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Messages - CrossEyed7

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Forum Games / Re: The Pointless Topic!

« on: June 19, 2008, 07:46:25 PM »

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Not at the Dinner Table / Re: Abortion

« on: June 19, 2008, 07:44:09 PM »

I completely support abortion at any time for any reason, IF what is inside the womb is not a person. However, science and philosophy clearly indicate that it is. It's alive; otherwise you couldn't talk about killing it, and it's genetically a human; what other species could it be? There are only five differences between an unborn human and me, and none of them make it more right to kill them.

- Size: The baby is obviously a lot smaller than me, but murderers don't get reduced sentences for killing shorter people.
- Level of Development: The baby is less developed than me, physically and mentally, but no sane person thinks it's more right to kill a 2-year-old than a 40-year-old. (Most people would actually think it's worse)
- Environment: I'm in a house, the fetus is in a person. But we've pretty much established by now that whether or not you're a person doesn't have anything to do with where you live.
- Dependency: The baby relies completely on its mother while in the womb. But it's not like it stops being dependent once it's born. It still needs food, clothes, and shelter. In fact, it doesn't really stop being dependent until it's old enough to get a job of its own. Besides, we don't kill people who are dependent on dialysis machines (yet).
- Consciousness: Before a certain point, the fetus is (probably) not conscious. This isn't a good justification, any more than it would be right for you to kill me in my sleep. Besides, we can't tell 100% whether they're conscious or not, and it would be wise to err to caution.

If the fetus is as much a person as I am, then abortion is the same as murder, and all pro-choice arguments -- including appeals to emotion and ad hominem arguments (i.e., "You're a man, so you can't say anything") -- fall completely apart. If, on the other hand, the fetus is sufficiently less of a person than I am to justify killing it, that opens the door to killing any other living humans that are seen as useless.

Also,

Quote from: MaxVance on June 19, 2008, 06:44:12 PM

When it comes to moral issues like this, I ask myself: "How does it affect me?" Abortion doesn't, so I don't care what women do.

Quote from: Martin Niemöller

When the Nazis came for the communists, I remained silent; I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats, I remained silent; I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists, I did not speak out; I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews, I remained silent; I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.

If unborn humans are people, their rights must be defended.

In case anyone thinks the quote means I'm comparing pro-choicers to Nazis... At the risk of being completely misinterpreted, I think we demonize Hitler too much. Not in that we should be nicer to him; he is pretty much the pinnacle of human evil so far; but I think we just treat him like Satan incarnate and forget that he started from the same place as us. You and I are every bit as capable of that kind of evil, and far worse, if left to our own devices, and we need to be more aware of that.

And yeah, I know, Godwin's Law.

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