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Author Topic: Cloning, genetic research, and the like  (Read 10038 times)

Glorb

  • Banned
« on: September 20, 2008, 10:44:42 PM »
So, cloning and other such ilk: Good, or bad? For, or against? Ethical, or maybe not so much?

Personally, as long as they're kept in check, I think cloning, as well as stem cell research, are extremely important. Opposing either because it's "playing god" is a terribly petty reason for doing so. Wanting to put an end to research that could cure any number of previously incurable diseases because of religious beliefs has got to be the most amazing example of hypocracy I can think of.
every

« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2008, 11:39:22 PM »
Stem cell research, to me, is pointless. We're all going to die one day. And according to atheists (who all seem to be advocates of stem cell research and cloning), we stay dead after death. Which really makes me wonder...what's the point? Just because we cure a disease doesn't mean we've escaped our fate. We've only delayed the inevitable. No matter how many diseases we cure through stem cell research/cloning, we can't cure the biggest disease of them all, which is death.

Cloning is also pointless. Just because you've made a copy of yourself means nothing. The copy can be identical to a person on a genetic level, but unless he/she is brought up in an identical environment, he/she will display traits that are completely opposite of the original. Humans are rather foolish to believe they can "live forever" through a clone.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 11:48:34 PM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

BP

  • Beside Pacific
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2008, 12:00:43 AM »
This is where I really defeat myself. I can talk about how the government shouldn't regulate this and that but I'm really against choosing the genes for to-be-born children to change eye color, affect mental potential, etc. But that's just my belief, that it's wrong... but believing the government should not regulate things like, say, gay marriage "Because it's just wrong," that's no reason to regulate manual gene selection. So instead of that I'll just give the evil eye to parents who do this. It's almost exactly the same as creating a Pokémon with perfect stats, moves, and abilities using a cheat device, and that's something to be frowned upon. The difference is that we do know for sure who created the "world of Pokémon" (that is, the games) and they don't want players to cheat.

As for cloning, I don't see too much wrong with that. Unless your intentions are to make the clone a fanged evil version of the original so that you have a formidable underling to do your bidding, or if it's cheating in Pokémon. That's not a good thing. A cloned person will just be a person with the same genetic makeup as the original, which without religion in mind isn't really terrible...

Blacked for your convenience, highlight for my long speech about stem cells or skip. But this is my argument for "We're all going to die someday."
Stem cell research could lead to the discovery of cures for terminal diseases, which wouldn't be that bad at all. Hmmm... let's say my sister is dying of cancer. Would it be wrong of me to want to save her? The fetus whose stem cells could do it would be born to a pair of irresponsible teenagers who got drunk one night and voila. Well, they're either going to have him aborted or try to raise it because if he's born there's no sending him to an orphanage. Then the girl gets with another guy, so it's the guy, the baby and the new, unwilling grandmother (and she does not like to hold that title so young) of the baby. The grandfather doesn't really want anything to do with him but the grandmother is just too sweet to abandon him. Time spent with his father is time spent almost completely unsupervised, which is whenever the grandmother is working or spending time away from her train wreck of a life. So the baby is now three or maybe three-and-a-half and can't talk because no one has taught him to. He just screams. And hits. He'll destroy a get-together so he can't be taken to dinner. His life will be pretty short, living in a valley with a brown sky in a smokers' home, liable to become a smoker himself at an early age. That is, if he lives long enough to let that kill him--his father's also involved in gang activity. Now, I didn't just make all this up. Everything after the word "orphanage" is true of a family I know. The point I'm trying to make--that poor child is not truly loved and will live a life a fraction as great as it could be, but some cancer patient would have loved to live the life ahead of them, become an author and seen the world... selfish, perhaps, and all men are created equal. So I'm already battling this one out in my brain--I simply cannot choose a side on abortion. But I will say that if you're going to end a life before it starts, save another one if you can. Like when you have excess eggs in Pokémon. You could fry 'em up for a convenient recovery item and save your established team members, or take the thousand or so steps to hatch it and release it to something else to raise it at the expense of your established team members. Which is right?

I can't believe everything I just typed. I guess Pokémon is a pretty realistic game.
All your dreeeeeeams begiiin to shatterrrrrr~
It's YOUR problem!

Chupperson Weird

  • Not interested.
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2008, 12:05:14 AM »
PaperLuigi has utterly confused me. There's no way any sane person would believe that a clone of themself would be the same person. The original wouldn't be around to experience the clone's life, either.
Also, what the heck is wrong with wanting to stay alive as along as possible? That's pretty much Instinct #1.
That was a joke.

« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2008, 12:12:50 AM »
If the clone isn't completely identical, why make one? I thought that was everyone's reason for trying to make a clone. I mean, why not just make a baby? And if you can't and want to leave something of yourself behind, why try and do it that way? There are other ways to leave behind a legacy. Besides, you're obviously going to die and forget everything anyway.

To be honest, I don't really believe that life is pointless, I'm just wondering why Glorb said that not supporting stem cell research for religious reasons was hypocritical while supporting it for atheistic reasons is equally hypocritical.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2008, 12:42:03 AM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

Chupperson Weird

  • Not interested.
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2008, 12:18:06 AM »
I haven't heard of anyone trying to clone themselves in hopes that they will somehow live on in the clone. Like I said before, that's totally illogical. The clone might be identical, but that wouldn't make it the same person. A person is created by their experience. So I don't think you're correct in assuming that in the first place. The reason people advocate cloning is for stem cell therapy.
That was a joke.

Glorb

  • Banned
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2008, 11:12:41 AM »
I say that blocking off life-saving research because it's done in a way that the bible says is bad is, well, bad. Does the bible say it's okay to stop hundreds of thousands of people from dying slow, painful, emotionally draining (for both themselves and loved ones) deaths so you can save one life that, for all you know, could grow up and become a junkie that doesn't do a single thing with his/her life? Even if it doesn't, and I'm sorry to put it this way, hundreds of thousands of people are more important than one single person.

And, yeah, PL, I think you miss the point of cloning. Some people could use it to have children if they're incapable of doing so, for example. Or you could use it to grow a specific organ that you've lost, since it would be compatible with you. Cloning's not just about making a copy of yourself just for kicks. Besides, it would take years to grow up to become the same age as you were when you cloned yourself, and by then you'd be twice that age.
every

« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2008, 11:25:55 AM »
I'm completely against cloning and genetic manipulation for many reasons I don't feel like explaining right now.
ROM hacking with a slice of life.

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2008, 01:00:53 PM »
I say that blocking off life-saving research because it's done in a way that the bible says is bad is, well, bad.

Only in the eyes of one who doesn't look on the Bible as a code of law.  You have to remember that millions of people worldwide take every word in the book, myself included, very seriously.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

Luigison

  • Old Person™
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2008, 01:29:58 PM »
By "very seriously" do you mean absolute truth? 
“Evolution has shaped us with perceptions that allow us to survive. But part of that involves hiding from us the stuff we don’t need to know."

ShadowBrain

  • Ridiculously relevant
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2008, 04:41:27 PM »
Stem cell research: Yes
Cloning/genetic modification: No
"Mario is your oyster." ~The Chef

« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2008, 05:11:19 PM »
Stem cell is fine if fetuses don't get harmed or their DNA in any way.
ROM hacking with a slice of life.

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2008, 06:39:42 PM »
That's not possible. The point of stem cell is to use and aborted fetus as a subject for research. My views are that if a woman decides to get an abortion, then the fetus shouldn't really be wasted. It's the same thing as getting a cremation as opposed to being buried, except in this case it could potentially cure previously incurable disease.

My stance on abortion by itself however, is a whole other ball game.

Chupperson Weird

  • Not interested.
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2008, 07:09:50 PM »
I don't think nensondubois knows what DNA is.
That was a joke.

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2008, 04:38:32 PM »
By "very seriously" do you mean absolute truth? 

Yes.  And I'm very serious.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

Glorb

  • Banned
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2008, 06:26:14 PM »
Do you take it all literally? As in, every word in the bible should be read exactly precisely as it's written, and interpreted as such? 'Cause, y'know, there's some pretty harsh stuff in there regarding, for example, homosexuality and the rights of women, to put it very lightly.
every

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2008, 07:25:47 PM »
Even if I were a devoutly religious Christian (and I'm born a Catholic, so...), I think I'd take the scriptures as one big allegory. Isn't the point of it to convey morals, like any good book?

By the logic Turtlekid is putting out about himself, could I just as easily take what was written in any book as absolute fact? The Scientologists sure did.

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2008, 07:43:31 PM »
The point of the Bible is to give law and guidance for God's people.  Unlike any other book, the Bible is God-inspired, which is why we can take what is written in it as absolute fact.

Glorb: It's harsh against homosexuality because homosexuality is wrong.  As for women's rights, Christianity/Western Culture gives women rights and priveliges like no other religion/society has.  Define "the rights of women".
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

Chupperson Weird

  • Not interested.
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2008, 08:20:22 PM »
Okay, this is why I dislike having political discussion around.
If you agree with the Bible about the women's rights in question, then you don't agree that they should get the rights and privileges they do in "Christianity/Western Culture". Read up, son. I heard just the other day about people getting a magazine taken off the shelves because it featured female pastors on the cover, which according to the Bible, isn't permissible. The thing is, the world grew up.
That was a joke.

« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2008, 08:29:47 PM »
The point of the Bible is to give law and guidance for God's people.  Unlike any other book, the Bible is God-inspired, which is why we can take what is written in it as absolute fact.

Glorb: It's harsh against homosexuality because homosexuality is wrong.  As for women's rights, Christianity/Western Culture gives women rights and priveliges like no other religion/society has.  Define "the rights of women".

Dude, I don't agree with you. Jesus came back and rewrote the law. We don't have to live by Old Testament rules anymore. This might make you cringe, but the Bible isn't perfect. Jesus is. If you really want to live a Christian life, start living the way He did. He said nothing about female pastors, homosexuality, or even abortion! He said "love me and love your neighbor." The Bible wasn't even around when Jesus was.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 08:33:56 PM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

Kimimaru

  • Max Stats
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2008, 09:33:37 PM »
People are working on a way to clone organs. That's very useful for those who need transplants, especially since someone else doesn't need to give up his/her own organ.
The Mario series is the best! It has every genre in video games but RTS'! It also has a plumber who does different roles, a princess, and a lot of odd creatures who don't seem to poop!

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2008, 09:40:13 PM »
Dude, I don't agree with you. Jesus came back and rewrote the law. We don't have to live by Old Testament rules anymore. This might make you cringe, but the Bible isn't perfect. Jesus is. If you really want to live a Christian life, start living the way He did. He said nothing about female pastors, homosexuality, or even abortion! He said "love me and love your neighbor." The Bible wasn't even around when Jesus was.
I hate to do this again so soon, but... we disagree. "The Bible" in its current form didn't exist when Jesus did, but all the Old Testament books did, in pretty much the same arrangement they're in now (and affirmed by Jesus in, among other passages, John 5:46-47, Luke 16:31, Matthew 12:40-41, Matthew 19:3-9, Luke 17:26-32, Luke 4:27, John 3:14, Luke 24:44, and Luke 11:51). The New Testament books were all written by guys endorsed by Jesus. And 2 Timothy 3:16 says "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness." So actually, Jesus said all of it (Also, don't forget Matthew 5:17).

We are under a new covenant now, but not everything is thrown out. The civil and ceremonial laws, as well as the punishments for breaking the moral laws, were given only to the nation of Israel at that time, and no longer apply, but the moral laws do. (Or you can say that only the laws reiterated in the New Testament count, in which you get all the Ten Commandments except the Sabbath, and most of the sexual laws (Romans 1:26-27 and 1 Corinthians 5:1, for starters). Either way, you get to pretty much the same place.)
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2008, 10:14:25 PM »
Hm...so punishment no longer applies, yes? I know the moral/sexual laws still apply (like not committing adultery and not murdering) but this means that women can be who they want to be and humans shouldn't judge other humans. Am I right or am I making a fool of myself?
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2008, 05:13:53 AM »
Shortly after Jesus says "Judge not, lest you be judged," he says to watch out for false teachers, saying "You will know them by their fruits." So apparently judgment does play some role. I think there's a difference between discernment and condemnation. And we should start by looking at ourselves, and then at other Christians. I don't think we need to apply the whole moral code to unsaved people, because getting them to do a few less wrong things isn't going to save them, and once they are saved, they'll be given a desire to do right. So there ends up being a decision that we have to make about which moral laws should apply to everyone, and whether there's a connection there. I think most of the time we spend moralizing would be better spent evangelizing.
Also, I think that, based on 1 Corinthians 8-10, morals are more personal now. There are still core standards that we should all agree on, but for the more trivial things, it's mostly just based on whether your conscience is bothering you and whether you could end up leading other people to sin.
I'm kind of tired.
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2008, 06:11:40 AM »
Ah, CrossEyed!  Please tell me you haven't crossed over to relativism! 

PL: When Jesus "rewrote" the law, he did away with animal sacrifice.  That's all.  Moral laws still stand.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2008, 12:41:13 PM »
PL: When Jesus "rewrote" the law, he did away with animal sacrifice.  That's all.  Moral laws still stand.

That's it? No it's not. What do you think he meant when he said "Turn the other cheek" after he said "In the past, it was an eye for an eye?" I know moral law still stands, but it's no longer our job to pass moral judgement because Jesus died on the cross. He also said, when the woman committed adultery, to have mercy on her because we've all done awful things. Do you think he was lying when he said that? We're not supposed to sentence others to death. That's judging them based on their sins, which is God's job.

Please read this story. If this is not how we're supposed to act towards our fellow man (even when they've done horrible things to us), I don't know what is.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 12:48:35 PM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2008, 02:11:14 PM »
Sounds to me like PL is a fan of the New Testament, while Turtlekid and CrossEyed would rather stick to the Old Testament.

It's like a bunch of comic nerds preferring the Golden Age or Silver Age over the Dark Age or Modern Age (no offense to you, PL. I like your line of thinking).

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2008, 05:48:54 PM »
I think Jesus actually intensified the law, to bring it back to its original purpose. Over time, the Pharisees had turned the law into a giant list of rules, with the idea that if you followed all the rules, you'd be rewarded. The real purpose of the law was to show us our total need for God's forgiveness. So Jesus cranked it up a notch, with stuff like "You have heard it said of old, 'thou shalt not commit adultery,' but I say to you, whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already with her in his heart." The point of the law has always been to lead us to God (Galatians 3:24). So the moral laws still stand, but we should be dealing with our logs first.

However, that doesn't mean we don't legitimately help others by pointing out sin. If a blind man was about to walk off a cliff, you'd run over and help him, even if you've been known to fall off of precipices yourself. But it should always be done in love, and keeping in mind that even if we could force people to do what we want them to do, it won't do them any good until they change themselves (or until God changes them, depending on how Calvinist you are).
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

Koopaslaya

  • Kansas
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2008, 09:42:03 PM »
Why don't we approach this question from the perspective of Natural Law, that is (according to Francis Slade), "the ontological priority of ends over purposes." Before you stop reading for fear of big words, allow me to explain myself. Ends are what something is for, regardless of human intentions. Purposes exist in the mind of men. Something's end may or may not coincidence with a particular's purpose. For instance: a musician's end is to make music, but his purpose may be to make money, or to get babes, or to (perhaps) make music. If the musician takes money to be more important than making music, his intentions become entangled and his art conflicts his purpose.

Applying this though to stem cell research, we see that it is always immoral, because it puts a purpose over an end.

The end of a Fetus is always to continue growing into a fully flourishing human adult. In our stupidity, we attempt to prioritize our own purposes over natural ends. Thus, we think that a Fetus can be used to make other people well, when its end -- external to man -- is to continue growing.

In our mechanistic world, we must be careful when making moral decisions. We are not simply walking machines, but rather living beings that have ends within ourselves. Our ends are written upon our form -- human beings. Our source of change in within ourselves. When we mechanize the world, we take away from ourselves the very thing that makes us us: our humanity.
Εὐθύνατε τὴν ὁδὸν Κυρίου

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2008, 08:50:46 AM »
I think Jesus actually intensified the law, to bring it back to its original purpose. Over time, the Pharisees had turned the law into a giant list of rules, with the idea that if you followed all the rules, you'd be rewarded. The real purpose of the law was to show us our total need for God's forgiveness. So Jesus cranked it up a notch, with stuff like "You have heard it said of old, 'thou shalt not commit adultery,' but I say to you, whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already with her in his heart." The point of the law has always been to lead us to God (Galatians 3:24). So the moral laws still stand, but we should be dealing with our logs first.

However, that doesn't mean we don't legitimately help others by pointing out sin. If a blind man was about to walk off a cliff, you'd run over and help him, even if you've been known to fall off of precipices yourself. But it should always be done in love, and keeping in mind that even if we could force people to do what we want them to do, it won't do them any good until they change themselves (or until God changes them, depending on how Calvinist you are).

^ best post in this sub-forum explaining the issue so far.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2008, 02:58:54 PM »
It doesn't mention cloning or genetic research at all, so...?

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