Author Topic: Mariology (serious posts wanted) (Read 476334 times)

Toad · « **Reply #1875 on:** June 30, 2010, 03:39:20 PM »

The Starman is the embodiment of the Mushroom Kingdom's wishes. It grants Mario godlike stats for a short time because the citizens really want him to win.

Starmen and Power Stars are the same, but Power Stars power buildings/vehicles, and Starmen power people (human, mushroom, etc..)

The Chef · « **Reply #1876 on:** June 30, 2010, 05:23:30 PM »

Hmm...except Mario isn't the only one who can use Starmen. Pretty much anyone who's been playable in a game that features Starmen (and there's a LOT) have been able to use them.

I'm going with Weegee's idea about Starmen and Power Stars being the same thing.

Toad · « **Reply #1877 on:** June 30, 2010, 08:17:16 PM »

I basically said the same thing, but ok. At least we're on the same page. :)

EpicGyllynn · « **Reply #1878 on:** July 01, 2010, 09:55:20 PM »

Quote from: The Chef on June 30, 2010, 05:23:30 PM

Hmm...except Mario isn't the only one who can use Starmen. Pretty much anyone who's been playable in a game that features Starmen (and there's a LOT) have been able to use them.

I'm going with Weegee's idea about Starmen and Power Stars being the same thing.

I think the original idea was that they where the same thing, but Nintendo probably changed Starman to Rainbow Stars to avoid confusion.

EpicGyllynn · « **Reply #1879 on:** July 01, 2010, 10:02:24 PM »

I don't mean to change topics but I was wondering, how many people consider Yoshi's Safari to be canon? I don't because it was really only created to promote the Super Scope, and I don't think it was meant to contribute to the series continuity, asuming, of course, that there is one(which I believe there is).

Weegee · « **Reply #1880 on:** July 01, 2010, 11:05:54 PM »

Aren't all Mario games considered canon? Other than those edutainment titles released only for PC, every game is technically part of the "official" Mario universe.

The Chef · « **Reply #1881 on:** July 02, 2010, 09:06:42 AM »

Mario doesn't have an official canon. Unless Nintendo comes out and says "these games never happened", the terms "canon" and "non-canon" can't really be applied to Mario.The only thing I'm pretty sure Nintendo no longer acknowledges are the edutainment games Weegee just mentioned.

However, Mario DOES have continuity. If he didn't, we wouldn't see recurring elements nor would there be the occasional acknowledgement of past events. Yoshi's Safari IS in continuity with the rest of the series because it features Mario and Yoshi being called over to another kingdom to fight the Koopalings again. What's there to indicate otherwise?

EpicGyllynn · « **Reply #1882 on:** July 02, 2010, 07:38:08 PM »

Quote from: The Chef on July 02, 2010, 09:06:42 AM

Mario doesn't have an official canon. Unless Nintendo comes out and says "these games never happened", the terms "canon" and "non-canon" can't really be applied to Mario.The only thing I'm pretty sure Nintendo no longer acknowledges are the edutainment games Weegee just mentioned.

However, Mario DOES have continuity. If he didn't, we wouldn't see recurring elements nor would there be the occasional acknowledgement of past events. Yoshi's Safari IS in continuity with the rest of the series because it features Mario and Yoshi being called over to another kingdom to fight the Koopalings again. What's there to indicate otherwise?

I am aware that there is no "official" Mario canon, nor is there an "official" Zelda canon, but that does'nt stop fans from speculating what they THINK is canon. I know the series has continuity which is why I speculate the possible canonocity of it's games. When I am deciding whether or not I believe a spin-off is canon, I base my opinion on two things: 1) Does it contradict the Main Series? And 2) Is it recognized as "official" by Nintendo? One example being Super Mario RPG, does it contradict the Main Series(the different map is not a contradiction, just an inconsistency)? No. Is it recognized as "official" by Nintendo(of Japan)? Yes. Now lets apply the same thing to the Super Show, does it contadict the Main Series? Yes(the Games clearly depict the Bros. being born in TMK). Is it considered "official" by Nintendo? While it was considered "official" Mario media by NOA, it was never recognized in ANY way by the parent Company(in Japan). Even now NOA shows no sighns of recognition towards the series. Based on these questions I can assume that SMRPG is "canon", and that the Super Show is not. After applying these to Yoshi's Safari, it seems apppropiate for me to add them to MY "canon", but I am still a little on the edge about it.

EpicGyllynn · « **Reply #1883 on:** July 02, 2010, 07:49:06 PM »

Quote from: EpicGyllynn on July 02, 2010, 07:38:08 PM

I am aware that there is no "official" Mario canon, nor is there an "official" Zelda canon, but that does'nt stop fans from speculating what they THINK is canon. I know the series has continuity which is why I speculate the possible canonocity of it's games. When I am deciding whether or not I believe a spin-off is canon, I base my opinion on two things: 1) Does it contradict the Main Series? And 2) Is it recognized as "official" by Nintendo? One example being Super Mario RPG, does it contradict the Main Series(the different map is not a contradiction, just an inconsistency)? No. Is it recognized as "official" by Nintendo(of Japan)? Yes. Now lets apply the same thing to the Super Show, does it contadict the Main Series? Yes(the Games clearly depict the Bros. being born in TMK). Is it considered "official" by Nintendo? While it was considered "official" Mario media by NOA, it was never recognized in ANY way by the parent Company(in Japan). Even now NOA shows no sighns of recognition towards the series. Based on these questions I can assume that SMRPG is "canon", and that the Super Show is not. After applying these to Yoshi's Safari, it seems apppropiate for me to add them to MY "canon", but I am still a little on the edge about it.

But before people start using the "There is NO Mario Canon" line against me, I know that there is no "Official" canon, but we as fans are free to speculate, and the criteria in my above post is what I base those speculations on.

The Chef · « **Reply #1884 on:** July 02, 2010, 10:06:02 PM »

Yoshi's Safari is consistent and acknowledged. Most Mario games fall into that category. The only ones that don't are the edutainment/other titles released for non-Nintendo systems.

Really, the only contradictions that typically happen are so minor there shouldn't be much of a debate on canonocity. Some things even have explanations that people don't even realize exist, such as Partners in Time explaining why Baby Mario can co-exist with his present self, or Bowser's Inside Story explaining how Bowser can change size at the drop of a hat.

Perhaps the only really major continuity screw-up in the Marioverse is Yoshi's Island DS. which throws out any previously established notion of how old the characters are (Peach and DK in particular) and adds in that stupid "Star Child" backstory. Fine example of why they've typically avoided giving the characters elaborate backstories in previous games.

EpicGyllynn · « **Reply #1885 on:** July 03, 2010, 02:56:28 PM »

Quote from: The Chef on July 02, 2010, 10:06:02 PM

Yoshi's Safari is consistent and acknowledged. Most Mario games fall into that category. The only ones that don't are the edutainment/other titles released for non-Nintendo systems.

Really, the only contradictions that typically happen are so minor there shouldn't be much of a debate on canonocity. Some things even have explanations that people don't even realize exist, such as Partners in Time explaining why Baby Mario can co-exist with his present self, or Bowser's Inside Story explaining how Bowser can change size at the drop of a hat.

Perhaps the only really major continuity screw-up in the Marioverse is Yoshi's Island DS. which throws out any previously established notion of how old the characters are (Peach and DK in particular) and adds in that stupid "Star Child" backstory. Fine example of why they've typically avoided giving the characters elaborate backstories in previous games.

I knew about the timehole thing, but this was the first I've heard someone use Bowser's Inside Story as an explanation for Bowser's size incosistency(I guess we can't call it that anymore). I think we can all agree that the edutainments are best left out, but I still question the Party games(Did they really happen? Do they have alternate continuity? Is there a special Party dimmension, etc?). Aside from that, I think that most Mario games(And admittedly, Yoshi's Safari) contribute to that continuity. And I agree with the Yoshi's Island DS part. Heres an idea about a New Topic: Why are Bowser and his minions(Bowser Jr, King Boo, Petey Pirhana, etc.) allowed to compete in the Mushroom Kingdom's annual sporting events?

Weegee · « **Reply #1886 on:** July 03, 2010, 03:25:52 PM »

Quote from: EpicGyllynn on July 03, 2010, 02:56:28 PM

Why are Bowser and his minions(Bowser Jr, King Boo, Petey Pirhana, etc.) allowed to compete in the Mushroom Kingdom's annual sporting events?

They set aside their conflicts, just like in the IRL Olympics.

The Chef · « **Reply #1887 on:** July 03, 2010, 03:44:40 PM »

They're allowed to because they bring in the ratings (and yes, these events are televised, otherwise the Lakitu Bros. camera guy wouldn't be there). Imagine how the Koopa, Boo, and Piranha Plant demographics would feel if they didn't have any representatives to root for. :P

Quote

but I still question the Party games(Did they really happen? Do they have alternate continuity? Is there a special Party dimmension, etc?).

That depends. All of them have plots in some way or another, but Mario Party 2's plot is revealed at the end to be a stage show at the Mario Land theme park. Mario Party 3's plot is debatable considering how it ends with whichever character you picked becoming "the Superstar of the Universe", but it's implied that Luigi is the default character (the cursor is on him at the selection screen, he doesnt have a corresponding Star Stamp, Waluigi is the villain, Waluigi's Island looks like it previously belonged to Luigi).

Mario Party 6's introduction is told entirely via the Miracle Book and is said to take place in "Mario Party World", so perhaps the events of that game are really just a written story. The rest of the Party games all fit pretty well with the exception of some odd out-of-character moments (really, Mario not being able to stand up to Bowser? Bowser suddenly turning nice for no reason? Mario and Wario not hating each other's guts?), though those could probably be explained away one way or the other (Wario could easily be an uninvited party crasher for instance).

Toad · « **Reply #1888 on:** July 03, 2010, 06:15:46 PM »

Quote from: The Chef on July 03, 2010, 03:44:40 PM

Piranha Plant... root

XD

Quote from: The Chef on July 03, 2010, 03:44:40 PM

The rest of the Party games all fit pretty well with the exception of some odd out-of-character moments (really, Mario not being able to stand up to Bowser? Bowser suddenly turning nice for no reason? Mario and Wario not hating each other's guts?), though those could probably be explained away one way or the other (Wario could easily be an uninvited party crasher for instance).

If you think of them moreso as board game pieces or actors, these become less out of character. (Kinda like the Muppets: off-stage they all know/hang out with eachother, but for the movies/shows/etc, the play their parts)

The Chef · « **Reply #1889 on:** July 03, 2010, 11:53:02 PM »

That would only apply in the case of MP2 and MP6 as I just pointed out. In the rest of the games it definitely comes off as odd, since there's nothing to indicate any lack of "canonocity".