Author Topic: Why is it I didn't like M&L? (Read 12712 times)

Weegee · « **Reply #15 on:** July 01, 2009, 02:44:00 PM »

EarthBound sounds fine. Conversely, both M&L titles have been travesties in that their respective worlds are left in eternal ruin despite having defeated the final boss countless times. Superstar Saga proved to be my first experience of a game which offers no permanent acknowledgement of having beaten the game, and realizing that fact nearly had me left in tears. Would it have been so difficult for the producers to, say, give the player a chance to save after the credits, reconstruct Beanbean Castle Town to its former glory and oust Bowletta from Bowser's Castle for good?

BP · « **Reply #16 on:** July 01, 2009, 03:05:55 PM »

That's a crazy claim. What games did you play before M&L? Most games in general don't do anything when you beat them but show you the ending, the credits, and freeze (to make you reset). Or at least, that's how it was until people started not caring about how good a game is if there's no "replay value..."

Turtlekid1 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 01, 2009, 03:07:47 PM »

The concept of saving after the final boss, or starting a "challenge mode/hero mode/second quest" were completely foreign to me until I played Ratchet and Clank 3.

Kimimaru · « **Reply #18 on:** July 01, 2009, 07:16:41 PM »

Most games don't have anything after defeating the final boss. I noticed that older games just froze after the "The End" sign and newer games allowed you to press "Start" after the "The End" sign and go back to the title screen. To my knowledge there are very few games that allow you to explore the world after the villian has been defeated.

Fawful Fan · « **Reply #19 on:** July 02, 2009, 05:33:06 PM »

I personally hated how the 2nd and 3rd Paper Mario games allowed you to save after the final boss. To me it just limits the game's replayability since you can't re-fight the final boss or re-watch the ending. Imagine if you could save at the end of, for example, Donkey Kong Country 2. You wouldn't have a game to play since all the levels would be destroyed and submerged underwater!

As for the topic's original inquiry: I have no idea. I love the M&L series for its unique gameplay and wacky story/humor and can't understand why anybody wouldn't love it. Tv_Themes, did you at least enjoy the characters or story? Do you not like the style of the games, or maybe the 'simultaneously control multiple characters' gameplay setup is not appealing to you?

Weegee · « **Reply #20 on:** July 02, 2009, 10:34:44 PM »

Permission to throttle Fawful Fan for having an opinion which differs from mine? I can't honestly agree with a single point made in the first half of his post. First, a game's "replayability" generally refers to its enjoyability in subsequent play-throughs after having finished it at least once. Personally, even dwelling on the thought of a technically "unbeatable" final boss makes my stomach churn, knowing that fighting it is for nothing. In Weegee's opinion, eternal in-game gratification for one's feats is much more worthwhile than the ability to view a game's credits for the umpteenth time. It could almost be said that witholding recognition from the player shows a lack of inegrity on the programmers' part. I suppose that my greatest qualm against these titles isn't that their respective final foes cannot be permanently vanquished, but that they deliberately prevent the player from "keeping" a good, satisfying ending. This is how I'd have handled each Mario RPG's endings:

Super Mario RPG: Make Culex and/or Jinx re-fightable instead of Smithy. That way, the player could actually collect all seven Star Pieces and restore peace to the Mushroom Kingdom, but yet have tough foes to conquer afterwards.
Paper Mario: Return Peach's Castle to Toad Town, thus removing the veil of Peach-centric worry that enshrouds the city's inhabitants. Screw Bowser's Castle.
Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door: I believe that Nintendo handled this game perfectly: You save Peach and are subsequently provided with a reason for Mario's return and the Princess' absence. For those who would prefer to ***** about there being little to after defeating the Shadow Queen, the Pit of 100 Trials should more than suffice. I do agree that Bonetail should be re-fightable, however.
Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga: As mentioned earlier, this game's "conclusion" (or lack thereof) just about had me in tears. Why couldn't Nintendo have taken the effort to eliminate Bowletta after her defeat and restore Beanbean Castle Town to its former glory? What's worst is that the town is not only in eternal ruins, but virtually unexplorable to boot due to the abundance of locked doors.
Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time: Stuffwell's option to return the player to a time before having saved the Princess caught me completely off-guard and made my stomach drop. My apparently-too-high expectations included gaining the ability to visit each locale in its Shroob-infested past and its hopeful present after beating the game. Heck, some extra-powerful non-Shroob enemies could have replaced the extra-terrestrial invaders.
Super Paper Mario: See PM:TTYD, but remove the part about Peach and replace "Shadow Queen" with "Count Bleck and Super Dimentio".

Lastly, as for the example of DKC2, the ending would have been different if the player had been able to save after it.

BP · « **Reply #21 on:** July 03, 2009, 05:33:18 AM »

The Pit of 100 Trials has become Chapter 7 bonus material to me.

Tv_Themes · « **Reply #22 on:** July 03, 2009, 09:02:00 AM »

Oh the Pit of 100 Trials...

The end of that was cruel, cruel, cruel.

Seriously, after all that I was expecting like a mountain of treasure (seriously, I was) but then that wretched Bonetail shows up. I used all my power-ups getting to the bottom, and I have a final boss to beat? Good heavens! Of course, Bonetail pwned me.

But back on topic, when it comes to SS, I got as far as Bowsers Castle, but gave up. It was one of the last Koopalings who I found to be too tough, actually no, it was Fawful I couldn't beat. As for PiT, I think I gave up at this Shroob Ship refueling boss. The one that the babies sabotage.

Fawful Fan · « **Reply #23 on:** July 03, 2009, 10:35:21 AM »

Quote

Personally, even dwelling on the thought of a technically "unbeatable" final boss makes my stomach churn, knowing that fighting it is for nothing.

Well, at least for me, it's not "fighting for nothing" because I still personally experience the ending, even if my save file cannot "save" it. As long as I can still save my stats/completion percentage I'll be happy.

Quote

Lastly, as for the example of DKC2, the ending would have been different if the player had been able to save after it.

But I think that would have ruined an awesome ending for the sake of not being able to refight the final boss. Actually, now that I think about it, DKC2 does save after the final boss, but it only saves the stats, not the story, so you can replay any part again. I guess for me I just want games to have a replay option, either in the main menu or in the original file itself, so that I can relive my favorite moments without having to churn through the entire game all over again.

Tv_Themes · « **Reply #24 on:** July 03, 2009, 09:44:35 PM »

It is DKC3 that erases your file after 100%ing the game. That upset me so much.

Weegee · « **Reply #25 on:** July 03, 2009, 11:05:57 PM »

...Really? I'm suddenly feeling compelled to erase that game from my Virtual Console game assortment.

Lizard Dude · « **Reply #26 on:** July 03, 2009, 11:25:02 PM »

Uh, I don't think that's true.

---

Besides non-story games with unlocks (Guitar Hero, Brawl), save files have no value to me. If all my RPG/FPS/RTS/platformer save files got deleted right now I wouldn't care one whit, except for the games I was currently playing. If I replay a game, I usually save over the old file even if there are empty slots. If I quit a game before beating it but come back to it a few months later I will not use the old save. I will start a new one.

The value of games is the journey, not having 100% save files sitting around. You people are messed up.

Weegee · « **Reply #27 on:** July 04, 2009, 01:06:32 AM »

Weegee begs to differ. The gratification of thoroughly completing a game is, in my opinion, much of the reason for playing them. This statement will undoubtedly attract a boatload of flack from fellow readers, but: I'd rather be bored with a finished game than exasperated with one which, say, forces the player to re-start every day upon resetting the console. I prefer to see perfect files in games which require true dedication to achieve as being one's virtual trophy cabinet. I agree that platformers and the like are geared towards being constantly replayed, but the same can't be said about numerous RPG's. Restarting a Pokemon file which I've logged hundreds of hours into can be likened to melting my proverbial Olympic gold medal into napkin rings, although it's apparent that the same can't be said for others here.

I agree that much of a game's value is found in the journey. However, an admirable file can act as a testament to one's dedication, be a permanent keepsake of the game's journey, and just cause a case of the warm fuzzies every time you see it... in my opinion, of course.

Chupperson Weird · « **Reply #28 on:** July 04, 2009, 01:30:13 AM »

Your mistake was logging hundreds of hours in one game.

Weegee · « **Reply #29 on:** July 04, 2009, 01:32:48 AM »

Could be worse.