.

It's HIGHLY complex! We are STILL trying to figure out how everything works and why. I don't UNDERSTAND *HOW* my digestive system works, and I don't even *NEED* to know HOW it works. But I DO know that if I eat a soda float, it'll digest and the energy will be used to sustain the functions of my body. That's what faith is.

I know that food transforms into energy for my body to use, so why should it be so hard to believe that a person can transform into salt?

A few hundred years ago, people believed that maggots came from meat. Only until later did they discover they were wrong. Although we are MUCH further along than them, we STILL do not know everything, nor will we ever. Why is it so hard to accept something we cannot comprehend? Just because we can't comprehend it, does that mean it can't possibly be true?

--------------------
Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
"The surest way to happiness is to lose yourself in a cause greater than yourself."

Insane Steve

  • Professional Cynic
« Reply #162 on: May 24, 2003, 08:31:29 PM »
Ok here.... *Pulls down large scientificy flipdown chart with chemical and biological principles on it*

How do humans breathe oxygen and use it, and exhale Carbon dioxide?

Well... First, the Oxygen enters our body, were it goes into the bloodstream and binds to the hemoglobin in our red blood cells. Next, it travels throughout the body, where it goes to where it is used for...

The Krebs (? -- I can't remember if this is what its called. I haven't had biology in a year) Cycle. Essentally, this is where the Oxygen in broken up, and bginds with a chemical called adenalyne triphospate (ATP). I'll explain the importance of this compound later. After binding, and through a cyclic sequence of reactions, 2 ATP molecules become I think 37, and the cycle continues with other ATP molecules and oxygen. The major by-product of this is Carbon Dioxide, which is exhaled as a waste product.

Now, about that soda float. This float is broken down, via a sequence of chemical reactions, to the basic sugars and starches, which are broken down again into glucose, one of the major components of the Krebs (?) Cycle. That is where the carbon comes from in the carbon dioxide. (Glucose = C6H12O6) Along with the ATP formed... THAT is how the body maintains energy.

The plants, on the other hand, have radically different energy formation methods. They use something called the Calvin Cycle to turn the CO2 it gets from the air into O2 molecules somewhat like Humans use the Krebs (?) Cycle to turn O2 into CO2.

This occured due to a certain law of science which really hasn't been discovered yet. Because conditions allowed for a certain group of organisms to exist, they did.

And the Earth happens to be the perfect place to support life due to freak chance. Think of how big the universe is. When it expanded, seing how big it is, the laws of chance state that at least one planet MUST be that perfect distance from a star. It's just all probability.

Now, about those miracles. Here's where the chemical chart comes in.

About that person who was turned into salt. Let's view the respective locations of Sodium, Chlorine, and Carbon on the Periodic table.

Carbon in the 2nd period, Group 4A. It has 4 valence electrons and 2 electron shells.

Sodium is in the 3rd period, Group 3A. It has 3 shells and one valence electron.

So, you're telling me that there's some being that's just going to be able to add 5 elcetrons and protons to a person's chemical makeup? And I haven't seen this being?

Chlorine is even less believable. It in the 3rd period, Group 7A. 7 Valence electrons.

So there's a being who can add a whole shell and 3 extra electrons? And 11 protons? And I haven't seen this being.

And I haven't accounted for Other compounds in a human besides Carbon. I can't see the laws of science being bended this blatantly by some being I've never seen.

And the fish and bread facade. It has been proven that matter cannot come from non-matter. You, you're saying fish and bread just kind of come from nowhere? You're saying there's a being that can do all these illogical things?

I'm sorry, and no offense to any religious people out there, but to me, believing in God is like saying that 1+1=3. There's just to much wrong with it to make sense to me.

Congratulations! You have just been blessed by the wisdom of Steve.
~I.S.~

Sapphira

  • Inquiring
« Reply #163 on: May 24, 2003, 09:31:25 PM »
*Shakes head* Sigh...

We can explain how the digestive system works because we've figured it out.
We can explain how breathing works beause we've figured it out.
We can explain how plants convert energy because we've figured it out.

We CAN'T explain these other things because we HAVEN'T been able to figure it out. ...Yet.

a few hundred years ago, we could NOT explain how those three things I mentioned above work because we had NOT FIGURED it out THEN! But then we did. So you're saying that if we HAVEN'T figured something out yet, then it CAN'T POSSIBLY be true?

I'm certainly glad scientists didn't have this attitude, or else we still wouldn't know what we do today.

If we don't understand how the digestive system works, does that mean it doesn't exist? Ha! Then why bother eating!?

If we don't understand how we breathe, does that mean breathing does not exist?

Not only does that sound close-minded, but quite illogical.

Another point. You cannot see HOW oxygen is converted into carbon dioxide, yet you believe that. You have not seen 100 billion dollars, yet you believe it exists. You have never met George Washington, yet you believe he existed. You cannot see how electricity converts into heat, yet you believe it does. You believe all these things in which you cannot see, yet you do not believe in God because you can't see HIM.  Please explain this to me.

Here are yet some more interesting "coincidences," as you would say.

My mom suddenly felt this IMMEDIATE need to pray for her friend, so she did. Later, we found out her family was on a ski trip. At the EXACT same time, this friend, while skiing, had a major accident and slammed into a tree.  She only had a concussion and a broken leg (I think). Had it not been for my mom's sudden intuition to pray for her, she could have suffered MAJOR injuries, or even been killed. She is now perfectly fine, as is this never happened.

Here is ANOTHER example, this time involving me, and VERY, VERY recent. As you may know, I have been suffering from depression and unknown illnesses. This had been going on for months, which is why had had to drop-pass this school year. Having to repeat my grade and not be in the class I had been in all my life--'04, and not getting to be with my friends at school was even more devastating, only adding to my depression. About a month ago, this huge depressive burden suddenly felt lifted from me. I no longer felt depressed; I no longer felt sick. It wasn't the medicine--that had consistantly not been working. Later I found out that that earlier that VERY WEEK, maybe even DAY, my parents and their small Bible Study group prayed MAJORLY for me--that this depression and sickness would end and I'd feel at peace again. That is exactly what happened. If it weren't for that prayer, and all these other people--friends, family, etc.,--praying for me also, I still may be depressed and ill today.

That's THREE seperate incidents in my life which a miracle happened through PRAYER. *THREE* What are the odds that THREE *FREAKY* miraculous events taking place in *MY* life would be a "Freaky coincidence"?!

--------------------
Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
"The surest way to happiness is to lose yourself in a cause greater than yourself."

Insane Steve

  • Professional Cynic
« Reply #164 on: May 24, 2003, 09:56:46 PM »
Well then. I honestly don't understand HOW all these miracles happen to you. I mean, someone prays to something that may not exist, and then something good suddenly happens. I just don't understand that.

And then there's me. I don't think anything really fortunate has happened to me. Yet. Excluding that mathematical knowledge and other basic intelligence, which were not given to me by God, but rather by genetics.

Anyways, Here's the differences between believing all those other things you mentioned and believing in God.

Oxygen-CO2: It's been proven by science. I mean modern scientists are curious about these things, and care for progress unlike back 500 years ago. I've read it in biology texts. Many of them. Everything makes sense to me there. The laws of science are fufilled in every step.

100 billion dollars: I shall prove that $100B exists by induction. First, I prove that one dollar exists by pulling a dollar out of my wallet. Then, I'll prove that k dollars exists. I'll take all the money out of my wallet, and call that k dollars. Then, I'll prove that k+1 dollars exist: I get a dollar from the drawer upstairs and add it to my pile. The induction is complete. k dollars exists, k+1 dollars exists, (k+1)+1 dollars exists, and so on. Eventually you hit 100 billion dollars.

George Washington: There have been so many history texts regarding old George. Of course, there are also many texts regarding God as well. The difference: none of the texts that talk about George Washington show him doing things that defy proven laws of physics/chemistry/biology. As I said before, it is impossible, due to the laws of Chemistry, to turn non-fish into fish. And turning a human into salt is an extremely time-consuming and costly process, not instantaneous like The Bible says. God does things that defy written laws of chemistry. George Washington didn't.

Heat to Electricity: See the O2-CO2 description.

The main reason I don't believe in God is not because I can't see Him, it is because I cannot believe that the things He has supposedly done even can be done. I'd like to see someone pull fish out of midair. I really would. Then I'd believe.

Of course, I really don't have anything to say about those miracles. Really. That's just too amazing to be explained. Almost freaky. I really can't come up with anything that isn't insulting. (Or, actually, I can't come up with anything PERIOD.)

Of course, I don't pray for anything, being aetheist. I really don't have experiences with praying and then having something good happen.

This really has become an intelligent conversation. Yay. I haven't seen too many of those where I live.

Congratulations! You have just been blessed by the wisdom of Steve.
~I.S.~

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