Fungi Forums
Video Games => Mario Chat => Topic started by: Tv_Themes on November 16, 2008, 03:21:44 PM
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First off, when he unveils himself to Mario & Peach, Peach acts like its groundbreaking for Bowser to have a son. Ugh, first off Peach, not only did he already have SIX sons, they were more than 10 years old. Second problem I have is the kids design. He's basically a Mini-Me type Bowser, Bowser Jr. wasn't a clone like Mini-Me was. I hate when character designers stereotype characters like this. Thirdly, whats up with his name? I thought it was Baby Bowser, that name is much better than Bowser Jr.
To top it off, he is in Super Mario Galaxy. Why? He isn't necessary for it, he's just being an annoying imbecile. The original Koopa Kids need to make a REAL comeback (and not appear in battle because someone who wasn't their dad sent them) and turn Bowser Jr. into a Frog.
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His name isn't Baby Bowser because Bowser himself is Baby Bowser. That's what they called him when he was a baby, hence the name.
I'll agree that the Koopalings could use a comeback, but at least Bowser Jr.'s role in SMG wasn't anything too major.
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First off, when he unveils himself to Mario & Peach, Peach acts like its groundbreaking for Bowser to have a son. Ugh, first off Peach, not only did he already have SIX sons, they were more than 10 years old.
Sunshine had pretty awful writing. I'm more annoyed that it sounds to me like Peach deduced that Bowser Jr. is Bowser's son because he called her "mama."
Second problem I have is the kids design. He's basically a Mini-Me type Bowser, Bowser Jr. wasn't a clone like Mini-Me was. I hate when character designers stereotype characters like this. Thirdly, whats up with his name? I thought it was Baby Bowser, that name is much better than Bowser Jr.
Baby Bowser is not Bowser Jr. Baby Bowser is Bowser... as a baby. Kind of like, no, exactly like how Baby Mario is Mario as a baby.
You know how Bower Jr. is Bowser's son, right? It's reasonable, then, that he should resemble his father. Then Partners in Time has Baby Bowser looking very much like Bowser Jr. would. Bowser could very accurately say to Bowser Jr. "You remind me so much of myself when I was your age." Have you ever heard anyone say something like that?
To top it off, he is in Super Mario Galaxy. Why? He isn't necessary for it, he's just being an annoying imbecile. The original Koopa Kids need to make a REAL comeback (and not appear in battle because someone who wasn't their dad sent them) and turn Bowser Jr. into a Frog.
Bowser needed a sidekick I guess. One sidekick. And the main Mario adventure games don't have the right style to use Kammy Koopa. As for the Koopalings, they'd just take away opportunities for original bosses, and they'd never have dialogue or develop personalities. And if they did they'd probably go in the drive-you-up-the-wall direction, like seven times the Bowser Jr.
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But Baby Boswer and Bowser shared screen time in the Mario party games, canon or not.
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I'm more annoyed that it sounds to me like Peach deduced that Bowser Jr. is Bowser's son because he called her "mama."
Nah. Bowser Jr. said "papa told [him his] mama was kidnapped by a bad man named Mario," which Peach replied "So you're Bowser's son?", because who else would think Mario would kidnap Peach from him?
And the whole "Bowser Jr. is crap I want Koopalings!!!!11" thing kinda died out six years ago. Like BP said once before, it's an extremely Amish way of thinking.
Bowser Jr.'s appearances in SMG were extremely brief, so be thankful.
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But Baby Boswer and Bowser shared screen time in the Mario party games, canon or not.
Dude, Mario Party/Kart/Golf/Random-sport games don't count.First off, when he unveils himself to Mario & Peach, Peach acts like its groundbreaking for Bowser to have a son. Ugh, first off Peach, not only did he already have SIX sons, they were more than 10 years old. Second problem I have is the kids design. He's basically a Mini-Me type Bowser, Bowser Jr. wasn't a clone like Mini-Me was. I hate when character designers stereotype characters like this. Thirdly, whats up with his name? I thought it was Baby Bowser, that name is much better than Bowser Jr.
To top it off, he is in Super Mario Galaxy. Why? He isn't necessary for it, he's just being an annoying imbecile. The original Koopa Kids need to make a REAL comeback (and not appear in battle because someone who wasn't their dad sent them) and turn Bowser Jr. into a Frog.
1. True.
2. True.
3. The Koopalings, meh. It'd be fine to see 3D Koopalings.
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But Baby Boswer and Bowser shared screen time in the Mario party games, canon or not.
As have Mario and Baby Mario. And Luigi and Baby Luigi. And Peach and Baby Peach. And Daisy and Baby Daisy. And Wario and Elf Wario (in Smash).
Nah. Bowser Jr. said "papa told [him his] mama was kidnapped by a bad man named Mario," which Peach replied "So you're Bowser's son?", because who else would think Mario would kidnap Peach from him?
Yeah, I know all that, but she doesn't make any effort at all to tell him, "Whoa there fat boy, I'm not your mama!!"
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Mario & Baby Mario and Etc. all shared screen time because M&L went back in time. There was never any time travelling in the MP[64] Games.
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Bowser Jr. probably makes himself sick. That's why he wears the hankerchief.
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The "back in time" scenario was not invented until way after the first appearance of the babies (Yoshi's Island) and after much use of babies in sport and party games. It has no power over what baby characters get used where.
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Here are the things that annoy me.
That there are still people who call Bowser Jr. Baby Bowser, despite the fact that it has been stated time and time again that Baby Bowser is Bowser as a baby.
Peach's part in Sunshine was so poorly written. She didn't even attempt to argue that she is not Bowser Jr.'s mama (unless she's hiding something from us). She just stood there gawking. I seriously have more respect for Peach in the RPGs where she actually puts up a fight.
BAW! BOWZR JR SUX! I WANT TEH K00PALINGS BACK!!!1 Seriously, I too would love to see the Koopalings make a return, rendered in 3D, for at least one game, but Bird Person makes a point about them getting in the way of more original bosses. Just be glad that Nintendo doesn't give all of their characters the Sonic Team treatment (when a new character is introduced in a Sonic game, they will most likely come back in future games, even if their comeback makes no sense. I'm looking at you, Shadow!)
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- Baby Bowser is the younger form of the current Bowser, seen in Yoshi's Island, Yoshi's Island DS, Yoshi's Story, and Partners in Time.
- Bowser Jr. is Bowser's eighth child, living in the present, who happens to look a lot like him. He is in Sunshine and Galaxy.
- The multicolored little Bowser-looking things in the Mario Party games, including the one you can play as in a couple of them, are Koopa Kids. (Not to be confused with Koopalings)
There's no overlap between those three categories (other than the fact that Baby Bowser in PiT uses Bowser Jr.'s design instead of Baby Bowser's, due to some apparent confusion on Alphadream's part).
As for the issue of Koopalings getting in the way of original bosses, I would support putting the Koopalings wherever multiple instances of Bowser Jr. would have been placed otherwise (NSMB minibosses, SMG monologuers). That seems like a fair balance for now.
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I'd like to see Bowser's other children in a new game. Ludwig would look so cool in 3D.
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Just watch the SMB3 cartoons and you'll see Ludwig in kind-of-3D.
I agreed with the title before I even read the post. The first time I remember hating Bowser Jr. was in Mario Party 2. But then he gained a voice and became even more annoying. If one of the Koopalings took his place, I'm sure they'd be just as annoying. Imagine if Bowser Jr. were Wendy Koopa with a voice. Or just remember Wendy from the Mario cartoons for a good enough idea. "You'll get us a stretch limo RIGHT NOOOOW!!"
Baby Bowser, by contrast, looked good and wasn't annoying.
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Bowser Jr. was not in Mario Party 2
He did not exist until the year 2002
On the GameCube
In Sunshine
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Bowser Jr. was in Mario Party 2.
- The multicolored little Bowser-looking things in the Mario Party games, including the one you can play as in a couple of them, are Koopa Kids. (Not to be confused with Koopalings)
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2Fb%2Fb9%2FMP5KoopaKids.PNG%2F250px-MP5KoopaKids.PNG&hash=e356d9a5fba1baa599742861b397cb1694798c32) =/= (https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F9%2F90%2FSMG_BowserJr.jpg%2F220px-SMG_BowserJr.jpg&hash=53e17ed02eedb00f7b13628d741292b9c819d788)
(Although the Koopa Kids were actually called "Baby Bowsers" before Mario Party 4.)
For comparison, here's Baby Bowser:
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2F3%2F37%2FBabyNinjaBowser.PNG&hash=df671f358c999e26e3bcb64e3b7deff14f5e620d)
And to confuse you, here's Baby Bowser looking exactly like Bowser Jr. in Partners in Time:
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2Fe%2Fef%2FBabybowser.jpg%2F180px-Babybowser.jpg&hash=38790b6868e66d56021a5273eb7411c488968c42)
And here's a picture of a Koopa Kid with normal colors:
(https://themushroomkingdom.net/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariowiki.com%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2Fb%2Fb4%2FMP6_KoopaKid.jpg%2F544px-MP6_KoopaKid.jpg&hash=51f517d5fd18512f726fd93642376f5ab30bd628)
To summarize: Baby Bowser has a ponytail, no horns, and spikes on his bracelets (PiT notwithstanding; YIDS returned to the YI and YS style, effectively retconning the PiT design). Bowser Jr. has a ponytail, small horns, smooth bracelets, and a bandana. Koopa Kids have large horns, normal hair, and spikes on their bracelets, and sometimes come in odd colors.
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I don't like BJ in Sunshine either (Ha, "BJ"), but I didn't find him terribly annoying in SMG or NSMB.
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Why did he wear that silly scarf in NSMB?
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Because in some of the boss battles in NewSMB, he would pull that scarf up over his mouth. That would somehow make him look tougher and grant him the ability to throw Koopa shells.
I don't care much for Bowser Jr either, and would love to see the Koopalings in 3D. BJ was tolerable in SMG, and I don't care that Baby Bowser had his voice in PiT.
I agree that any one of Jr's numerous boss appearances in New SMB (or even SMG) could have been replaced with one of the other Kids, but I don't particularly think they need speaking lines. A couple of roars/grunts, some pointing/gesturing at Mario/Luigi, and then the fight breaks out. That's it.
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He wore the bandana in NSMB for the same reason Mario wears his hat. It's part of his character design.
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Nintendo/Miyamoto/writers/etc. seem to have taken the Mario world and made it like a horrible World of Goo structure. It is such a mess now that they seem content with just hitting the reset button at the end of a game and no one in the Mushroom Kingdom seems to remember anything at all about past adventures. The only reference I remember to anything of the past in the Kingdom... pretty much ever... was in SMG when the bee Queen says something along the lines of, "Who are you.... are you a physician?" obviously referring to Dr. Mario. And remember, when I say reference I mean in dialog this time around, not visual, so don't say "OH BUT THE SMB 3 BLOCKS AND GOOMBAS AND BULLET BILLS ARE IN SMG!!!"
I'd like to take NSMB and SMG as awesome examples of the balance between original and come-back characters. NSMB had all the old bits: goombas, paratroopas, Monty Mole, Thwomps, etc., while just a few original appearances: the weird snail-armor-shell thing in World 5, etc. Oh, and I did love the fact that the spiky spike thingies that come down in rows from SMW were in NSMB. SMG had goombas (how did they get there?), bullet bills, Kamek, etc., but then turned around with a good balance of original characters: the small, weird squid thing, the spinning top thingies, etc.
What they should do is continue that, but only every other game. Introduce some originals, chill on the next game and don't really introduce in weird stuff that'd make keeping track of everyone impossible, then maybe add a few in the next game. If they keep it up with too many original characters, then Mario's world will just seem too.... I dunno... cluttered? I mean... how big is Mario's earth?! Crap!
(Oh yeah, and the Koopalings need to come back. They should've stopped right there because that'd all make sense story-wise with the exception of where "Mama Bowser" is, instead of introducing 75 billion different renditions of a bratty, little Bowser.)
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Not only did SMG have Goombas, it had different varieties: smaller ones that just became Coins if you hit them with a spin attack, larger ones that you could either stomp for a coin or spin/kick for some star bits, and the Grand Goombas which gave off star bits and keys (assuming a Luma or some other entity was locked up nearby).
I think they should do more of that too: bringing in not just a set of enemies, but different sets. It shows that they remember just like we do. The downside, though, is that there's just not much difference between the green and red Koopas in SMG, except that red shells had homing and helped you move faster than green in the water.
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Yes! That is exactly my point right there. Different versions of the oldies!
When I first noticed the two different types of Goombas, I thought..... "Nintendo, you trying to fool us and make crappier-looking goombas to throw us off-guard? Oh wait...."
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I can only assume Mario's earth is at least twice as large as ours, the same certainly holds true for the DC comics' earth.
As for the Koopalings, they'd just take away opportunities for original bosses, and they'd never have dialogue or develop personalities. And if they did they'd probably go in the drive-you-up-the-wall direction, like seven times the Bowser Jr.
A) Giant enemy drones as bosses are not original.
B) You can't prove that the Koopalings couldn't be made more original than a bunch of giant enemy drones.
Here, let me put some food in your brain:
Larry Koopa
The middle child. Rather mischievous, destructive and rebellious. Suitable given that he likes punk rock a lot. Spends all his time playing his guitar, which doubles as a sound-based weapon.
Iggy Koopa
Second youngest. He inherited the smart gene. That is to say, he's a genius, both magical and scientific. He's the one who built the mechs in Yoshi's Safari, and always has some sort of mechanical device up his proverbial sleeve. When he's cornered, he usually resorts to throwing noxious potions at you, since he's physically weak.
Lemmy Koopa
The youngest, and also the least competent. He'd much rather run away to join the circus that help his father conquer the Mushroom Kingdom. Still, his agility and balance is unmatched and usually he tries to mess with your head by playing mind games. He may very well drive you crazy if you spend too much time with him alone.
Wendy O. Koopa
Bowser's little girl, and a spoiled brat to boot. She thinks her singing voice is marvelous, but it's actually loud enough to kill your eardrums. She also specializes in high-fashion, specifically the kind meant for hurting you. Those rings she wears on her arms act as boomerang projectiles and constrictors.
Morton Koopa Jr.
He's the fat one, and a pretty big grouch. When he isn't eating, he's usually complaining about something. He also has a soft spot for punk rock like Larry, which is why he's modeled his look after Paul Stanley. Sometimes he uses his drum set as a weapon, other times he inhales huge breathes of air or streams of water and tries to spit it at you.
Roy Koopa
This kid is a beast. The biggest and the strongest, but not the smartest. He isn't very good at speaking properly. Works out a LOT. Whenever he fights he could likely take you out with one punch, and he shakes the ground whenever he jumps.
Ludwig von Koopa
The scary one. Mostly hangs out in the darkest parts of the castle playing his organ. Speaks with a thick German accent probably picked up from his organ instructor. Highly unpredictable in combat, and may resort to any dirty tactics possible, even going so far as to copy his siblings or his father's techniques. Wants to usurp the throne, very badly.
See, how was that? A lot of it is based on what I've read in promotional material, a little of it is from my own imagination in way that adds to said promotional material. I could easily see this being the norm in Paper Mario at least.
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It is such a mess now that they seem content with just hitting the reset button at the end of a game and no one in the Mushroom Kingdom seems to remember anything at all about past adventures.
That's the whole idea. The Mario universe has NO continuity for the purposes of continued experimentations and sequels. Miyamoto has even admitted this before. He doesn't want to limit his ideas because of an existing continuity.
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I could easily see this being the norm in Paper Mario at least.
Almost exactly what I'm saying: an RPG would better handle them and the main adventures would only make seven pains in the neck. But I don't think Paper Mario is right for them. Bowser is mainly comic relief in there, and it'd just be a mess if he had the Koopalings following him around all over the place.
And what the heck do you mean they can be more than enemy drones (or smaller ones--they're like halfway between Koopas and Bowser)? If we're talking RPGs, especially--PM's varied and often unpredictable bosses are way cooler than "Ahp, the first boss of the eight-chapter game, at the end of which is Bowser, is Iggy. I know all the bosses now." What do I care if they all had fanfickable personalities? That doesn't make them all so different and interesting.
Final conclusion: Ignoring Super Mario 2, it was a breakthrough when the Koopalings replaced the seven pre-Bowsers... but look where we are now--Bouldergeist, anyone? Shadow Sirens, Lord Crump. Boolossus. I'll even go as far as to praise Sunshine for Gooper Blooper, even if he and all of the game's other bosses were disgusting, puking and drooling all over everything...
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Mr. Wiggles, I'm aware of that, but it couldn't hurt continuity even in the slightest if maybe Mario or someone said somewhere in a game, "Hey, Luigi, remember when E. Gadd gave you that stupid vacuum and that was about the time I was at Isle Delfino with his F.L.U.D.D. thing?"
Mario and everyone seem to forget how events turned out in the past, who they encountered, who has helped them, betrayed them, or anything. It wouldn't hurt to give a little shout-out to times gone past. It's like they're all dogs and can only really live in the present with no idea of the future or past.
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I don't like BJ in Sunshine either (Ha, "BJ"), but I didn't find him terribly annoying in SMG or NSMB.
Really didn't care for him in NSMB. Those battles could've been like a relay with all 8 Koopalings(and yes, that includes BJ). When one Koopaling was defeated, they'd pass Peach to which other sibling was waiting and then the Koopaling with peach would run to the next castle. It would've been a great opportunity to bring all 8 of Bowser's kids into one game.
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Trainman, you say you understand, and then you immediately revert to your anti-understanding ways. There is no past or future or time or continuity at all in Mario games.
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Except there is. If there wasn't, things wouldn't reappear from game to game, and the dialog in games like Paper Mario wouldn't be so awesome.
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Mario and everyone seem to forget how events turned out in the past, who they encountered, who has helped them, betrayed them, or anything. It wouldn't hurt to give a little shout-out to times gone past. It's like they're all dogs and can only really live in the present with no idea of the future or past.
"I know Bowser is behind this! Will he ever tire of tormenting us?" ~Peach, Super Mario 64
"What?! Bowser's kidnapped Princess Peach? Again?" ~Goompapa, Paper Mario
"A strange old man in a white coat gave it to me..." ~Bowser Jr., Super Mario Sunshine
"Wait...Princess Peach? The one who gets kidnapped by Bowser, the Koopa King? The one you rescue?" ~Goombella, The Thousand-Year Door
"I tried to kidnap you a while ago, didn't I? Yeah, that didn't turn out so well, did it?" ~Kamek, Partners in Time
"I think I'll move my research to Boo Woods." ~Prof. E Gadd, Partners in Time
I mostly pulled these from memory, so they aren't the exact words, but you get the picture. There's hope. :P
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Mario games don't have a direct continuity, as Reading just proved. The only continuity is in references made throughout the game, whether they are in dialogue or not. In my opinion, Bowser Jr. looks like a very good sidekick for Bowser. Seeing one of the Koopalings standing on a doomship behind Bowser in Super Mario Galaxy wouldn't look nearly as good as Bowser Jr. standing there.
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I think it would be hard for Mario to remember the events of Luigi's Mansion too well, having been trapped in a painting the whole time. And Luigi remembering Sunshine's events would be preposterous--he wasn't even there.
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I think it would be hard for Mario to remember the events of Luigi's Mansion too well, having been trapped in a painting the whole time. And Luigi remembering Sunshine's events would be preposterous--he wasn't even there.
Don't count on it, they could pull a Lion King 1 1/2 and show that Luigi was there behind the scenes the whole time. But that's just as unlikely to happen.
Oh, and I wanted to clarify on what I said about Baby Bowser looking good: I meant the SNES Yoshi's Island version. N64 version doesn't look good.
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I think it's very likely Mario would've told Luigi all about what happened after Sunshine, or for that matter, 64. They're brothers and everything. And at the end of the first two Paper Mario games, Mario and Luigi are discussing the adventure that just ended, and it sounds like Mario and Luigi have these kind of discussions frequently.
I mean, why would Mario just not say anything about Sunshine or 64 to Luigi? What if Luigi wanted to know? :P
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Well sure, but Mario wouldn't say "remember the time this happened" if Luigi weren't there, whether he told the story or not.
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So what about the story of SMB2? That was just a dream..
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It was only alluded to being a dream. For all we know, Sub-Con actually exists and it just happens to be accessed by dreaming.
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Like Oz or a debt-free America!
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Yeah, the Oz thing was what I was going for. Makes perfect sense considering the Mushroom Kingdom is already similar to Wonderland by itself.
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And what of everyone who seems to live there? Comas?
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The whole Oz dream thing was made up by the movie.
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The Wizard of Sub-Con. Make it happen.