Author Topic: Subspace Emissary Discussion (Heavy SSE Spoilers) (Read 14111 times)

Nintendoobsessed · « **on:** March 18, 2008, 04:57:05 PM »

First off...I hope this contributes more to Fungi Forums.
I found a lot of things strange in the SSE, and I'm sure you did too. There are small random things, like why certain characters were where, but also, are there other characters not included? (Like, is Toad somewhere in the world?) It seems to be, as Krystal has a cameo, and the southern end of the continent is not shown. Here's a list of questions I have...add to the list, or answer some!

1. What was Lucas doing in a Abandoned Zoo, Why was the Theme of Love playing, why was Lucas sad? (Had his mother just died?)
2. What is Porky doing, randomly attacking Ness and Lucas, and what is his role in the Bowser---Ganondorf---Master Hand---Tabuu line?
3. Do the characters secretly speak? (Diddy Kong appears to be speaking to Fox in a cutscene)
4. Are there other characters in the world?
5. (Minor one) What is Link's view on Yoshi, the first time he passes him? (Does Link regard Yoshi as forest wildlife?)
6. Are there more character relations then just Link...sees Zelda attacked...reacts?
7. What is up with R.O.B. suddenly joining the band, after causing so much misery?
8. Where does AM(Or R.O.B.) fit in the Army line? See above.
9. Many, many more questions on Trophy/World Relationships/Governement/Death/Politics.
10. How have almost all of the characters never met each other?

Suffix · « **Reply #1 on:** March 18, 2008, 10:57:36 PM »

1 and 2: The plot makes little sense: the displaced trophies in their psuedo-environments just try to do what they'd do normally, but elements are off. Consider the fact just about every game's environment appears on one continent.

3: They only speak with what sound effects exist in normal gameplay (that's a real literal answer there).

4: Nope.

5: Perhaps he didn't even see Yoshi until the Primids appeared.

6: You do see things such as Mario avenging Peach's "death," Samus saving Pikachu from some sort of horrible experiment, and King Dedede enthusiastically greeting Kirby.

7: R.O.B. was never on the Subspace Army's side. I can't remember everything from what I read with the trophies, but their facilities were annexed to produce the Subspace Bombs, and they were essentially enslaved. R.O.B., their apparent leader, was forced to lead them.

8: I believe I just answered that.

9: Okay.

10: Although they exist as trophies in this world, they appear to have the experience of their counterparts in actual games-- and it seems the new trophies felt more out of place.

All those questions aside, does anyone know what the flag/circle symbols on the map mean? I would assume flagged courses have been completely explored, and the others have more exits or items. Actually, I just realized: perhaps the places without flags also have trophies to get. It would explain why many boss-levels are missing flags.

Vidgmchtr · « **Reply #2 on:** March 19, 2008, 12:36:42 AM »

Well, after getting Toon Link and Wolf, the levels they were hidden in turned from flags to crowns, so I'm assuming flags denote finished, yet not fully explored levels.

MEGAß¥TE · « **Reply #3 on:** March 19, 2008, 12:43:15 AM »

Correct, as described by Sakurai a few weeks ago: http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/gamemode/modea/modea14.html

Suffix · « **Reply #4 on:** March 19, 2008, 12:10:29 PM »

Whoops. I should have gone back and read that article again.

SushieBoy · « **Reply #5 on:** March 19, 2008, 02:37:42 PM »

2. Well doesn't Porky hate Lucas and Ness? Of course he would randomly attack. Or.... he was given orders by Tabuu.

Ultima Shadow · « **Reply #6 on:** March 19, 2008, 03:06:10 PM »

I'd say he's just fulfilling his character as just a bully; little kid wandering around, Porky decides he wants to terrorize him a bit, Ness stops him, yadda yadda yadda.

Linkin800 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 19, 2008, 07:29:15 PM »

A new question that I have is... WHAT THE HECK! Whats with Sonic just randomly appearing at the end?! where did he come from? was Tabuu also attacking his world also at the same time?

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #8 on:** March 19, 2008, 08:52:37 PM »

Quote from: Nintendoobsessed on March 18, 2008, 04:57:05 PM

1. What was Lucas doing in a Abandoned Zoo, Why was the Theme of Love playing, why was Lucas sad? (Had his mother just died?)

Well, that zoo is pretty creepy...

Ultima Shadow · « **Reply #9 on:** March 20, 2008, 12:10:46 AM »

Quote from: Linkin800 on March 19, 2008, 07:29:15 PM

A new question that I have is... WHAT THE HECK! Whats with Sonic just randomly appearing at the end?! where did he come from? was Tabuu also attacking his world also at the same time?

I've heard a rumour that Sakurai decided on the roster ages before the release (the consensus being 2 years or so ago) and that Sonic was a relatively last-minute addition, hence his small role in the Subspace Emissary (come on, would you want to edit all of those cutscenes to include Sonic?).

But in regards to the story itself, I find it ironic that Sonic, the fastest thing alive, was the last and latest to arrive to fight Tabuu.

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #10 on:** March 20, 2008, 07:26:40 AM »

Since I think there's two ways to get every character (one directly involving SSE, one not), they just threw him in there in the last little bit in case you couldn't figure out how to get him before. That, or they didn't want a third-partier interfering too much with the plot (but then what of Snake? Oh, well, maybe they still hold a grudge about competing agains Sonic in the SNES/Genesis era...).

Kimimaru · « **Reply #11 on:** March 20, 2008, 09:12:15 AM »

You know when Link tried attacking Mario when he saw them next to the Zelda trophy? I find it strange how Mario was prepared to fight Yoshi. I mean, he's right there...

MEGAß¥TE · « **Reply #12 on:** March 20, 2008, 11:14:19 AM »

Sonic was added near the end of development, after the story and everything was done. Sakurai said so during his talk at GDC.

Crazee · « **Reply #13 on:** March 20, 2008, 11:40:59 AM »

I really don't expect to get another Smash Bros. game, but if we do I'm sure there will be another story mode and Sonic(and likely a second character from his universe...probably Knuckles or even Shadow in the Dedede "Looks like a villian, but isn't" role) will have a bigger role. A ot of the areas in the SSE seem to be referances to different games. The inside of the ship was reminiscient of Metal Gear despite being Meta Knight's ship. And the idea of a Floating Island...while the stage has NOTHING to do with floating...or an island...seems to be a Sonic referance,. Or could be.

To be honest, I could deal without seeing another fighting game since really we're just at the point where it's "Add new characters, stages, etc". Which is great, but you could just do a SSBB -Championship Edition or something, street fighter style with extra features. But I almost would like a standalone Adventure title in the vein of SSE but completely dedicated to nostalgia, game referances, character interaction and platforming. Being standalone could allow for characters to not have those "I just died because I'm platforming in a fighting game" moments. And it could be longer and more detailed. And if it takes a new SSB to get that....well, fine. But it sounds like it could work, and even be a "unique franchise" and entice Sakurai.

BP · « **Reply #14 on:** March 21, 2008, 03:24:22 AM »

1. I think that the Ruined Zoo being where the Mother characters meet is a reference to Podunk Zoo from the first game. Perhaps Lucas was wandering around the place because it's an ancient PSI user's homeland, or was looking for their fabulous singing monkey. But I wonder what happened that made it so ruined... maybe before proceeding to Eagleland, Giegue really did get revenge on Ninten, or at least the country where he once lived. But I'm just a wishful Mother fan; Sakurai wouldn't have had that all planned out. At most, the Zoo is a reference to Podunk.

3. That's what makes the game so hard: everyone's a mime.

6. Mario loves Peach. Big news. But I was a bit hurt that he'd impulsively attack Yoshi like that. They're supposedly better friends than any other pair of Nintendo characters, ever... I imagine he'd trust him enough to get an answer before jumping to a conclusion, especially under such weird circumstances. But there are other ways, to me, in which Mario just doesn't seem like Mario in Smash.

Link protects Zelda... If not romance, he probably respects her deeply for the events in Twilight Princess. Though, it could just be the designs of Link and Zelda in Brawl, and not the actual characters. What the Dukar is Link doing with a Navi-like fairy?

9. No.

TEM · « **Reply #15 on:** March 21, 2008, 08:52:28 AM »

Quote from: Bird Person on March 21, 2008, 03:24:22 AM

Though, it could just be the designs of Link and Zelda in Brawl, and not the actual characters.

What the Dukar is Link doing with a Navi-like fairy?

I think you answered your question in the first line. I like to think that the characters in the SSB series are just amalgamations of every occurrence of that character, even Link and Zelda who are actual different people in almost every LoZ game. As for the looks that come from specific games; they have to give them a model so they look like something, right? I thought Link's fairy taunt and Navi's appearance were cool inclusions even though the only "companion fairy" that appears in TP is a pointer thing.

Suffix · « **Reply #16 on:** March 21, 2008, 12:49:12 PM »

If the character's weren't amalgamations, then we wouldn't see Sheik, and Ganondorf would feel like using his sword.

BP · « **Reply #17 on:** March 21, 2008, 05:46:16 PM »

Well, Ganondorf is always the same Ganondorf throughout the series, unless you think about the timeline split... his actions in the Emissary are just like those in Ocarina of Time as well: work with those in control until the opportunity to conquer shows itself.

Glitchy · « **Reply #18 on:** March 21, 2008, 06:24:20 PM »

I'm also alarmed how Mario just attacks Yoshi, I mean...what the heck? Even more mysterious, is that Mario rides Yoshi at the end of one of the cut scenes. So, SMW happened, Mario hates Yoshi but still remembers that he could ride him? WTH?

Suffix · « **Reply #19 on:** March 21, 2008, 07:04:11 PM »

Perhaps by beating him you somehow knock some sense into him.

I have good news concerning the final boss! For a while, I thought that his concentric-spheres-of-energy attack was undodgable. I was wrong! When my roommate and I were beating SSE for the second time on Monday, I accidentally down-dodged it! And then died. Now, however, we have mastered sidestepping the attack, and we feel cool.

I won't pretend that any of you didn't know this already, so don't mock my enthusiasm.

Chupperson Weird · « **Reply #20 on:** March 21, 2008, 10:00:55 PM »

Quote from: Glitchy on March 21, 2008, 06:24:20 PM

So, SMW happened

No games happened. SSE is a completely out of context romp in its own pocket reality.

MEGAß¥TE · « **Reply #21 on:** March 21, 2008, 10:18:04 PM »

Quote from: Bird Person on March 21, 2008, 03:24:22 AM

Though, it could just be the designs of Link and Zelda in Brawl, and not the actual characters. What the Dukar is Link doing with a Navi-like fairy?

If you watch Snake's codec conversation about Toon Link, they actually talk about how there are different Links through time.
Also, if you read the Twilight Princess manual, you'd see that the fairy is named Navigation Pointer.

Mr. Wiggles · « **Reply #22 on:** March 22, 2008, 05:18:23 PM »

Pokemon Trainer is pretty good at dodging Tabuu's screen attack, since all you have to is switch out which takes about as much time as his attack.

Another question left unanswered: Pikachu in his little generator capsule. What exactly was his purpose for being there? It didn't seem like he was powering the bombs or anything. Also, how did Samus lose her suit?

SushieBoy · « **Reply #23 on:** March 22, 2008, 09:41:13 PM »

Quote from: Mr. Wiggles on March 22, 2008, 05:18:23 PM

Another question left unanswered: Pikachu in his little generator capsule. What exactly was his purpose for being there? It didn't seem like he was powering the bombs or anything. Also, how did Samus lose her suit?

I'm sure it was all part of an evil experiment. For the 2nd one I'm not sure. Well They had to add Zero Suit Samus in some way.

BP · « **Reply #24 on:** March 22, 2008, 10:01:58 PM »

The Research Facility. A facility for research. On things like Chozo technology and oddities like electric mice.

Glitchy · « **Reply #25 on:** March 23, 2008, 06:35:32 PM »

Quote from: Chupperson Weird on March 21, 2008, 10:00:55 PM

No games happened. SSE is a completely out of context romp in its own pocket reality.

Okay then. So Mario just "decides" to ride Yoshi out of the blue?

Chupperson Weird · « **Reply #26 on:** March 23, 2008, 09:14:04 PM »

No, he does what his FMV told him to do.

Bag of Magic Food · « **Reply #27 on:** March 23, 2008, 09:56:10 PM »

That's not a story reason. We want a story-based reason.

Chupperson Weird · « **Reply #28 on:** March 23, 2008, 10:09:41 PM »

What are you on about? The characters from the same franchise are obviously going to act in a manner similar to how they would in their own games.

penguinwizard · « **Reply #29 on:** March 24, 2008, 12:35:32 AM »

Quote from: Chupperson Weird on March 23, 2008, 10:09:41 PM

What are you on about? The characters from the same franchise are obviously going to act in a manner similar to how they would in their own games.

Kicking Yoshi in the face?

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #30 on:** March 24, 2008, 07:03:33 AM »

I think most of the actions of the characters in SSE can be solved by the good old "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" truism.

Nintendoobsessed · « **Reply #31 on:** March 24, 2008, 04:25:12 PM »

I wonder what happens after Subspace is defeated. Are their memories reset, back to the beginning? Perhaps, they'll have a better understanding of the world?

BP · « **Reply #32 on:** March 24, 2008, 04:35:36 PM »

Same as asking, "Why aren't Mario and Bowser still friends by the time of Mario Galaxy since I had them together in a team match all the time in Melee?"

MaxVance · « **Reply #33 on:** March 24, 2008, 05:03:52 PM »

What was Rayquaza doing in a lake? Seems to me like it should have come from the sky.

SushieBoy · « **Reply #34 on:** March 24, 2008, 05:24:07 PM »

Quote from: MaxVance on March 24, 2008, 05:03:52 PM

What was Rayquaza doing in a lake? Seems to me like it should have come from the sky.

Maybe that's were it comes from in the Pokemon games, but I don't know since I don't play the games.

BP · « **Reply #35 on:** March 24, 2008, 07:34:47 PM »

It is the Sky High Pokémon, it lives in the sky, it rests only atop Sky Pillar, etc.

Suffix · « **Reply #36 on:** March 24, 2008, 07:46:45 PM »

It was taking a bath, and it wanted to shoot something!

Ultima Shadow · « **Reply #37 on:** March 25, 2008, 04:01:08 AM »

"I knew I took a wrong turn at Albuquerque."

Lizard Dude · « **Reply #38 on:** March 29, 2008, 03:45:05 PM »

Maybe Mario assumed Yoshi et al. were evil shadow versions like show up a lot elsewhere throughout the game. That's why he kicked Yoshi.

The Yoshi he knows wouldn't have hurt Peach.

-Lizard Dude

TEM · « **Reply #39 on:** March 29, 2008, 04:39:00 PM »

Maybe there are wild/rabid Yoshi (Yoshis?) that attack people. They are dinosaurs.

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #40 on:** March 30, 2008, 07:43:55 PM »

^ Zombie Yoshis from the Nintendo Power comics!

MaxVance · « **Reply #41 on:** April 10, 2008, 02:17:43 PM »

Sakurai explained SSE in today's Smash Bros. DOJO!! update. I think that when you, the creator of the game, have to explain its story, then you didn't do a good enough job of telling it.

jmdblazer · « **Reply #42 on:** April 10, 2008, 04:37:10 PM »

I read that today and some of the stuff was like "how the heck were you supposed to know that?!"

Suffix · « **Reply #43 on:** April 10, 2008, 05:03:24 PM »

It's seriously tough to tell a story in pantomime and gameplay, however. How would you explain the origin of Tabuu and his forces without a ton of cutscenes before the stadium? Without text?

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #44 on:** April 10, 2008, 06:48:42 PM »

Quote from: MaxVance on April 10, 2008, 02:17:43 PM

Sakurai explained SSE in today's Smash Bros. DOJO!! update. I think that when you, the creator of the game, have to explain its story, then you didn't do a good enough job of telling it.

I really have no idea why they didn't explain things better. The most I can discern is that they were going for some kind of The Matrix-style plot-explaination format (a little info in the actual game, a little in the trophy descriptions, a little in casual comments by the developer) that just fell flat.

penguinwizard · « **Reply #45 on:** April 11, 2008, 03:32:37 PM »

Oh yeah, forgot about the Dojo. *checks site* Aw, sweet, he's revealed absolutely everything. Or close to it. Complete music list, trophy list, sticker list... awesome, Ludwig von Koopa's a sticker in Brawl!

Hmm, I don't remember the zombie Yoshis from the Mario comics. *checks* Well, I see them as mindless drones in the last act, but that's it. Always surprised me that what's considered the best Super Mario comic ever made has a distinct anime style to it. The later comics didn't have that same kind of look (er, I don't think the Nester comics did either).

jmdblazer · « **Reply #46 on:** April 11, 2008, 04:16:03 PM »

When i played the SSE, I seriously thought Dedede was one of the bad guys and that they betrayed him.

But as it turns out he was one of the main heroes (who knew?) not only that, but he caused the subspace army to take the Halberd

Bag of Magic Food · « **Reply #47 on:** April 11, 2008, 05:04:10 PM »

Quote from: penguinwizard on April 11, 2008, 03:32:37 PM

what's considered the best Super Mario comic ever

What, that German one?

MEGAß¥TE · « **Reply #48 on:** April 11, 2008, 11:24:47 PM »

Quote from: jmdblazer on April 11, 2008, 04:16:03 PM

When i played the SSE, I seriously thought Dedede was one of the bad guys and that they betrayed him.
But as it turns out he was one of the main heroes (who knew?) not only that, but he caused the subspace army to take the Halberd

This is often Dedede's role in Kirby games.

Nintendoobsessed · « **Reply #49 on:** April 13, 2008, 03:00:52 PM »

"Ganondorf pretended to swear allegiance to Master Hand, all the while planning to usurp power from within. Bowser is relatively loyal to Master Hand, but he does not care for Ganondorf. Wario cares very little for the actual objective he was given and wants to continue just doing whatever he likes."

You know what bothers me about this post, and the ENTIRE update. This. Does. Not. Explain. PORKY! The only thing he's revealed is that Porky had nothing to do with Tabuu. Well, then what the heck was Porky doing? It was kinda lazy of him to just toss Porky into the fray, although it gives other ideas on if Porky was an independant, army force. Is Giygas somewhere in Our World too???

BP · « **Reply #50 on:** April 13, 2008, 03:04:53 PM »

Porky is actually a mirror image of Pokey from an alternate dimension and the leader of a gang of thugs who look strikingly similar to Primids and Minchbots, and Lucas owes him a huge amount of money.

Ultima Shadow · « **Reply #51 on:** April 13, 2008, 03:26:57 PM »

I just think Pokey/Porky/Potato was just generally being a bully in times of greater stress, striking those already in danger (eg: how sad Lucas looked) and Lucas was just in the wrong place in the wrong time.

Now, I know little about Mother 3, but perhaps the reason Lucas was sad was because Claus had died, even in this continuity? It would explain why he's not playable, at least. Mother 3 spoilers by the way.

Kryssie · « **Reply #52 on:** April 16, 2008, 11:24:09 PM »

The ROB scene was pretty cool :P

I felt sadddddd then he turned out to be good

Suffix · « **Reply #53 on:** April 17, 2008, 01:32:44 AM »

Because he turned out to be good, or because his fellow Robots were being controlled to both kill him and destroy the Isle of Ancients?

Turtlekid1 · « **Reply #54 on:** April 17, 2008, 09:46:34 AM »

I would assume the latter reason... but it raises the question... if he could fight in the first place, why didn't he resist Tabuu/henchmen?

Suffix · « **Reply #55 on:** April 17, 2008, 11:57:07 AM »

Essentially the same reason Zelda surrendered at the beginning of Twilight Princess: a vastly superior force suddenly struck from within, and he didn't want to lose "his brethren" to Tabuu's might.

Subspace, however, doesn't have nearly as decent an explanation as the Twilight.