Homosexuality and Same-Sex Marriage

[Turtlekid1]

I will say this once more.  Homosexuality is an inclination.  You can either give in to it or not.  You have a choice about it like everything else in life.

[Captain Jim]

Funny. That's what all the people at my church say. And, still funny, I don't buy it, TurtleKid. I don't buy it one bit.
Have you ever talked to a gay person, Turtlekid? I have. And you know what they told me? They told me they were born that way. Another fun one. One of those people at my church has a gay son. Said the same thing.

You can tell me that it's a temptation until you're blue in the face, TurtleKid. But I'm still not going to buy it.

Four Cents.

[CrossEyed7]

Most homosexuals don't CHOOSE to be that way. It's just how they are.

Where's the proof? Anecdotal evidence doesn't count. Show scientific proof that some people just have to be gay. If all you have is people who say they feel like they were born that way, that could just as well support Turtlekid's argument as yours, probably more. It just means it's a really strong temptation.

[Chupperson Weird]

As my previous post said, look at black people.  Look at hispanic people. 

They'll just keep wanting a bigger slice of the pie.

I think I have a bigger problem with this than most of the thread. It reeks of even more wrong thinking and misanthropy to people who are the same as you.

CrossEyed, I'd cite the science if I knew where to cite, but yes, there is a difference in gay people's brains compared to straight people. You can not change it.

[BP]

The government needs to uphold morality.

1. It's only immoral by the Bible. Separation of church and state. There is no national religion because we aren't a bunch of witch-burning puritans. Bringing religion into a political discussion is instantaneous failure in my book. Despite any religion I may follow, I think politics from an atheistic point of view because that's how our country was built. With freedom in mind.

2. No they don't. The government doesn't tell me not to lie to my parents. The government doesn't tell me not to swear to my peers. The government doesn't tell me not to flip off bad drivers. I don't do any of those things because I believe they're all crude and I have some amount of self-control.

3. Now, your orientation, like any other like or dislike (and in a more dark zone, fetish), you can't choose or fight. I've tried to force myself to like things before. Coffee. The kinds of music my sister likes (she was the one trying though, but I tried for her). Green beans. When Pokémon went out of style "because we all grew out of it," I tried to stop liking it. Couldn't. Didn't play for a long time but eventually came back. Drug or alcohol addictions can be overcome, but notice the difficulty. And it's not forcing yourself to stop liking it so much as forcing yourself away from it. This is all anecdotal evidence, though. Go ahead and find those sources, Chup.

4. Again you are failing to answer my question (because there is no answer to "how does homosexuality hurt other people" except for "it does not.") Likes and dislikes that hurt people can be outlawed--some people like to shoot people. Some people don't like to tell the truth in court. These result in pain for others. Love lives are very different. You see two guys. Big deal. You see two guys holding hands. OKAY NOW IT'S TIME FOR GOVERNING. But why? Were there guns in their other hands? I mean, there are things people are allowed to do in public that DO hurt others. Smoking is still legal.

[ShadowBrain]

If being gay is an inclination, then I guess being "straight" is too.

Da Vinci was gay. Put that in your grail and drink it.

[Chupperson Weird]

So was Tchaikovsky. And a lot of other people.

[BP]

You know what's also funny...

"It's a choice. That's why we can't have it."

Let freedom ring!

...Man I need to stay away from this board. I pretend I've never been here when I'm not here.

[CrossEyed7]

CrossEyed, I'd cite the science if I knew where to cite, but yes, there is a difference in gay people's brains compared to straight people. You can not change it.

So just like the evidence for evolution in the "Religon" thread, we just take somebody's word that they saw it somewhere? Not to mention that your description sounds suspiciously like correlation implying causation.

Also, I'm rather surprised this hasn't been brought up yet. (Here's their Wikipedia article, for your convenience)

[ShadowBrain]

Well, when you put it scientifically, being gay is a "choice"... but it's a purely biological one. I mean, with enough medication, surgery, and/or hypnosis, you could turn a gay, white pacifist into a straight, black warmongerer.

This is really quite interesting.

[Turtlekid1]

If being gay is an inclination, then I guess being "straight" is too.

Da Vinci was gay. Put that in your grail and drink it.

Yep, being straight is an inclination too.  The difference being it's the right inclination.

1. It's only immoral by the Bible. Separation of church and state. There is no national religion because we aren't a bunch of witch-burning puritans. Bringing religion into a political discussion is instantaneous failure in my book. Despite any religion I may follow, I think politics from an atheistic point of view because that's how our country was built. With freedom in mind.

2. No they don't. The government doesn't tell me not to lie to my parents. The government doesn't tell me not to swear to my peers. The government doesn't tell me not to flip off bad drivers. I don't do any of those things because I believe they're all crude and I have some amount of self-control.

3. Now, your orientation, like any other like or dislike (and in a more dark zone, fetish), you can't choose or fight. I've tried to force myself to like things before. Coffee. The kinds of music my sister likes (she was the one trying though, but I tried for her). Green beans. When Pokémon went out of style "because we all grew out of it," I tried to stop liking it. Couldn't. Didn't play for a long time but eventually came back. Drug or alcohol addictions can be overcome, but notice the difficulty. And it's not forcing yourself to stop liking it so much as forcing yourself away from it. This is all anecdotal evidence, though. Go ahead and find those sources, Chup.

4. Again you are failing to answer my question (because there is no answer to "how does homosexuality hurt other people" except for "it does not.") Likes and dislikes that hurt people can be outlawed--some people like to shoot people. Some people don't like to tell the truth in court. These result in pain for others. Love lives are very different. You see two guys. Big deal. You see two guys holding hands. OKAY NOW IT'S TIME FOR GOVERNING. But why? Were there guns in their other hands? I mean, there are things people are allowed to do in public that DO hurt others. Smoking is still legal.

1. You're mistaking the definition of "separation of church and state."  The phrase means that the government should not rule the church, not that the church should stay out of government.

2. Again, you're making it sound individualistic.  What's morally wrong for one person is morally wrong for any other person.

3. I didn't say that gay people can just wish away their temptation/inclinations.  They can do exactly what you mentioned: sat away from the temptation.  They can overcome it.  Or is it not worth doing what's right because they actually have to work for it?

4. It hurts the moral and spiritual health of everyone.  But I guess if you want to stand by and let this country rot, then go for it.

[ShadowBrain]

Or is it not worth doing what's right because they actually have to work for it

You are just... sounding like an extraordinary [jerk] right now.

[BP]

It's not worth changing what you're doing if you're doing no wrong.

So, yeah. I get it--I'm talking to a wall. No more of this board for me.

[Luigalaxy]

I have mixed views. My views exactly match yours, NintendoExpert.

[NintendoExpert89]

1. You're mistaking the definition of "separation of church and state."  The phrase means that the government should not rule the church, not that the church should stay out of government.

No. The phrase means both. "Government should not rule the church" is "freedom of religion."
Church being involved with government, as you're saying, hardly causes to them to be separate.

Yep, being straight is an inclination too.  The difference being it's the right inclination.

2. Again, you're making it sound individualistic.  What's morally wrong for one person is morally wrong for any other person.

Unless you can refer to me a book that isn't religious or biased that clearly states what morals apply to all humans, I am not swayed in thinking that one's moral view applies to all because you say so. Bringing up murder or crap like that is completely unrelated.

4. It hurts the moral and spiritual health of everyone.  But I guess if you want to stand by and let this country rot, then go for it.

Give me an example of how a person's moral and spiritual health is destroyed. And show its effects on the person as a whole.