Author Topic: Vivian = Male? (Paper Mario) (Read 22474 times)

Tv_Themes · « **on:** August 29, 2009, 10:49:12 PM »

Okay, I just read on Tv Tropes (great website btw) that Vivian was male in the Japanese version of Thousand Year Door.

Is this true?

BP · « **Reply #1 on:** August 29, 2009, 11:28:41 PM »

Yes. There should be a website that documents, among other things, the changes between the Japanese and English versions of Mario games. I'd read the heck out of it, and join their forums.

Mr. Wiggles · « **Reply #2 on:** August 29, 2009, 11:35:03 PM »

Are you genuinely asking this question because you want to clear up some confusion or are you asking because you realized you've made some horrible mistakes with those images saved in your computer?

Tv_Themes · « **Reply #3 on:** August 30, 2009, 12:40:44 AM »

My God at least Birdo kinda looks passible for a boy!

Mr. Wiggles · « **Reply #4 on:** August 30, 2009, 01:01:24 AM »

To be fair, he/she did have quite a gut for a spirit.

Also, the lack of visible eyes doesn't help matters much.

Deezer · « **Reply #5 on:** August 30, 2009, 10:46:41 AM »

We covered Vivian here: http://themushroomkingdom.net/pmttyd_j2e.shtml#vivian

Weegee · « **Reply #6 on:** August 30, 2009, 10:50:20 AM »

Gender-bending is actually an everyday occurrence in mainstream Japanese entertainment. See also: Poison, Bridget, Birdo ~~and Futanari.~~-- DON'T

Well, on second thought, feel free to ask my associate Mr. Wiggles about that last one.

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #7 on:** August 30, 2009, 02:58:55 PM »

"Well... nobody's perfect."

Tv_Themes · « **Reply #8 on:** August 30, 2009, 06:33:45 PM »

So...

What about Beldam and Marian just for curiosity sake?

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #9 on:** August 30, 2009, 06:45:13 PM »

No, they're both girls. Vivian is the only boy.

Weegee · « **Reply #10 on:** August 30, 2009, 06:57:42 PM »

+10 internets to ShadowBrain for that reference.

I know that the issue has been tread upon a million times before, but still: Are technically-male characters like Birdo and Vivian actually portrayed as males in Japan? Like, do contemporary Mario titles refer to Birdo as a boy despite ~~her~~ ~~his~~ ITS implied relationship with Yoshi?

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #11 on:** August 30, 2009, 07:57:40 PM »

I feel sorry for Yoshi. They stuck him with the ugliest Mario character ever. A cute female Yoshi with a bow on her head would've been better despite being a tad cliched.

Hell, even Wario has Mona and he's really ugly.

Lizard Dude · « **Reply #12 on:** August 30, 2009, 08:03:43 PM »

http://themushroomkingdom.net/birdo.shtml

Remember when people who came here knew what was on the site?

Weegee · « **Reply #13 on:** August 30, 2009, 08:19:09 PM »

Long story short: She was a he until Nintendo found Americans not to like he-shes, after which he/she became commonly known as a she, as if she had never been a he in the first place.

Lizard Dude · « **Reply #14 on:** August 30, 2009, 09:43:02 PM »

Uh, no. Brawl says Birdo is "indeterminate gender" and Captain Rainbow has actual plot related to Birdo and his man-voice/vibrator.

Tv_Themes · « **Reply #15 on:** August 30, 2009, 10:30:30 PM »

I see this is derailing into another Birdo thread, which will in turn become a Yoshi x Birdo thread.

Back to Vivian... It would have helped more if she/he/it didn't ACT like a heterosexual woman instead of a homosexual man.

Say, was Vivian (or whatever he was called) a gay character?

Weegee · « **Reply #16 on:** August 30, 2009, 10:33:56 PM »

Considering that (s)he confesses her love to Mario at the end of the game, it's a possibility to say the least.

EDIT: THIS JUST IN: The Westboro Baptist Church has just decreed that God now hates Nintendo.

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #17 on:** August 30, 2009, 10:35:25 PM »

Well, how much of that dialogue was modified along with Vivian's gender?

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #18 on:** August 30, 2009, 11:07:19 PM »

I'm pretty [darn] sure Vivian actually kisses him at least once. So...yeah. I'm not sure Nintendo of America would go out of their own way to do that.

Lizard Dude · « **Reply #19 on:** August 30, 2009, 11:40:34 PM »

Vivian wasn't gay, he was transsexual. There's a difference. You're not mentally gay if you're a dude who thinks you're a female.

Mr. Wiggles · « **Reply #20 on:** August 30, 2009, 11:59:49 PM »

Lizard Dude's post reminds of this one time I was in an AIM chat and I linked the others to the profile of this one poster on another board I go to. He was a guy who mentally believed he was a women and claimed to be a lesbian dating another tranny.

A certain member in that chat took offense not at the fact that I was calling him crazy beyond reason, but because I referred to him as a he. Then I got into a two hour argument about what qualifies as male/female.

Good times.

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #21 on:** August 31, 2009, 11:08:27 AM »

Has anybody here ever used the phrase "MORF"?

The Chef · « **Reply #22 on:** August 31, 2009, 02:43:48 PM »

Quote from: Lizard Dude on August 30, 2009, 09:43:02 PM

Uh, no. Brawl says Birdo is "indeterminate gender" .

Brawl also says Kaptain K.Rool is a seperate character from King K.Rool among other errors, so I'd take it with a grain of salt. The Captain Rainbow thing is probably better to go by.

Quote from: Tv_Themes on August 30, 2009, 10:30:30 PM

I see this is derailing into another Birdo thread, which will in turn become a Yoshi x Birdo thread.

You're a jack***.

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #23 on:** August 31, 2009, 03:26:34 PM »

That seems a little harsh...

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #24 on:** August 31, 2009, 04:17:25 PM »

I see this is derailing into another Tv_Themes thread, which will in turn become a The Chef x Tv_Themes thread.

Tv_Themes · « **Reply #25 on:** August 31, 2009, 06:55:36 PM »

I really don't see how that quote makes me a jack***...

All I was doing was saving my own thread from going severely off-topic like my Waluigi Dying thread.

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #26 on:** August 31, 2009, 07:00:07 PM »

On one hand, we have that thread, which presented a legitimate point ("does Waluigi really need to exist anymore?") with an abruptly dark title; on the other, this thread, a legitimate topic already explained in reasonable detail elsewhere on this site (though I won't necessarily fault you for not knowing that). Both had potential for ripe debate at first, but it's only eventual that serious discussion will derail and craziness will prevail.

Marwiio · « **Reply #27 on:** September 04, 2009, 11:09:37 PM »

Um... I could be wrong, but maybe you guys are thinking of this the wrong way?

The Journal and Goombella's tattle both refer to her/him in a questioning way. The journal thing is supposed to be written by Mario, right? That's what I assume at least.

Anyway, Vivian's sisters make fun of her constantly, calling her ugly and other stuff. So couldn't they being calling her a man as a insult to her? Mario and Goombella could have overheard this, and gotten confused about it. (Much like us. XD)

Weegee · « **Reply #28 on:** September 04, 2009, 11:15:21 PM »

The Journal is written from a non-character perspective, and recited by Goombella in battle with her own mannerisms included.

Vivian is a gender-confused boy in the Japanese version, but was "made" into a girl by modifying the translated script for the American release.

Forest Guy · « **Reply #29 on:** September 30, 2009, 10:24:57 PM »

Am I the only person who likes the fact Nintendo localizes gay/transgender/transvestite characters out of my games?

PaperLuigi · « **Reply #30 on:** September 30, 2009, 10:41:27 PM »

Yeah, probably.

Forest Guy · « **Reply #31 on:** September 30, 2009, 11:06:44 PM »

Fair enough.

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #32 on:** October 01, 2009, 07:03:20 AM »

On one hand, you could say it's adding diversity; on the other hand, at least to my American mind, it just seems like provacativeness for the sake of provacativeness.

Reading · « **Reply #33 on:** October 01, 2009, 03:10:46 PM »

Quote from: Forest Guy on September 30, 2009, 10:24:57 PM

Am I the only person who likes the fact Nintendo localizes gay/transgender/transvestite characters out of my games?

I don't have experience with any besides Birdo and Vivian (are there others in other series?), but I'm glad they're female here.

Weegee · « **Reply #34 on:** October 01, 2009, 03:39:37 PM »

Quote from: Forest Guy on September 30, 2009, 10:24:57 PM

Am I the only person who likes the fact Nintendo localizes gay/transgender/transvestite characters out of my games?

It's incredible that PL didn't rape you to death for stating that. Alas, I agree. Japan is simply ~~too~~ ...err, much more liberal with their views toward sexuality. Likewise, an American game with copious amounts of violence or language may be banned or at least censored for Japanese release.

CrossEyed7 · « **Reply #35 on:** October 01, 2009, 03:44:39 PM »

Quote from: Weegee on October 01, 2009, 03:39:37 PM

Japan is simply ~~too~~ ...err, much more liberal with their views toward sexuality.

lol, child rape

Tv_Themes · « **Reply #36 on:** October 01, 2009, 04:32:37 PM »

Quote from: Weegee

Japan is simply too ...err, much more liberal with their views toward sexuality.

Weegee · « **Reply #37 on:** October 01, 2009, 04:35:20 PM »

Quote from: Weegee on October 01, 2009, 03:39:37 PM

Japan is simply ~~too~~ ...err, much more liberal with their views toward sexuality.

Wait a minute...

Tv_Themes · « **Reply #38 on:** October 01, 2009, 05:48:21 PM »

Catch my drift?

~~Though Bashou was not a gender confused nor homosexual, he just had long hair.~~

penguinwizard · « **Reply #39 on:** October 03, 2009, 06:37:48 PM »

When's Captain Rainbow coming out anyway? Or has it been confirmed it's not coming to the US?

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #40 on:** October 03, 2009, 06:45:42 PM »

I think common sense has confirmed that it's not coming to America.

Mr. Wiggles · « **Reply #41 on:** October 03, 2009, 07:32:02 PM »

Quote from: Tv_Themes on October 01, 2009, 05:48:21 PM

Catch my drift?

What has this thread become?

Weegee · « **Reply #42 on:** October 03, 2009, 07:44:15 PM »

A den of Weeaboos, that's what. This is why we can't have nice things.

Kartmaster13 · « **Reply #43 on:** October 11, 2009, 08:10:07 AM »

I don't understand why Nintendo does this. I mean why did they really need to make 2 different genders for Vivian?

Mr. Wiggles · « **Reply #44 on:** October 11, 2009, 01:29:32 PM »

Cultural differences on what's acceptable to delve into in front of a wide audience.

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #45 on:** October 11, 2009, 02:18:38 PM »

Clearly, the concept of transsexuality/gender confusion is more acceptable in Japan than over here (most Adam Sandler movies aside), but I must ask: Is there also a disproportionate amount of such individuals in Japan, or can the seemingly considerable amount of transvetites, etc. in videogames/other media be attributed to the small-scale, less conservative equivalent of the American need to put multicultural people in advertisements?

Chupperson Weird · « **Reply #46 on:** October 12, 2009, 11:23:16 AM »

Actually, Japan frowns more on such people than America does in real life, but in fiction they're all over the place.

Tv_Themes · « **Reply #47 on:** October 12, 2009, 12:39:04 PM »

Quote from: Weegee on October 03, 2009, 07:44:15 PM

A den of Weeaboos, that's what. This is why we can't have nice things.

People act like "Weeaboo" is like the N-Word.

Call me one, I promise I won't get offended. :)

Weegee · « **Reply #48 on:** October 12, 2009, 01:38:11 PM »

RETURN MY BIKE YOU [darn]ED WEEABOO

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #49 on:** October 12, 2009, 04:37:45 PM »

What in the world is the linguistic root of that word, anyway?

The Chef · « **Reply #50 on:** October 12, 2009, 05:59:03 PM »

Quote from: Chupperson Weird on October 12, 2009, 11:23:16 AM

Actually, Japan frowns more on such people than America does in real life, but in fiction they're all over the place.

Why does Japan frown on so many things that pop up so often in their fiction? Are they a nation of hypocrites or something?

Chupperson Weird · « **Reply #51 on:** October 12, 2009, 09:16:34 PM »

ShadowBrain: http://pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF071-Weeaboo.gif is the first recorded instance of the word.
Chef: No idea.

Weegee · « **Reply #52 on:** October 12, 2009, 09:28:48 PM »

That's hard to believe, considering that there's no previous context. "Weeaboo" obviously meant something at the time of that comic's inception, so... yeah. It was probably originally an in-joke in some obscure forum, right?

Mr. Wiggles · « **Reply #53 on:** October 12, 2009, 09:34:29 PM »

It was used in that comic, and then some 4chan mods made it the replacement word in the filter for "wapanese". From there, it just caught on.

As for the nation of hypocrites, its mostly about the money. Pander to the basement dwellers, and they'll spend millions on little anime girl statues, CD dramas, hug pillows, and whatever else they can get out of commercialization. If you ever read some reports, you can see that kind of behavior isn't encouraged by the public.

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #54 on:** October 12, 2009, 10:51:38 PM »

Funny how niches apparently = bank in Japan, while in America...

Speaking of America, not to dip into NatDT territory, but it's kind of the pot calling the kettle black to contemplate Japan being hypocritical for letting their media glorify things they collectively disapprove of.

And CW: Yeah, I remember when someone posted that disturbing thing around here... like Weegee said, there's not really any previous context (but has that ever stopped the internet?), and yet it just seems so... right.

The Chef · « **Reply #55 on:** October 15, 2009, 07:38:17 PM »

Scratch what I said. Japan is a nation of swindlers. Can't be believe I didn't think to put it that was sooner.

Then again, they DO pride themselves on ripping off America so...

ShadowBrain · « **Reply #56 on:** October 16, 2009, 04:19:13 PM »

Are you sure you aren't thinking of China?