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Author Topic: Cloning, genetic research, and the like  (Read 10037 times)

Glorb

  • Banned
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2008, 06:26:14 PM »
Do you take it all literally? As in, every word in the bible should be read exactly precisely as it's written, and interpreted as such? 'Cause, y'know, there's some pretty harsh stuff in there regarding, for example, homosexuality and the rights of women, to put it very lightly.
every

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2008, 07:25:47 PM »
Even if I were a devoutly religious Christian (and I'm born a Catholic, so...), I think I'd take the scriptures as one big allegory. Isn't the point of it to convey morals, like any good book?

By the logic Turtlekid is putting out about himself, could I just as easily take what was written in any book as absolute fact? The Scientologists sure did.

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2008, 07:43:31 PM »
The point of the Bible is to give law and guidance for God's people.  Unlike any other book, the Bible is God-inspired, which is why we can take what is written in it as absolute fact.

Glorb: It's harsh against homosexuality because homosexuality is wrong.  As for women's rights, Christianity/Western Culture gives women rights and priveliges like no other religion/society has.  Define "the rights of women".
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

Chupperson Weird

  • Not interested.
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2008, 08:20:22 PM »
Okay, this is why I dislike having political discussion around.
If you agree with the Bible about the women's rights in question, then you don't agree that they should get the rights and privileges they do in "Christianity/Western Culture". Read up, son. I heard just the other day about people getting a magazine taken off the shelves because it featured female pastors on the cover, which according to the Bible, isn't permissible. The thing is, the world grew up.
That was a joke.

« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2008, 08:29:47 PM »
The point of the Bible is to give law and guidance for God's people.  Unlike any other book, the Bible is God-inspired, which is why we can take what is written in it as absolute fact.

Glorb: It's harsh against homosexuality because homosexuality is wrong.  As for women's rights, Christianity/Western Culture gives women rights and priveliges like no other religion/society has.  Define "the rights of women".

Dude, I don't agree with you. Jesus came back and rewrote the law. We don't have to live by Old Testament rules anymore. This might make you cringe, but the Bible isn't perfect. Jesus is. If you really want to live a Christian life, start living the way He did. He said nothing about female pastors, homosexuality, or even abortion! He said "love me and love your neighbor." The Bible wasn't even around when Jesus was.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 08:33:56 PM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

Kimimaru

  • Max Stats
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2008, 09:33:37 PM »
People are working on a way to clone organs. That's very useful for those who need transplants, especially since someone else doesn't need to give up his/her own organ.
The Mario series is the best! It has every genre in video games but RTS'! It also has a plumber who does different roles, a princess, and a lot of odd creatures who don't seem to poop!

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2008, 09:40:13 PM »
Dude, I don't agree with you. Jesus came back and rewrote the law. We don't have to live by Old Testament rules anymore. This might make you cringe, but the Bible isn't perfect. Jesus is. If you really want to live a Christian life, start living the way He did. He said nothing about female pastors, homosexuality, or even abortion! He said "love me and love your neighbor." The Bible wasn't even around when Jesus was.
I hate to do this again so soon, but... we disagree. "The Bible" in its current form didn't exist when Jesus did, but all the Old Testament books did, in pretty much the same arrangement they're in now (and affirmed by Jesus in, among other passages, John 5:46-47, Luke 16:31, Matthew 12:40-41, Matthew 19:3-9, Luke 17:26-32, Luke 4:27, John 3:14, Luke 24:44, and Luke 11:51). The New Testament books were all written by guys endorsed by Jesus. And 2 Timothy 3:16 says "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness." So actually, Jesus said all of it (Also, don't forget Matthew 5:17).

We are under a new covenant now, but not everything is thrown out. The civil and ceremonial laws, as well as the punishments for breaking the moral laws, were given only to the nation of Israel at that time, and no longer apply, but the moral laws do. (Or you can say that only the laws reiterated in the New Testament count, in which you get all the Ten Commandments except the Sabbath, and most of the sexual laws (Romans 1:26-27 and 1 Corinthians 5:1, for starters). Either way, you get to pretty much the same place.)
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2008, 10:14:25 PM »
Hm...so punishment no longer applies, yes? I know the moral/sexual laws still apply (like not committing adultery and not murdering) but this means that women can be who they want to be and humans shouldn't judge other humans. Am I right or am I making a fool of myself?
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2008, 05:13:53 AM »
Shortly after Jesus says "Judge not, lest you be judged," he says to watch out for false teachers, saying "You will know them by their fruits." So apparently judgment does play some role. I think there's a difference between discernment and condemnation. And we should start by looking at ourselves, and then at other Christians. I don't think we need to apply the whole moral code to unsaved people, because getting them to do a few less wrong things isn't going to save them, and once they are saved, they'll be given a desire to do right. So there ends up being a decision that we have to make about which moral laws should apply to everyone, and whether there's a connection there. I think most of the time we spend moralizing would be better spent evangelizing.
Also, I think that, based on 1 Corinthians 8-10, morals are more personal now. There are still core standards that we should all agree on, but for the more trivial things, it's mostly just based on whether your conscience is bothering you and whether you could end up leading other people to sin.
I'm kind of tired.
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2008, 06:11:40 AM »
Ah, CrossEyed!  Please tell me you haven't crossed over to relativism! 

PL: When Jesus "rewrote" the law, he did away with animal sacrifice.  That's all.  Moral laws still stand.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2008, 12:41:13 PM »
PL: When Jesus "rewrote" the law, he did away with animal sacrifice.  That's all.  Moral laws still stand.

That's it? No it's not. What do you think he meant when he said "Turn the other cheek" after he said "In the past, it was an eye for an eye?" I know moral law still stands, but it's no longer our job to pass moral judgement because Jesus died on the cross. He also said, when the woman committed adultery, to have mercy on her because we've all done awful things. Do you think he was lying when he said that? We're not supposed to sentence others to death. That's judging them based on their sins, which is God's job.

Please read this story. If this is not how we're supposed to act towards our fellow man (even when they've done horrible things to us), I don't know what is.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 12:48:35 PM by PaperLuigi »
Luigison: Question everything!
Me: Why?

The Chef

  • Super
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2008, 02:11:14 PM »
Sounds to me like PL is a fan of the New Testament, while Turtlekid and CrossEyed would rather stick to the Old Testament.

It's like a bunch of comic nerds preferring the Golden Age or Silver Age over the Dark Age or Modern Age (no offense to you, PL. I like your line of thinking).

CrossEyed7

  • i can make this whatever i want; you're not my dad
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2008, 05:48:54 PM »
I think Jesus actually intensified the law, to bring it back to its original purpose. Over time, the Pharisees had turned the law into a giant list of rules, with the idea that if you followed all the rules, you'd be rewarded. The real purpose of the law was to show us our total need for God's forgiveness. So Jesus cranked it up a notch, with stuff like "You have heard it said of old, 'thou shalt not commit adultery,' but I say to you, whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already with her in his heart." The point of the law has always been to lead us to God (Galatians 3:24). So the moral laws still stand, but we should be dealing with our logs first.

However, that doesn't mean we don't legitimately help others by pointing out sin. If a blind man was about to walk off a cliff, you'd run over and help him, even if you've been known to fall off of precipices yourself. But it should always be done in love, and keeping in mind that even if we could force people to do what we want them to do, it won't do them any good until they change themselves (or until God changes them, depending on how Calvinist you are).
"Oh man, I wish being a part of a Mario fan community was the most embarrassing thing about my life." - Super-Jesse

Koopaslaya

  • Kansas
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2008, 09:42:03 PM »
Why don't we approach this question from the perspective of Natural Law, that is (according to Francis Slade), "the ontological priority of ends over purposes." Before you stop reading for fear of big words, allow me to explain myself. Ends are what something is for, regardless of human intentions. Purposes exist in the mind of men. Something's end may or may not coincidence with a particular's purpose. For instance: a musician's end is to make music, but his purpose may be to make money, or to get babes, or to (perhaps) make music. If the musician takes money to be more important than making music, his intentions become entangled and his art conflicts his purpose.

Applying this though to stem cell research, we see that it is always immoral, because it puts a purpose over an end.

The end of a Fetus is always to continue growing into a fully flourishing human adult. In our stupidity, we attempt to prioritize our own purposes over natural ends. Thus, we think that a Fetus can be used to make other people well, when its end -- external to man -- is to continue growing.

In our mechanistic world, we must be careful when making moral decisions. We are not simply walking machines, but rather living beings that have ends within ourselves. Our ends are written upon our form -- human beings. Our source of change in within ourselves. When we mechanize the world, we take away from ourselves the very thing that makes us us: our humanity.
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Turtlekid1

  • Tortuga
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2008, 08:50:46 AM »
I think Jesus actually intensified the law, to bring it back to its original purpose. Over time, the Pharisees had turned the law into a giant list of rules, with the idea that if you followed all the rules, you'd be rewarded. The real purpose of the law was to show us our total need for God's forgiveness. So Jesus cranked it up a notch, with stuff like "You have heard it said of old, 'thou shalt not commit adultery,' but I say to you, whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already with her in his heart." The point of the law has always been to lead us to God (Galatians 3:24). So the moral laws still stand, but we should be dealing with our logs first.

However, that doesn't mean we don't legitimately help others by pointing out sin. If a blind man was about to walk off a cliff, you'd run over and help him, even if you've been known to fall off of precipices yourself. But it should always be done in love, and keeping in mind that even if we could force people to do what we want them to do, it won't do them any good until they change themselves (or until God changes them, depending on how Calvinist you are).

^ best post in this sub-forum explaining the issue so far.
"It'll say life is sacred and so is death
but death is life and so we move on"

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