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Author Topic: Religion  (Read 71550 times)

Sapphira

  • Inquiring
« Reply #165 on: May 24, 2003, 10:23:09 PM »
"Excluding that mathematical knowledge and other basic intelligence, which were not given to me by God, but rather by genetics."
 --And how did these genetics come to exist? Freak, random coincidence? You got yours from your parents, your parents from their parents, and so forth until it goes all the way back to the first humans to ever exist. Where, then, did they get THEIR genetics from, if God didn't create them?

"God does things that defy written laws of chemistry. George Washington didn't."
--You can break your own laws if YOU created them. God is not bound by laws of chemistry, physics, etc. because he is the one who wrote them. We only discovered them. Since we are not God, we are bound by these laws.

Think of it this way: We are bound by the laws of gravity because of the magnetic pull of the Earth. But in outer space, these laws go out the window, for space is not bound by this gravitational pull. While we are bound by this law, that doesn't mean EVERYTHING else in a DIFFERENT senario IS bound by it.

Another point. Before 1492, people did not know of the existance of the Americas (or Western World.) Just because they didn't know about it, did that mean it didn't exist? Once they DISCOVERED them, THEN they realized they existed. If you don't know there's a God, that doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Maybe if you search hard enough and have a little faith, you'll realize his existance is real.

"The main reason I don't believe in God is not because I can't see Him, it is because I cannot believe that the things He has supposedly done even can be done. I'd like to see someone pull fish out of midair. I really would. Then I'd believe."
--I believe you just answered your own question as to why God has miracles happen.

"Of course, I don't pray for anything, being aetheist. I really don't have experiences with praying and then having something good happen."
--If you ever had a bit of faith, try it sometime. God ALWAYS answers prayers, although they may not always be the answer you want. Whether he says "yes" or "no" or "wait a while longer," depends if it's truly what's best.


--------------------
Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
"The surest way to happiness is to lose yourself in a cause greater than yourself."

Luigison

  • Old Person™
« Reply #166 on: May 24, 2003, 10:44:00 PM »
Miracles, miracles.  I personally believe that most of the miracles in the Bible are parables and not ment to be taken literally.  Anyway, I also 'believe' that religion is to be taken on faith and cannot be proven or disproven with science or logic.  Having said that I am a creationist and a scienctist, but think that Christian Science is neither Christian nor Science.  It's kind of like someone saying that a specific kind of music is the best and then trying to prove it.  
“Evolution has shaped us with perceptions that allow us to survive. But part of that involves hiding from us the stuff we don’t need to know."

Insane Steve

  • Professional Cynic
« Reply #167 on: May 24, 2003, 10:56:00 PM »
Bleh, so you are saying miracles happen so that the people who see them believe in God? I think I've discoved two reasons why you believe in God and I don't:

1. You think far more abstractly than I do. At least I think this from what I can see. Case in point: You're a great writer, from what I remember... a great artist as well, and you say you are execellent at verbal-type skills. You have the ability to throw out these laws every so often so that you can explain things.

Me? I'm definately a tangible/logical thinker. I think by a strict guideline of laws, thoeries, and personal observations; and when these are conflicted in any way, I defy them. For example, when I read that God can do things that by my standards are impossible, I dismiss Him. I have a brilliant mathematical mind, and math is essentially logic... in a slightly more refined matter. There are really no exceptions to mathematics. Everything has an order. You don't have to deal with creating fish out of nowhere in mathematics.

2. Your experiences involving God have been far more positive than mine. Of course, your experiences with a lot of things have been more positive than mine. Example: You pray to God, something good happens at almost exactly the same time.

I was just like you, back when I was little. Back in 2nd grade, I used to pray that all the other kids would stop making fun of me for no reason. You know what? It only got worse. I gave up: Me, living by my logical laws of everything, saw that something wasn't working, so I merely dropped it. Oddly, after I stopped praying and gave up on God for a while, things actually DID improve little by little. Of course, I'm permanently ruined, but that's of no importance.

The way I think: You do what works for you. If it doesn't work, I stop it and do something ese that DOES work. I've found nothing that's worked for my paticular problem. Religion is included in this list. It is my constant struggles with bad experiences in my life that makes me a pessimist.

I mentioned about the Ten Laws I Live By in another thread. I think reading them may grant you SOME reasoning for why I don't believe in God.

1. Don't trust anyone fully. Maybe family, that's about it. It is said that a true friend stabs you in the front. Of course, not trusting this "friend" results in you not being stabbed at all.

2. The Golden Rule works fine; that is, if you don't know the person in question. If you do, the Platinum Rule takes precedence. This rule states:

"Do unto others as they have done unto you."

3. Everyone has a place in the world. People, in order to be at their fullest potential, should find the thing they are best at and refine it until it becomes useful to others.

4. Murphy's Law applies to everything.

5. Don't judge others by what they like; judge them by what they ARE like. (I typed this one.)

6. Tact is the #1 deterrant to progress. When people today ask for your opinion on something, they are really asking "What do I want to hear from you about it?" Tell people EXACTLY what you think about something.

7. People in the world are classified under three categories: Those with one chance, those with 0 chances, and those with an infinite number of chances. The number of chances you get is directly proportional to the amount of money you have. Other factors play a role, though.

8. Allow you don't realise it, luck plays a role in EVERYTHING. There are no exceptions. It just plays such a small role in certain things that most people don't see it.

9. The importance of your life to others is inversely proportional to the amount to are appreciated for it. For example, teachers get maybe $40,000 a year for radically influencing a child's life, Basketball benchwarmers make 13 times that for doing nothing but sitting on a bench and watching basketball games.

10. The ultimate goal of society is to make everyone equal by making them unequal.

Read those for some hints as to why I am aetheist. Actually, I believe in nothing. I JUST realised that, too. I'm too despondant to believe in anything. Everything lets me down. Including myself.

So yea, Actually, I'm not relgious because the events that have happened to me have made it impossible for me to believe in ANYTHING.

Well, let me make a revision to that statement. I believe in anything that is tangible, as well as anything that's happened and has been proved. I do NOT believe in anything in the future, nor do I believe in current events, or anything that sounds incledulous to me. (Like religion, or the notion that I'll live to be 21.) SO yea.

I'm a real piece of work, aren't I? I've given up on everything. Yay.

Congratulations! You have just been blessed by the wisdom of Steve.

Edited by - Insane Steve on 5/24/2003 10:01:47 PM
~I.S.~

Insane Steve

  • Professional Cynic
« Reply #168 on: May 24, 2003, 11:13:53 PM »
Actually, scratch it. I don't know what I believe in anymore. Depends on what kind of mood I am in, I guess. All I know is that I haven't believed in a relgion for many years.

Congratulations! You have just been blessed by the wisdom of Steve.
~I.S.~

Sapphira

  • Inquiring
« Reply #169 on: May 24, 2003, 11:22:14 PM »
*Bangs head on keyboard* Ouch!
*Sigh*sigh* Why do I feel so alone here... Somebody help me out, here!!

Most things in the Bible ARE to be taken literally. Some, however, are metaphoric, such as the *parables* of Jesus, which are ways to explain something in an easier, more close-to-home way something that is TRUE.
A lot of the metaphoric stuff, if you look CLOSELY, actually is stated somehow that is IS metaphoric.

Other passages, however, have puzzled theologists for centuries as to whether certain parts are to be taken literally or metaphorically or both. Mostly, I'm thinking of the book of Revelation. However, since it's talking about the end times from a vision of John, whom lived in a time WAY before ours, he describes the events the best he can explain them at that time. Some of it might have to be metaphoric in order to explain the future to the people of his time.

One of the things he descibes sounds kinda like a helicopter. I mean, how would YOU descibe a helicopter--this flying, whirring "machinery"? The most advanced transportation they had were chariots and ships. Heck, how could they even define "machine"?

While some things should be seen as metaphoric, that DEFINITELY DOESN'T mean the whole thing is metaphoric. Look at all those prophecies, how many are VERY, VERY specific and came EXACTLY true, the way it said it would.

NOTHING in the Bible can ACTUALLY be PROVEN false. Most of it, in fact atcually HAS BEEN proven true. Examples:
--There ACTUALLY was a person named Jesus. Just recently, an around-2000-year-old tombstone-like thing had engraved on it, "James, brother of Jesus, son of Joseph."  The Bible CLEARLY says that Jesus's earthly dad's name was Joseph, and he also had a brother named James. TIME magazine, I believe, who wrote this article said that the odds that those three names in those three family relationships were so thin, that it could only be THE James, THE Jesus, and THE Joseph. Whether or not you believe Jesus is God's Son (or even that God exists), there is NO WAY to deny this person did not walk the earth.

--Pieces of a very ancient, HUGE boat were found buried beneath the top of a mountain. Same EXACT material Noah's Ark was built of, same EXACT mountain the Bible says it landed on when the flood receded. Besides all that, how could a HUGE, Massive boat like that get ALL THE WAY to the TOP of a tall mountain unless the earth was flooded entirely and the boat landed there when the waters drained. Noah's Ark was REAL.

There are MANY, MANY more! So much more, that I can't possibly say them all. If those things actually DID happen, and NOTHING has been PROVEN wrong about the Bible, why shouldn't we believe the rest of it's true, too?

--------------------
Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
"The surest way to happiness is to lose yourself in a cause greater than yourself."

Luigison

  • Old Person™
« Reply #170 on: May 24, 2003, 11:31:40 PM »
I don't think God intends for "Faith" to be based on "Proof".  Even if the event about parts of a massive boat on a mountain as described in the Bible are true.  It does not prove the existance of a God.  If it could be proved that God exists then there would be no believe or faith.  Only fact.  There may in fact be a God (as I believe), but I he/she/it wants us to make up our own minds instead of he/she/it proving his/her/its existence.

Edited by - Luigison on 5/24/2003 10:39:33 PM
“Evolution has shaped us with perceptions that allow us to survive. But part of that involves hiding from us the stuff we don’t need to know."

Sapphira

  • Inquiring
« Reply #171 on: May 24, 2003, 11:40:32 PM »
God uses proofs to get us to think, "If that's true, than maybe THIS whole thing IS true."
While "that" is proven, and "this" is not, because "that" is, through faith we believe "this," too, is true.

...Was that too confusing...?

--------------------
Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
"The surest way to happiness is to lose yourself in a cause greater than yourself."

Luigison

  • Old Person™
« Reply #172 on: May 24, 2003, 11:47:13 PM »
Okay, I will accept "That".
“Evolution has shaped us with perceptions that allow us to survive. But part of that involves hiding from us the stuff we don’t need to know."

Sapphira

  • Inquiring
« Reply #173 on: May 24, 2003, 11:51:39 PM »
Heh.
*collapses from explaination-overload, feeling this is futile...*

Gah! My mom told me to go to bed! It's 1:52 in the morning! Well, *I* for one, have church to go to in the morning. :P  Oh well, she'll understand that this is for a good cause, whether you guys agree or not.

G'night!

--------------------
Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
"The surest way to happiness is to lose yourself in a cause greater than yourself."

Chupperson Weird

  • Not interested.
« Reply #174 on: May 25, 2003, 12:31:55 AM »
Dang. Just missed you guys.
Ah well. Anyway, I have my two cents to put in.

First off, I greatly enjoyed Luigison's post with the article about "Quantum God."

Uhh, Sapphira, what were you exactly before March 1994?

Now, on to my views, in more detail, this time:

Going back a few posts, to Steve's question, "...and if [God] did watch over us all, why were we made flawed in the first place?"
I think it's so we can have discussions like this.

As for the pillar of salt thing, the way I understand it, anything is possible. Anything at all. However, the thing is, most stuff just isn't probable enough to happen. But, say, alter the probabilities just an infinitesimal amount, and someone could turn into a pillar of salt. Plus, who's to say that it was actually salt? It could have been something someone thought was salt. Or someone could have misunderstood the story long ago, before it was written in The Bible.

Same goes with the loaves and fishes. It's simple to me, really. You can reconfigure molecules of any type to create molecules of a different type. They don't come from nowhere; they came from reconfigured air or other insubstantial matter. Air is not non-matter, obviously.

Another quote: "This occurred due to a certain law of science which really hasn't been discovered yet. Because conditions allowed for a certain group of organisms to exist, they did."
This sounds less substantial than the existence of God, in my opinion. The "law of science which really hasn't been discovered yet" could very well be God's will. There are just too many "undiscovered scientific laws" for me to believe that there is not some greater purposeful force at work.


But I have personal experience as well. Once, I was talking about whether God exists or not, and at one point I said something to the effect of "God must be real," and I had reasons for that that I can't think of now. Anyway, I had come to that conclusion. A few seconds later, I was in space, and I could see for galaxies. Then I was back in my own body. Now this sounds freakishly close to the theory of God in the article Luigison posted.

I mean, this guy I knew recently died of cancer. People prayed for him. A lot. All the time. And he was an awesome guy. But he died anyway. And there have been other things. I can understand where you're coming from somewhat from things like these, but they aren't enough to make me denounce God. Nothing is.

I seriously believe that God will do something with your life someday, Steve.

Edited by - Chupperson Weird on 5/24/2003 11:33:14 PM
That was a joke.

« Reply #175 on: May 25, 2003, 01:29:15 AM »
Ok, I take the side of Creationism and back up Sapphira's arguments 100%.

I too, have a personal relationship with THE God and have seen miracles of mine own come about due to praying and having faith.  Many of which I will post later.

As far as proof goes, I can add a tidbit of info against the age of the Earth.  A book called "The Human Genome" (I can't remember the author) did a study on where humans came from.  She used our own bodies to determine that the first humans came about 8000 years ago, and that all humans came from that family.

Several groups including Atheists, Evolutionists, and Scientists tried to disprove her findings because the study proved that Evolution and other "theories" did not happen and are false.

The research against this book  actually found that after the humans came to be, there was also a point in time that the whole world came down to 3 families.  This would be none other than Shem, Ham, and Japheth (Noah's sons).

So this information is mostly hidden from the general public.  I do not know exactly all of the details invoving this book.  But if you are interested, I reccommend anyone to read it.


Also, regarding the pillar of salt issue,
     Salt is a generic word for any combo of any single element with the element Sodium.  Also, when a person dies, most of their body turns into one of these salts, but I can't remember which one.  Maybe....KCl?

Anyway, I have spoken.

God Bless.

Sapphira

  • Inquiring
« Reply #176 on: May 25, 2003, 11:13:57 AM »
*Sigh* Thank you! Finally some more people here to help me out! :)

"Uhh, Sapphira, what were you exactly before March 1994?"
--Not a Christian. Here is was most people who call themselves "Christians" misinterpret: You go to church, believe in God, believe in Jesus, and even believe he's God's Son. That does NOT make you a Christian. SATAN and his FOLLOWERS believe all that. Does that make THEM Christians? Of course not. Believing is not what makes you one, ACCEPTING that all that happened is what does and wanting to COMMIT your life to God is what does.

I was born and raised in a Christian household. Believed in God and Jesus and all the aforementioned stuff. I even went to church every Sunday.
But I hadn't ACCEPTED it or COMMITTED myself to God, nor admit that I was a sinful person. In March '94, that is when I finally did, at the age of 7 1/2.

--------------------
Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.
"The surest way to happiness is to lose yourself in a cause greater than yourself."

Black Mage

  • HP 1018 MP 685
« Reply #177 on: May 25, 2003, 11:25:29 AM »
 Yikes, Insane Steve Versus the world. ;D

 Anyway, it seems you guys didn't leave me much to touch on, as you've done it yourselves. However, there was one thing I wanted to mention;

 "8. Allow you don't realise it, luck plays a role in EVERYTHING. There are no exceptions. It just plays such a small role in certain things that most people don't see it."

 Could you do me a favor, Steve? Thanks. Could you scientifically prove luck for me? I mean, since everything must be proven and such. Otherwise it sounds a lot like God, don't you think? Let me expand on this;

Although you may not realize it, God plays a role in everything. No exceptions. While he may play a large role in some people's lives, he may play a smaller role in others. This may be due to the fact that these people are not letting him. And so, people may not notice him.

 Sounds awfully similar, huh? How can you believe in one and deny the other?

Sapphira

  • Inquiring
« Reply #178 on: May 25, 2003, 12:21:51 PM »
Good point! Kudos to Black Mage! ;)

1. Don't trust anyone fully. Maybe family, that's about it. It is said that a true friend stabs you in the front. Of course, not trusting this "friend" results in you not being stabbed at all.
--It also allows you to not have any true friends. A back-stabber (er..."front"-stabber) was NEVER your friend. A bad friend tells you what you want to hear, even if you're wrong. A GOOD and TRUE friend speaks the truth in love, and WANTS to help you get it right.

2. The Golden Rule works fine; that is, if you don't know the person in question. If you do, the Platinum Rule takes precedence. This rule states:
"Do unto others as they have done unto you."
--With that attitude, you're just as bad as them. Have you ever actually TRIED the Golden Rule? The results are surprising.

3. Everyone has a place in the world. People, in order to be at their fullest potential, should find the thing they are best at and refine it until it becomes useful to others.
--I actually agree with you on this one.

4. Murphy's Law applies to everything.
--With that attitude, I'm sure it will. But that's because your undying pessimism only allows you to SEE the worst in every scenario, while most things DO have some good light to them, though some may be disguised quite well.
But what about when something GOOD *DOES* happen? Breaks the Law of Murphy, now, doesn't it?
Very rarely is there a situation in which the worse DOES happen. If you think about it, FAR worse of a thing could have happened.

Example: 9/11/01. Terrorist attacks. THIS is the WORST that could've happened:
--The first plane could have crashed a lot lower in the tower, trapping and killing all the people above. Instead, it hit much higher, killing giving most of the people a chance to escape.
--The time between the first and second crash could've been closer together. Instead, while the plane DID crash lower, it gave enough time for most of the people in the second tower to evacuate.
--The towers fell STRAIGHT down from their spot. They could have fallen in another direction, destroying MUCH, MUCH more in the process.
--The 4th plane which crashed in Pennsylvania. The plane WAS heading toward D.C., which is assumed to be a planned attack on our Nation's Capitol. Instead, the people on the plane figured out what was going on and were able to stop them. They DID lose their lives, but they were also heroes. The plane crashed in a remote area. It could have been a major populated area. THOUSANDS of more lives could have been lost, had it crashed in a populated area or continued its destination to DC.

While a TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE disaster occurred, by FAR it could have been MUCH, MUCH worse.

5. Don't judge others by what they like; judge them by what they ARE like. (I typed this one.)
--Again, I agree with this one. But hate the sin, not the person.

6. Tact is the #1 deterrant to progress. When people today ask for your opinion on something, they are really asking "What do I want to hear from you about it?" Tell people EXACTLY what you think about something.
--Again, I agree. Some situations you have to weave your way around, or you COULD get into serious, unnecessary trouble.

7. People in the world are classified under three categories: Those with one chance, those with 0 chances, and those with an infinite number of chances. The number of chances you get is directly proportional to the amount of money you have. Other factors play a role, though.
--Untrue. While some seem to be "luckier" than others, everybody ALWAYS gets at least one chance, in fact more. God ALWAYS gives us a chance. Whether we chose to ignore it or accept it is our own doing.

Black Mage already pointed out #8.

9. The importance of your life to others is inversely proportional to the amount to are appreciated for it. For example, teachers get maybe $40,000 a year for radically influencing a child's life, Basketball benchwarmers make 13 times that for doing nothing but sitting on a bench and watching basketball games.
--'Tis a twisted society we live in, no?

10. The ultimate goal of society is to make everyone equal by making them unequal.
--A little extreme, there. I see your point, though. By treating everyone equally does NOT make it equal. Fairness and equality are essntially opposites. Everyone is different, so trying to make us all the same would be unfair and unequal.

Example: Let's say there's a family with three grown children. One is in a serious financial crisis because of someone else's evil, manipulative doing.
EQUALNESS would be helping the one kid in crisis by giving them some money. Then, in order to make it "Equal," they would give the same amount of money to the other kids who are not in financial need. While that is EQUAL, it is not FAIR.
FAIRNESS would be giving the kid who needs  money in their time of need, while leaving the other two out of it. FAIRNESS would be that the parents would help out the other kids if THEY ever got into that situation. It would NOT be fair, however, if the parents were never willing to help the other 2 out if they were in a crisis.

Example 2: Billy and Sally both got A's on their report cards. Mom gives them each a reward.
EQUALNESS: Both get to go to the shooting range. Did same rewardable thing, so they get the same reward.  Billy LOVES to go to the shooting range. For Sally, it's more of a punishment. Equal, but not fair.
FAIRNESS: Billy gets to go to the shooting range, since he loves it. Sally gets to have a new video game, because that's what SHE loves. Not equal, but fair. (BTW, those examples are something my brother and I would chose as our "reward" for something. :) )

And THAT took me 50 minutes to explain.

--------------------
Deep inside us all is a little green elf telling us to burn things.

Edited by - Sapphira on 5/25/2003 11:25:34 AM
"The surest way to happiness is to lose yourself in a cause greater than yourself."

Watoad

  • Self-evictor
« Reply #179 on: May 25, 2003, 01:12:49 PM »
Hello, everyone. I'm finally posting in this topic. There is one reason I'm doing so: to let you know the truth of my beliefs. I don't want to hide it from you.


Time will not allow me to get into long discussions of the types you've been having. I have not read most of what you've said. That's why I said that my reason for posting here is simply to tell you what I believe—I don't have time to put evidence behind it all. And I apologize to you for that.


To put it simply, I am a Christian. I have faith in one God. That God is the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. He is each of them distinctly and all of them as one. Each of them is God. I have no difficultly believing in this concept—which in many ways makes little sense to humans' incapable minds—because God is all-powerful. He can do anything—anything—except sin. So my ability to understand it has no bearing on whether or not God can do (or be) it.


Another important part of my beliefs is that I'm saved by faith in Jesus. I cannot justify myself before God by behaving well or by doing good deeds. God came to Earth in the human form of Jesus to help us because we cannot help ourselves. I am made righteous through Him, not by my own strength. It is still important for me to resist temptation and to do the right things, but not for the purpose of making God pleased with me. I don't do good works on my own but with the help of the Holy Spirit living within me. Everything in my life should always go back to God; it's about Him, not about me.


Thus, the meaning of life is for me to become more like Jesus Christ. God created us to be like Him in the first place and to have a personal relationship with Him. When this life is over, people will end up in either a good or a bad eternity, depending on their relationship with Him. And that eternity is all about God. Heaven is not just a bunch of pleasure and good feelings but an intimate, perfect union with God. Hell, on the other hand, is complete separation from Him. Happiness in this life, even for those who don't know God, comes from Him.


Well, I said more than I was planning to, but this is a pretty important topic. What I said disagrees with differing ideas presented in here, of course—I do not tolerate all of those other beliefs and opinions, but respect them. I'd appreciate it if you do the same for me.


Again, I give you my apology for not having time to go into this further.


Lizard Dude’s sig is still my favorite.

The weaker you are, the stronger you can become.

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