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Author Topic: Canon, plot, style: What's your opinion?  (Read 14282 times)

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« on: October 12, 2007, 05:10:08 PM »
Mario's always been the basic example of a video game hero, and that's because he was one of the first. He runs through worlds, saves Princess Peach, beats Bowser, and saves the day every time. He also has lots of spinoffs; golf, tennis, baseball, soccer, basketball, parties, racing games, you name it. And that's because he's popular. People around the globe love playing Mario, and they'll pay for just about anything that contains everyone's favorite hero plumber.

Focus a bit on the Mario's always been the basic example of a video game hero part, emphasis on "basic". Since Mario's that basic model, Nintendo can throw him into pretty much anything, and people will buy it. And because he's that basic model, Nintendo can use the same storyline over and over, and get away with it, because it's Mario, right?

And since Mario's that basic model, he has to be accessible to everyone. That means no overly dark or complicated plots, except maybe in the RPGs, and an easy gameplay style with not-too-difficult levels, right?

And since Mario has to be accessible, the plot of the games can't be too confusing, so each Mario game should be, for the most part, self-contained. Since he's just about fun and not about complex plots, there should be no real continuity linking the games. Right?

I disagree.

The fact that Mario's everyone's basic game hero is why Nintendo tends to keep Mario in a relatively simple, lighthearted environment. He's very "general"-the guy that saves the Princess and all that and can do pretty much anything Nintendo throws him into. Should he be more "specific"-should Mario games have more advanced plots? Should there be a stronger canon? I say yes. Mario's been in the same over-accessible environment for years now. I say it's time we get something of a darker atmosphere and more difficult games.

Of course, doing these things would make Mario less accessible-but not all of the games have to be like this. Some of the RPGs are considerably darker in tone than most of the other games, making them less accessible, but they're perfect for hardcore gamers like myself. And, there's always a brink-Mario shouldn't be too dark or too complicated, but a fair amount so. Super Paper Mario is a prime example of what I'd like to see in more Mario games nowadays, albeit being way too easy for my tastes; it had more in-depth plot, and, me being a big plot enthusiast, I enjoyed it every step of the way.

What are all of your opinions on the subject? Is Mario fine how he is, or should he develop in a more mature direction without going over the brink? Should the games have a stronger canon?

Feel free to disagree with me. Heck, feel free to take apart my argument and point out flaws. I'll gladly accept any agreement/suggestions/criticism/bashing I get (that is, as long as it's polite) so I can improve my argument and better define my position.
We went to see them for the first time in 5 years because they were going away for 3 years.

« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2007, 05:27:41 PM »
Your preaching to the choir!

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2007, 05:37:07 PM »
Mario doesn't need any canon. Obscure characters dot his history and we can all keep going on without remembering them or expecting them to want to get revenge. Major events stick (Bowser's history of failures, Luigi's Mansion). As long as Peach doesn't kill Mario by accident and he somehow shows up in the next game, it'll all be fine.

Plot and style kind of fit together. The basic, easy-to-understand plot is good for young audiences and not incredibly aggravating for older ones. For the most part, the games themselves can be seen the same way. It's not overpoweringly hard to get to the last fight with Bowser in Super Mario World or Super Mario 64, even for a kid. But there are often extra challenges (like the Star World, or getting all 120 stars) that take a bit more skill to keep more experienced players busy. Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door kind of does the same thing with the plot--the basic plot of the game is easy to grasp, but there's a back story to it all.

I like a darker plot, personally, one in which you don't know what's going to happen next. Super Mario Galaxy seems like it might deliver. I only hope it'll be easy enough to beat to not turn off a younger player, but with enough extra things to do to not turn off a more experienced player.
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Boo Dudley

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« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2007, 06:59:58 PM »
A stern narrative kills mascots. See, mascots are there for longivity, and you can't have character degeneration from having to grow from experiences (Jaded, tired, and possibly irritatingly snarky.) For your deeper plot and characters you have a set story line, otherwise you paint yourself into a proverbial corner, hence fewer titles.

Plus, games are expensive, and 'til awhile ago, on sale only when the system is still produced. Some people would be left in the dark.... "who is this guy, and what was he implying...etc"

« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2007, 07:19:37 PM »
Everything above me is tl:dr.

Basically, nobody plays Mario games for the storyline and thats the way I like it.
As a game that requires six friends, an HDTV, and skill, I can see why the majority of TMK is going to hate on it hard.

« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2007, 07:21:19 PM »
Horror is one of my favorite genres for a movie, and I would like to see a darker tone in a Mario storyline.

I'd like to see some story that's not that generic, but still being similar to what we've known.

The storyline in Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 is a good example of what I like, since the story is a little different than usual, but it still contains the "Defeat Eggman" part of the story. I really like twists and turns in a story, and it keeps me interested, since I know that I won't be able to predict what will happen next. Seriously, I never knew Shadow Mario would be Bowser Jr.

The only games I think have canon are basically the main games, and I think some of the spin-offs, since they include abilites Mario learned from the main games.

Being accessable to all audiences is what bugs me. Some games are "Hold your hand the whole game" so they appeal to the casual audience, and it's not that good for us Hardcore gamers. While that's fine for spin-offs, I don't think main games should be like that. Mario Party had the option of setting difficulty, so why can't the main games have difficulty options?

« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2007, 07:55:50 PM »
And since Mario has to be accessible, the plot of the games can't be too confusing, so each Mario game should be, for the most part, self-contained. Since he's just about fun and not about complex plots, there should be no real continuity linking the games. Right?

It's a freakin' game. Everything you just said in that sentence makes perfect sense. Miyamoto never has continuity in mind when making most of the Mario games anyway. If there was, it would severely limit everything Miyamoto could do with the next game. He would have to follow canon when making games (seriously, does Mario follow a storyline? I think not), but since there isn't a canon, he's able to make games without having to worry about continuity .
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

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« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2007, 08:28:28 PM »
I'm not talking about a continuous storyline. I'm talking about, perhaps we should have a Mario game that's a direct sequel to another, or one that draws heavily upon another. I wouldn't be happy if all the games became one continuous plot. It wouldn't leave room. >_>

Thanks for the comments everyone. I might form a revised version of my original statement sometime based on the input. (I always forget to say something about one of my opinions. Always. >_>)
We went to see them for the first time in 5 years because they were going away for 3 years.

ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2007, 09:20:08 PM »
I think the in-depth territory is reserved for Zelda--and with good cause. A guy in overalls can't get too epic... *braces for onslaught of comments to the contrary*
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2007, 10:22:22 PM »
I think the in-depth territory is reserved for Zelda--and with good cause. A guy in overalls can't get too epic... *braces for onslaught of comments to the contrary*

Well, I though the opening for SMG was pretty epic.

As for regular Mario games to have huge, complex stories, I think that Mario games could go a bit beyond the whole, "rescue the princess" thing, but for the most part, I'm fine with basic plots. What I think Nintendo could focus on is making new villians; after all, Bowser gets pretty stale after a while.

My belief is that it's not just how rich the plot is that makes a game's story good, but how said plot is presented, as well. Going back to SMG for a second, the basic story is just same old, "Bowser kidnaps Peach" stuff, but where it got me was how it was portrayed; big, epic and very exciting. I, personally, thought that Twilight Princess' story and objectives was pretty basic stuff, y'know, "Collect the pieces of sacred holy item from decades ago to combat evil", but it's huge, Lord of the Rings style epicness combined with it's serious dialogue and tone is why I hold it with high regard. Simply put, how the story is told to you can sometimes mask the shortcomings of the plot. At least, that's what I think.
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ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2007, 10:09:34 AM »
Aw, just my luck... I've never seen the SMG opening (and I don't want to--I'm saving it for when I get the game). But, still, I suppose...
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

Chupperson Weird

  • Not interested.
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2007, 10:58:07 AM »
The Mario games don't fit together and there is no point in trying to make them do so. Plots within games are fine, but it ends there. Leave massive storylines to stuff like Xenosaga.
That was a joke.

Kimimaru

  • Max Stats
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2007, 12:52:45 PM »
I say it's time we get something of a darker atmosphere and more difficult games.

I don't necessarily like dark games, and I think his games are getting slightly more difficult. I like Mario how it is now, but if there was something I can change, it would be making a light-hearted game with an in-depth storyline.
The Mario series is the best! It has every genre in video games but RTS'! It also has a plumber who does different roles, a princess, and a lot of odd creatures who don't seem to poop!

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2007, 01:29:25 PM »
Aw, just my luck... I've never seen the SMG opening (and I don't want to--I'm saving it for when I get the game). But, still, I suppose...
When I saw it, my desire for the game changed from, "I'm sure it'll be fun, that's why I preordered it," to, "Oh wow, now I want November to come a bit quicker..." It's a pretty epic opening indeed.
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

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« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2007, 03:24:49 PM »
The Mario games don't fit together and there is no point in trying to make them do so. Plots within games are fine, but it ends there. Leave massive storylines to stuff like Xenosaga.

Yeah, I'm not talking about a massive storyline or anything. I was mainly referring to (gaah, forgot to mention...) inconsistancies within the Mario games; Peach's Castle looking different in every game, Mario supposedly being older but being delievered at the same time as Luigi, etc. These things could use some official explanations without tying the games' storyline too closely. A direct sequel now in then would be nice as well...'Course, that's just my opinion.

Haven't seen the SMG opening (don't want to spoil it for myself) but from what I've heard, it's EPIC. I think I'll really be liking that game.
We went to see them for the first time in 5 years because they were going away for 3 years.

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